COUNTDOWN TO WAR

[george]

i was once told that all comedy is pain, and that is why there are so many jew and black comedians.

[GAsux]

"...for example Gulf war 1 cost around $61 Billion".

War in Iraq will cost lots of money. Point conceded.

But lets be realistic here. Any idea how much a decade of containment has cost? Do you have any idea how much has been invested in the region just in infastructure alone? There are a dozen bases in the region that were little more than a concrete slab in the middle of the desert by the end of Gulf War I. They are now some of the largest bed down facilities in the region. Guess where that money came from.

Any idea how many troops/tanks/bombs/etc have been rotated in and out of the region since 1991? Every 90-120 rotation costs shitloads of money. We're spending money every single day. IN no-fly zones, in intelligence assetts, in satellite technology, etc.

We've been pouring billions into Iraq every single year with no end in sight. Pay now, or pay later.

[FS]

We're nearly halfway through February. I'm pretty sure that either at the end of this week or sometime during the next one, "ground-breaking evidence" will pop up and an attack will be launched before there's time to properly investigate it.

[GAsux]

Well you've set yourself up quite nicely. What amazing forsight you have Miss Cleo.

Anyway, what does it matter? We bitch that there is no evidence, but at the same time dismiss any evidence presented anyway. So what's the point. Is there honestly any evidence that could be provided short of videos of Saddam lighting bomb fuses himself that would convince you?

You'll right off any forthcoming "evidence" as propaghanda regardless so why make bland predictions?

[FS]

I was just illustrating my complete loss of trust in the Bush administration. Not trying to set myself up for an "I WAS RIGHT" next week.

And with loss of trust comes loss of credibility. No, I won't believe any evidence now presented by the American government because it's too damn late. The war's been brewing for months. The only thing that could possibly convince me that Saddam is currently still producing biological weapons would be a call from the weapons inspectors, but we all know how effective they are.

[ranxer]

War is Not a Solution no matter what kind of evidence they have.
Working closely with Allies that dont have thier arms twisted behind thier back by corporate corrupted scum of the earth like we have running this administration would be ok with me.

Fascism is rolling over the peaceful, the democratic, the powerless.

War IS Terrorism and our corporate Fascists are drooling over making a mess over there.. trigger happy gw makes me sick.

the two main differences between Saddam and GW are PR and taxes.

[mburbank]

Evidence or lack thereof only matters to the administration PR machine. This war has been a forgone conclusion for a very long time.


If you're counting pennies, add to the cost of the ar the cost of the occupation, rebuilding their infrastructrure including their oil industry and running the country. A pentagon spokeperson yesterday guessed occuption time at a minimum of two years. I'm think he underestimated by, maybe, forever.

[sadie]

7!


p.s. max:

[mburbank]

DAMN IT SADIE! YOU ARE GOING TO START A WAR!!!!!

[Ronnie Raygun]

Raxner,

"War is Not a Solution no matter what kind of evidence they have."

HAHAHA!

Do the rest of you realize how pathetic this is?

Does that apply to every war or just this one?

[mburbank]

Maybe incorrect, but certainly not pathetic. Like a lot of extreme answers, I think it fits in the "What Would Jesus Do" category.

I think War is the very last answer, almost never right, almost always avoidable. And don't give me your sad WWII story. Suppose at the moment Hitler rose to power he'd been isolated by the rest of the world, suppose every effort had been made to help Jews, Gypsies and Poles escape, suppose Money had been funelled to oposition groups.

Some wars may indeed be unavoidable, but they are ALL signs of moral failure, regardless of how blame is appportioned they ALL involve brutality, murder and destruction from all participants.

It's not a football game Naldo. It's very serious business full of suffering. Take off your foam USA #1 hand, scrub the greasepaint off your face and concider seriously the souls that will be exyinguished witgh your tax money. The souls that may be saved doesn't mitigate this fact, necessity doesn't mitigate this fact, as Pilot surely learned there is no way to wash the blood off your hands. That's what War does, it taints the innocent and the guilty alike. Everyone has a right to come to their own conclusions about if this war or any war needs to be or not. No one has a right to be cavalier about it.

[ranxer]

ronnie: Does that apply to every war or just this one?

i think mburbank answered more calmly than i can.

women and children will be killed by our effort to "liberate iraq"
thats our flag being drenched in blood for the lie that its for the iraqis, or against terrorism(whatever they're both lies).. not only will they be killed, but the aftermath of vaporized depleted uranium is very similar to nuclear fallout that could be considered a genocidal attack on who ever might be attempting to survive in the region.

