Free Will and determinism and...

[meatshoe]

...several other 'isms I don't think they have words for yet:

Embrace the Horror!

Just thinking about this gave me a splitting headache.

[CaptainBubba]

Why?

The autonomous universe argument is nothing new and generally anyone can come to that conclusion on their own with enough rational thought. When I was 12 I realized that if I rewound time and "played" it again everything would either be the same or different. If its the same then everything is predetermined. If its different then everything is random. Either way it disproves free will. Come on.

Its not very complex and really its not horrible at all. Its the one saving grace I have for immortality of some nature since it suggests my conciousness could somehow be kept in tact since it is after all just a collection of atoms. I have no idea how but hey it gives me hope.

[The One and Only...]

Originally Posted by CaptainBubba

If its the same then everything is predetermined. If its different then everything is random.

Not necessarily. Things could occur in exactly the same way by a random process.

[CaptainBubba]

Go fuck yourself.

[sspadowsky]

This became boring before I even finished reading the thread title.

[The One and Only...]

Originally Posted by CaptainBubba

Go fuck yourself.

So if you wrap your universe-blasting penis around yourself enough times, can you suck the head?

[Sethomas]

Things could occur in exactly the same way by a random process.

Okay, let's look at it this way. Let's say a typical atom faces 100,000 orbital shifts a second with a 50/50 chance probability. What is .5^100,000? I fucking small number. That's one second, and there is something like 10^35 atoms on the earth. What do you think the odds are that everything will churn out the same way twice?

So, no, your idea is so stupid it hurts. Fortunately, I'm a determinist.

[The One and Only...]

I never said it was likely, I said it was possible.

Plus, you need to go far more fundamentally than atoms or physics.

[Sethomas]

It's not impossible that I could quantum barrier tunnel from Bloomington, IN into Elsa Zylberstein's bedroom, but given the raw probability of it all, it's rationally equivalent to impossible. So, you're still pretty much wrong on all counts.

Sure, go beyond atoms to quarks. But what exactly do you mean about going beyond physics? The whole point of it is that the only thing beyond physics--the most elementary science--is God, should it exist.

[Rosenstern]

Battle of the Pipe Suckers '05! Yeah, Bitches!

[CaptainBubba]

More importantly its irrelevant if by a random process you arrived at the same results because the point I'm making is in the processes available to logic. You still only have two possible natures of reality. All OAO is pointing out is a very very asinine mathematical technicality. I can only assume his motivations stem from believing there is a soul who reads these messageboards and will think better of him for pointing it out.

Also, man, thanks for pointing out again how ridiculous I'm being with that penis thread. I dunno what I was thinking man. Its not really that big.

[ArrowX]

Hey guys the Universe is Horro....HEY I CAN FIND MY GRADUATING CLASS!

[kellychaos]

big penis threads

[kahljorn]

The whole point of it is that the only thing beyond physics--the most elementary science--is God

[The One and Only...]

Metaphysics, Seth.

[CaptainBubba]

Mind giving me a brief synopsis of how "metaphysics" work again OAO? Since you must be so well versed in its mechanics seeing as how you expect Seth to factor them in.

[Rosenstern]

That story changed my life! Thanks goodness I'm totally limited to what chemical processes that started at the Big Bang and have continued since have in store for me! Ya know what?! I'm gonna go commit mass killings and rapes, wipe off my knife and dick, and then blame it all on chemical processes. Yeah!

[CaptainBubba]

I thought you said "wipe my knife off with my dick" at first and I was like, "cool!", but then I re-read it and I was like, "awwww".

[Rosenstern]

Imagine how amused you'll be when you are but a lifeless collection of atoms and compounds fallen from my blade, ready to continue your journey you started at the ALMIGHTY BIG BANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(translation:"FUCK DETERMINISM")

[Sethomas]

Well, what's your alternative to determinism? A soul based on quantum probability? "Who would want free will if it were nothing more than an internal coin-flip?"-Daniel Wegner.

And sorry OAO, I can't believe I confused theology and metaphysics. Those are like, way different.

[CaptainBubba]

Determinism doesn't alleviate social and biological responsibility. Its basically a pointless bit of truth. One of those philosophical properties of existence that only matter when your gross pothead friend decides hes smart and mumbles incoherently about it for 10 seconds before falling face first into a steel railing.

Using determinism as a reason to pursue hedonistic activities is not a logical argument. Because determinism means there is a single autonomous chain of events,any action taken against your pursuit of killing people or whatever it is you youngins get kicks out of these days also falls into this chain of events.

In other words, understanding determinism and realizing it is most likely the truth, doesnt change anything.

[ziggytrix]

You'll never know the answer and talking all pedantic does not impress the ladies!! Focus on what your life is, not the how or the why!

And buy my motivational series: <link deleted spammar whore!> only $9.95 per tape.

[Dr. Boogie]

Originally Posted by sspadowsky

This became boring before I even finished reading the thread title.

Agreed. The only time I've been able to listen to the debate over free will vs. determinism is when it's in "Legacy of Kain" format, and even that had vampires and bloody explosions.

[kellychaos]

Seeing as the 50-50 shots will all culminate in an result that is rougly similiar in the end, does that leave us with an inifinite number of parallel coin-flips vying for the finish of the race?

[Sethomas]

Umm. No. Sure, electrons don't have much sway in global politics. But think of polar attractions between ova and spermazoids. Say Hitler got a different zygote, can you imagine history being any different in the least? It's a huge nature versus nurture argument, but I think it wins.