How bad is the Hammas victory?

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by I, fuzzbot.

In fact, it seems to make a lot of sense to me that Hamas would win.

I mean, does "the world" think the Islamic world can continue to politically take it up the ass forever?

Care to elaborate? Palestinian Arabs have been victimized by the Islamic world as much as by anybody.

[Geggy]

Media says it's terrorism when Palestine do it. Media says it's not terrorism when Israel do it.

Abcdxx, the article I read about hamas's past did mentioned the fact he received financial aid from Israel in the past. It also claimed they never had a falling out. Wasn't sure if it was true or just a blatant lie. Alex Jones

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

You have to be a total bozo to apply the tired old feud analogy to what's happening.

keep tellin yourself that.

This conflict was thrust on them.

yes, that certainly is their side of things. a neutral observer would probably say that's an oversimplified and unrealistic view of history, but with a steady diet of the right propaganda you can believe almost anything.

[Abcdxxxx]

Holy shit ZIggy, you have the sophistication of an aged Ranxer. The majority of Israel's population were born in the region. You can substantiate yourself, but you won't.

Speaking of Ranxer types...

Geggy, Alex Jones is some militia sympathiser idiot, and the worst source on anything vaguely connected to Jews. What I'm sure he doesn't explain, is that it was illegal at the time to negotiate with the PLO. Leftists were trying to push their hand, by funding opposition groups (as history tells us, it's a bad strategy for the Western World, eh?) who would provide aid within their own communities. They were looking for somone to represent moderate Palestinian policies. Leftists also wanted to provide relief aid to Palestinians, and the other options were worse, at the time. Hamas was not a political organization back then. They came out of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is the source of most of these groups, good and bad. Israel has always had the policy of double dealing with enemies (such as Iran), and as the Knesset is filled with various feuding Ideologies (including Arabs) who have different phillosophies on how to approach issues. Thats why Israel armed and trained troops for the Palestinian Authority (who arms their enemy without a cease fire!?), that's why Barghoutti, the convicted, and imprisoned leader of Fatah party was allowed to give a political address supporting his party in elections, while in Jail last week. Israel hasn't had contact with Hamas since the 80's and the air strikes which killed Rantisi and Yassir were VERY real. Now I'm being up front with you even though I know you're insane enough to take this to be a concession of some Zionist conspiracy controlling the world.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

And the REALLY retarded part is that if you ask either side, it's ALL the other side's fault.

ABC's implying that.

Let's all watch him try to deny it.

[Abcdxxxx]

No I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on how victimized Muslims are by "the world".

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

No I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on how victimized Muslims are by "the world".

You REALLY haven't been reading what I've been writing in previous posts if that is what you think I said.

You intentionally misinterpreting text is not shocking at all, though.

[Abcdxxxx]

Do you talk about anything else besides MISINTERPRETATIONS or is that your excuse for everything? I qouted you direct, and I'll quote you again....

In fact, it seems to make a lot of sense to me that Hamas would win.

I mean, does "the world" think the Islamic world can continue to politically take it up the ass forever?

Aww cute. Those genocidal maniacs brag about Al-Banna almost as much as you do, by the way. Yeah so, let's forget "the world" for a minute, and let's talk about Arafat's Palestinian cruxifictions, Saudi Arabia, and others revoking citzenship of all Palestinians, Egypt refusing to take in refugees, and demanding Israel remove the housing they built for them. Let's talk about the largest death tolls of Palestinian Arabs have been at the hands of other Arabs. So if by "world" you mean, their own people...then sure, run your fat lip some more.

Fuck moral equivalency.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Do you talk about anything else besides MISINTERPRETATIONS I qouted you direct, and I'll quote you again....

With you? No. Because that's pretty much the only thing you're good at. I'm obviously not the only one who has this problem with you. You like to put things in people's mouths, and then write up a post that's designed to have as many boots aimed at your head as possible, and then claim to be "challenging their opinions."

With WHAT?

You're fucking sad. Certainly life has more to offer you than this witless existence.

or is that your excuse for everything?

Unlike your "it's 5 AM and I'm tired", it's not an excuse. It's a fact that you have to wake up to: You don't make sense because your posts are brimming with the bullshit that you've piled up in your abnormally small head from the Internet.

Aww cute. Those genocidal maniacs brag about Al-Banna almost as much as you do, by the way.

Where did I brag about him? I mentioned him in a post. That's not 'bragging,' that's called making a point - something you don't know how to do without relying on skewed material. You didn't get the reference I made to him, meaning you hardly know anything about the guy. Googling him won't do, you little shit.

Let's talk about the largest death tolls of Palestinian Arabs have been at the hands of other Arabs. So if by "world" you mean, their own people...then sure, run your fat lip some more.

Were you asleep when I said that the West is merely a bystander in all of this? WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE, SWEETNESS.

Fuck moral equivalency

Whoa, there. Big words for such a small man.

[Abcdxxxx]

Get off my dick, and say something to the point. Agree with me or explain why you don't, but stop prattling on about ME. I'm not your boyfriend. Get over it fanboy. Respond to what I'm saying, and not how I'm saying it. Do you even have that ability? I'm sorry you can't keep up. I speak to larger points, because your shit bores me. I've had these conversations a billion times, and you're not funny, you ain't clever, and you sure as hell aren't informed. You're lucky this isn't the Gong Show or this shit would be sounding like the time Rerun tried to bootleg the Doobie Brothers.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

I'm not your boyfriend.

aw

and you're not funny

aw

you ain't clever

aw

and you sure as hell aren't informed.

aw

You're lucky this isn't the Gong Show or this shit would be sounding like the time Rerun tried to bootleg the Doobie Brothers.

Your juvenile sniping is getting more and more girly.

I speak to larger points, because your shit bores me.