This war will reduce security in america.. will create more people with intent to do damage to our country and risk our entire economy. Sure the press will show something other than that, but its just pr not the truth.

Ill be a broken record on this for ill say again, if we really wanted to reduce terrorism we would stop selling weapons of mass destruction. We would not be the worlds #1 profiteer of Depleted Uranium weapons. We would reduce the power of our business to take advantage of non-democratic slave labors to make a buck. if we really cared about reducing terrorism we would address the injustice in the world with something other than the barrel of a gun. Granted many are trying, but most of Corporate America is resisting granting democratic rights to all every step of the way.

[Ronnie Raygun]

"women and children will be killed by our effort to "liberate iraq""

They are being killed as we speak.

"thats our flag being drenched in blood for the lie that its for the iraqis, or against terrorism(whatever they're both lies).."

Admit it. You just don't like Bush....you know Conservatism is winning....you're just playing a game....and losing and you can't stand it. We are only upholding a U.N. resolution....in fact 17 resolutions over a 12 years period all of which have been broken by Saddam. There is no other answer. You say give peace a chance...we have....you said Bush should go to the U.N......he did...Now you are saying that Saddam should be allowed to develop nuclear weapons. Your credibility sucks.

"not only will they be killed, but the aftermath of vaporized depleted uranium is very similar to nuclear fallout that could be considered a genocidal attack on who ever might be attempting to survive in the region."

What the hell are you talking about? "Vaporized depleted uranium"?

"This war will reduce security in america.. will create more people with intent to do damage to our country and risk our entire economy."

False. The terrorists are doing all they can to destroy us now. They must be stopped and that's what we are doing. As long as we keep doing what we are doing we will win.

"Sure the press will show something other than that, but its just pr not the truth."

Yes! YOU have all the answers.

"Ill be a broken record on this for ill say again, if we really wanted to reduce terrorism we would stop selling weapons of mass destruction. We would not be the worlds #1 profiteer of Depleted Uranium weapons."

Give examples.

"We would reduce the power of our business to take advantage of non-democratic slave labors to make a buck."

What does that have to do with terrorism?

"if we really cared about reducing terrorism we would address the injustice in the world with something other than the barrel of a gun."

So we should have tried to reason with Al Queada? War in Afghanistan was wrong? PLEASE ANSWER!

"Granted many are trying, but most of Corporate America is resisting granting democratic rights to all every step of the way."

Are you ready!

.....Corporate America helps provide the American dream to the masses.

[mburbank]

Naldo; Damn good thing you adressed all your irate posturing elsewhere because this is certainly not a game to me. It obviously is to you, as you frequently assert conservatives are 'winning'.

This is life. There is no damn 'winning'. "winning" is for checkers, horse races, message boards and your hideously simplified religious lense where heaven is a prize.

[Vibecrewangel]

Thank you Max.

[mburbank]

Vibe likes me. I win. HAH!

[ItalianStereotype]

meh. :/

[Crimson Ghost]

I'll see you all in hell.

[ranxer]

Ronnie: ....you said Bush should go to the U.N......he did...Now you are saying that Saddam should be allowed to develop nuclear weapons. Your credibility sucks.

i didnt say that bush should threaten the U.N. i said he should work with the U.N.
Develop Nuclear weapons!? that's quite a stretch.. We have Nukes and Nukes and More Nukes.. Saddam cant make much of a move without us burning him out in a heartbeat.. let the U.N. Ask for help why do we have to pressure the U.N. to move on saddam? its because our corporate regime wants more bases and more power over the oil.. control of the middle east oil is key to the New World Order.. and thats the NWO that GW has talked about.

"women and children will be killed by our effort to "liberate iraq""

Ronnie: They are being killed as we speak.

so we should go ahead and accept collateral damage to "liberate" these folks you say are being killed? I dont agree. War is Terrorism and i dont agree that it will stop the killing of women and children.

Ronnie: Admit it. You just don't like Bush....you know Conservatism is winning....you're just playing a game....and losing and you can't stand it. We are only upholding a U.N. resolution....in fact 17 resolutions over a 12 years period all of which have been broken by Saddam.

no way bud, my feelings about bush are irrelevant. I call a criminal a criminal i dont care what family history he/she has. I'm reacting to actions and stated intentions. I even think many "conservatives" agree that bush has gone too far. I'd like to stay on the issues even though i stray quite a bit. Bush has used religion as a tool(dead baby political football), patriotism as a tool(nationalistic rhetoric from a chickenhawk!), and fear as a tool(9-11 worked very well for him).

Ronnie: What the hell are you talking about? "Vaporized depleted uranium"?

our "secret weapon" in gw1 was shells tipped with depleted uranium that upon contact with armor or rock or sand the depleted uranium(thats what we're doing with a lot of our nuclear waste) cuts through rock, armor etc and vaporizes creating a toxic waste puff that is similar to nuclear fallout. I've heard that we are selling more of this stuff than any other country but ill admit that i'm having trouble finding a lot on who exactly is profiting from it.. our government is selling to some eu countries and a spinoff company from honeywell "alliant"(?) is making them.. France seems to be doing a lot of the shell preparation.. they are pretty darn good at doing the wrong thing with nuclear waste.. i dont understand why they are buying from us when they have more plants over there but this stuff is anti-life in general leaving toxic wastelands where they use it.. worse than land mines. here's a link: http://multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/mm0196.04.html
here's a vid: http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/rokkethree28.ram


"We would reduce the power of our business to take advantage of non-democratic slave labors to make a buck."

Ronnie: What does that have to do with terrorism?

Corporate injustice leads to folks organizing labor unions and resistance, but since our companies are located in third world countries where the people have no rights thier union organizers get Killed.. do the corporations give the worker rights? No. Do they get brought up on charges for being complicit in killing union organizers? No. so if there is no lawful justice available what is left for these peoples struggles to turn to? its like putting a racoon in a bag and calling it a terrorist when it bites you. they are up against a wall because our corporations have taken advantage of thier lack of power.. they turn to terroism against corporations etc. and ultimately the U.S. the origin of the corporations.. GRANTED many countries are engaged in these corporate tactics of profit so its not just us.. to reduce terrorism we need to increase justice for workers.. DESPARATION IS A MAJOR CAUSE OF VIOLENCE .. reduce desparation and we reduce violence.. there are many parallels.

War in Afghanistan WAS Wrong.. We helped set up the Taliban, we helped train the Taliban, We helped Arm the Taliban, they were supposed to be one of our lap dogs in the mid east .. then when they stopped cooperating with our corporations for a pipeline(cheneys company) to get oil from the Caspian we looked into other ways to get them to "cooperate" they said they didnt know where Osama was so we went to war with them!? first even if they knew where he was and removed to hand him over War was not the solution. we dropped TONS(literally) of DU waste in thier country and killed what 10thousand afghanis? many of which were innocent.. again forming new enemies for the US.. that is leading with the barrel of a gun. Instead we could have worked with security people throughout the world and refused to join in the terrorism but it wasnt about osama it was about the oil and power gains.

Ronnie: .....Corporate America helps provide the American dream to the masses.

yea how many jobs lost this week? how many pensions have they defrauded this week? how many health plans have they canceled this week? Corporations fight our rights every day. The only rights they honor are the rights that are granted by a lawsuit.. even if the rights were on paper in the first place we have to sue to get them enforced hald the time.

[Baalzamon]

Why hasnt enyone mentioned North Korea today?

and an even better question, why is everyone in the bush administration avoiding mentioning North Korea?

We've got these two members of the "Axis of Evil"

one country:

1. May have nuclear, biological or chemical weapons, but wont give a straight answer if you ask them and resist search attempts.

2. May or may not have a means of delivering these weapons that they may or may not have.

4. Ruled by a crazy dictator, who pulled some shit about 10 years ago and got his ass kicked. since then has spent most of his time trying to prevent inspectors from searching for weapons that may or may not exist.

5. Would get smacked down instantly if he tried to do anything to anybody, and is well aware of this.

The other:

1. Has blatantly pulled out of their arms agreements and has brought a nuclear program back online, with a big fuck you to anyone who says otherwise.

2. Is known to posess missiles to deliver these weapons.

3. Has been known to sell their military technology at every opportunity, to anyone with the cash.

4. Some of these missiles may be able to reach north america.(big on all the major the news stations today)

5. Is a communist dictatorship with an army of over 1 million people.



Now, I'm not saying that we should go to war with either of them. But can any of you honestly try to tell me that the first one is the bigger threat? If you where the president of the U.S.A. who would you be more worried about, and focus your energies on?(in whatever form that might be)

Why are the war-drums beating for Iraq, a country which has generally sat there and done nothing(relatively speaking) for the last 12 years? some would say that 12 years of diplomacy havent worked, so war is necessary. I ask you, what has he done in those 12 years that calls for war? A bit of dishonesty with the U.N, and some all round general evil dictator stuff. Nothing that would send us marching off desperately to war with any other asshole dictator in the world, whether we beleive they may have weapons of mass destruction or not.