I see the likes of you week in, week out. The kind of people who don't have a way of expressing themselves in a cogent, reasoned manner, so resort to the kind of backward mudslinging you seem to love so much.

But no end of spurious, irrelevant posturing will ever stop you having to face up to who you are and what you've become.

Good luck anyhow.

[Geggy]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Geggy, Alex Jones is some militia sympathiser idiot, and the worst source on anything vaguely connected to Jews.

For this I agree with you...he's all in it for the dollar. Just another typical american entertainer who is a money grubbing chiseler....just like me!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

a neutral observer would probably say that's an oversimplified and unrealistic view of history, but with a steady diet of the right propaganda you can believe almost anything.

What might that neutral observer say about the situation?

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Holy shit ZIggy, you have the sophistication of an aged Ranxer. The majority of Israel's population were born in the region. You can substantiate yourself, but you won't.

And the majority of Palenstenians were born in, what, Quebec???

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Many were probably born in Jordan, as well as other places. But that's not really the point.

You never really hear anybody question whether or not Palestinians are from palestine. Most of the time, the argument is presented as an occupier versus the occupied. Jews, maybe from Europe or Russia, decided they wanted some beach front property and thought a slice on the Mediterranean would be nice. I think it's that perspective that makes people remind us that Jews have always been there, and were in fact all over the Middle East.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

Many were probably born in Jordan, as well as other places.

That's still in the "region" he's speaking of. So the point he's trying to make is neither here nor there.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Jordan is its own distinct country (in fact, initially intended to be the Palestinian state, no?).

I know anecdotal stuff is lame, but i had a buddy in college who was born in Jordan. He had family in Jordan, yet he described himself as Palestinian. I think you see a lot of this, particularly in the West Bank, which is why it's unfair to question the geography of Jews in Israel, IMO.

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

What might that neutral observer say about the situation?

shit, sorry i missed that.

i doubt a neutral observer would say "poor Israel, they have been blameless and thrust into this terrible situation despite having ever done anything to escalate it."

but i don't really know that - i'm certainly no expert and i won't pretend to be able to read the minds of political leaders. i saw a great PBS special where they had cameras at a meeting between palestinian and israeli big wigs filmed right around the time Arafat was under house arrest in his compound. it was fairly enlightening, fairly neutral (in my opinion), and i got the impression that the current powers that be on BOTH sides over there aren't as interested in peace as they are in making sure they get a better deal than the other guy.


but back off-subject, what's really wierd to me is that ABC brought up the whole geography of the jews point at all, as though it had ANYTHING to do with what I was talking about. my stupid feud analogy is only STRENGTHED by the fact that both these groups have been in the middle east as long as either of them can remember.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

I know anecdotal stuff is lame, but i had a buddy in college who was born in Jordan. He had family in Jordan, yet he described himself as Palestinian.

That's their identity, you can never expect them to be stripped away from it. Bahrain has a lot of Palestinians who were born in Bahrain, own Bahraini passports, and have never been to Palestine, yet they pride themselves on being Palestinians. A lot of our high school teachers and university professors come from Iraq and Palestine, and have been living in Bahrain in order to escape the madness. Even if they're married to Bahrainis and have spent enough time in Bahrain to consider themselves citizens of the country, they'll say "I'm an Iraqi" or "I'm a Palestinian" whenever asked.

[ziggytrix]

Nationalism is for faggots.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

You should read some of Adeed Dawisha's articles and books about Arab Nationalism in the 20th century, it's very fascinating.

[Abcdxxxx]

There were posts made suggesting that Jews got involved out of choice. That their motivation was a seperatist one...or just trying to be better then the other man.

The reality is that the majority of Israel's population houses refuseniks, native sabras, and indigenous North Africans born to the land. They didn't "get involved', they were born with enemies by the sheer fact that they were born Jewish. A great number of these people couldn't gain citizenship anywhere else. That's not a conscious will to feud for no reason, that's trying to co-exist and survive. What was unintentionally inferred is the tired old "Jews are occupiers, and collinized the region" argument followed by "Zionists aren't even really the same Jews who were there in 650CE".

More then half of Jordan is Palestinian, and up until the late 70's few if any Arabs had a Palestinian identity, as Palestine was only a territory. The movement for their nationalism applies a double standard. The majority of their leadership are Egyptian, for example. When the Popular Liberation Front became the Palestinian Liberation Organization, it was probably a gesture they wanted to get involved. Aside from Israel's hilltop youth (which is a tiny recent phenomenon) I can't think of a worse way to describe Israelis then "they wanted to get involved".

[ziggytrix]

They didn't "get involved', they were born with enemies by the sheer fact that they were born Jewish.

Yeah, and a couple of Hatfields didn't really wanna fight the McCoy's but then a McCoy shot their big brother, and well, they HAVE to defend themselves against these sorts of actions.

It's a fucking vicious circle with the only constant being a bullet or a bomb at the focal center. Any notion of 'blame' falls squarely on the guy pulling the trigger or pushing the button - not his brother, not his cousin, not even his dead great-great-great-grandfather. I am fully aware that you disagree, but that doesn't change my beliefs one bit. I'm sorry that's the way it is, I really am.

[Abcdxxxx]

I can't think of a less apt description of the conflict then "they don't even know why they're fighting anymore".

You just need to put it in simplified terms so you can wrap your head around it, and come to a conclusion that feels impartial, with equal blame. Gumdrops for you, but that's just you acknowledging you really don't grasp the situation, and throwing your hands up.

[ziggytrix]

No, that's me providing another uselessly oversimplified alternative to the uselessly oversimplified "it's all their fault".

That's not me throwing my hands up, inasmuch as that's me saying if God were real, He'd smite down every single asshole who killed in His name.