And the Weapons of mass destruction issue seems to be the driving force in the push for war. Well I have yet to see any indication that Saddam would suddenly start using such weapons, even if he had them. The first middle eastern city he nuked or saturated with anthrax spores would send the whole U.N on his ass, France Germany and Russia right on side, and he knows this. Oh, but he went apeshit 12 years ago you say? sure he did, but this is today.

North Korea is known to be actively pursuing nuclear arms if they dont have them already, and I dont know about the rest of you, but I'm just a little bit more worried about them, from a personal safety standpoint.

G.W. wants the U.N. to show that they matter? then the U.N. nations should tell Bush to shove Iraq up his ass, and shift the debate to what should be done about N. Korea. G.W. doesnt like it? he can take his ball and go home, and shut the fuck up and let everyone else handle it.

Unfortunately the rest of the world finds it much easier to follow the leader. I find that very sad and disturbing. G.W., by taking over the process and directing it to his own ends, is driving the U.N. into the state of insignificance that he was so adamant in warning them to avoid back when this mess started.

It is by acting as the councill of nations that they are supposed to be, and not by being the U.S.'s bitch lap dog, that the U.N. will avoid such a fate, and I fear that the world doesnt have the balls for it, even all together.

[Baalzamon]

Almost forgot....


6!

:/

[ranxer]

bAALZ: The first middle eastern city he nuked or saturated with anthrax spores would send the whole U.N on his ass, France Germany and Russia right on side, and he knows this. Oh, but he went apeshit 12 years ago you say? sure he did, but this is today.

:LOL

YEA! NO DOUBT!!!!

here's a guess why North Korea hasnt been mentioned, um, often

and this is just a guess,

cause im not sure about the geology of North Korea...

Maybe, its that there's oil in Iraq.?

[Baalzamon]

egads! he has oil!!!!?????? this changes everything!

5!

hurry up and countdown people, we gots to get that oil!

[roonTing]

"our "secret weapon" in gw1 was shells tipped with depleted uranium that upon contact with armor or rock or sand the depleted uranium(thats what we're doing with a lot of our nuclear waste) cuts through rock, armor etc and vaporizes creating a toxic waste puff that is similar to nuclear fallout."

Depleted Uranium tipped weapons are used because they are more dense than other metals, thereby making them more effective at piercing armor. The very fact that it is DEPLETED means that it is NOT radioactive in any way.


BAALZ... People fear the unknown. When you know about something you can face it, when you have no idea, you don't know what to expect. The unknown is much higher priority than the known by common sense and default. Is war avoidable... maybe. Does war change things...maybe. Just remember you can protest becuase people gave the ultimate sacrafice for you to have that right. And THAT is what America is about in the end.

[GAsux]

Heres the thing about DU rounds. The reason DU rounds are effective is because once they pierce the armor, they bounce around inside like a ping pong ball (dont ask me to explain the science of it because I don't know, I just know that's what they do). They are more effective because you get more bang for your buck than a round that pierces straight through.

As for the effects of DU, for every documented study that you could provide which says causes all the horrible things you've said, to the scale you've proposed, I can provide studies that say there is no effect. As far as I am concerned, that's a push. It's not clear either way. I'll even go so far as to concede that I'm sure DU is not healthy. Niether is smog caused by cars, which can be tied to millions of deaths every year. I'm quire sure that people aren't falling over and dying every day as a result of spent DU shells.


I think there are a lot of reasons Korea is being handled differently,, and I'll readily concede that oil is one of them. N. Korea plays nowhere near the important economic role Iraq does. Further, I am willing to bet that the administration is taking N. Koreas actions as a bluff. One might argue that the Koreans might think they have nothing to lose. That's true. But they also have nothing to gain. In the long term, initiating a conflict will do them no good.

Further, a closer study of the condition of N. Korea is quite telling. They do in fact have relatively sophisticated ballistic missiles. However, the ability and will to fight of their "million man army" is vastly overrated, as most experts agree. A majority of those million are foreced to serve, get paid little or nothing, and are freezing and starving to death. Logistically they are not capable of carrying out the kind of campaign necessary to do any real damage. If the Koreans moved right now, they'd be in Seoul in a few hours. A few hours later, they'd be dead.

So anyway, again, I'm not trying to sound like Ronnie here. I'm simply trying to make the case that between Ronnie's blind conservatism and Ranxers sometimes fanatical liberality, there exists some middle ground.