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  #51  
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Old Dec 10th, 2010, 11:07 AM       
Listen, all that I'm saying is that if a country is irresponsible enough to choose communism, then it is our duty as the United States to correct them.
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  #52  
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Old Dec 10th, 2010, 11:17 AM       
I think our own Secretary of State who encouraged US diplomats to illegally gather info on UN personnel and their foreign constituents should at least be fired. Of course I am a little bias on this topic because I think she is a dumb bitch anyway and that hiring her in the first place was one of the worst things Obama ever did.
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Old Dec 10th, 2010, 01:27 PM       
I'm pretty impressed with Pent for looking at the end results. Of course everyone has a different ending, but most people only see what they can immediately put in their greedy little hands, and that is exactly what the world leaders count on.
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Old Dec 10th, 2010, 08:32 PM       
Why have transparency of Government anyway? its not like people are smart enough to make use of the information. it'd probably just cause fake internet scandal after fake internet scandal and people would get all worked up about shit that doesn't really matter like, "DID YOU HEAR THE GOVERNMENT KILLED ALL THE PUPPIES IN EGYPT."
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Old Dec 11th, 2010, 07:10 AM       
First and foremost, I am enjoying this discussion immensely. A ton of good stuff was said in the last 24 hours and I am sorry I missed out on it till now

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
That's actually a good question. What I think will be the result to 'all of this' is some more leaked information on large banking corporations, the eventual shutting down of wikileaks, and perhaps new laws in some countries preventing it from happening again and making it illegal. I would also say that the positive result is that more people around the globe will have less trust in the political and economic systems which supposedly serve their needs, and perhaps be more inclined to not take everything their government says or does as right and truthful.

While I maintain that not much of anything will happen to anyone, I think people already don't trust their government, so this whole expose aspect was pointless other then to provide specific examples. The only thing wikileaks did was give the world more reason to hate America, I won't go into why this hurts the common man as I covered my viewpoint on this earlier, but I will again reiterate that this is bad and at the very least, I don't see that anything good can come from this in respect to the common man.
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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
You know, I never actually brought up punishment, and I don't see it as a likely outcome anyhow. You're right in thinking that a trial in the US for anyone committing political or war crimes or some such would be a white wash.

No, I didn't say "people who commit a crime, no matter where they commit it need to have it done in their country" or thereabouts, I said that Assange hasn't done anything illegal, BUT out Prime Minister has insinuated that he has, calling his actions criminal, but not bothering to tell us what crimes. I said that if he has broken Australian laws then he should at least be told what the charges are and given a chance to defend against them, rather than just have the label of CRIMINAL stuck on him and hunted down for the US governments behalf. If, however, people do commit international crimes, such as war crimes, then I think that the UN is capable of handling the trial. Well, better than anyone else at the moment. This has gotten off topic though, as neither I nor Blasted Child have mentioned anything about bringing any criminals to justice.
But how can you say Assange starting all this is not an international crime while another kind of espionage is? Assange is the spearhead for this mess, and what he did is orchestrate an internet espionage ring. This isn't journalism, if he really wanted this info to be exposed because of an altruistic belief, then by all means he should have sent it to a media outlet. The fact that he made his own site supports my belief that he is a fame hog. I know you think that the results of this fame (his life being under constant threat) disproves my theory, but I disagree with that. People all the time get something they wished for without any foreknowledge of the consequences, only to realize that what they wished for was more hassle than they believed possible. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it is a proverb for a reason.


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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
I don't understand this. I will say however that US ambassadors, diplomats, spies, military generals and other ranks... I don't think they get voted in and out every few years. But I don't really know what you are saying here.
These people you listed take their orders from our elected officials, and it is rare for a member of the military to go maverick (though it can happen, hence why we have Court Martials). Those elected offficials rarely last more than a term these days because as a country we have been swinging back and fourth politically every 4 years for the past decade.


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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
I think we are beyond viewing the Iraq war as a strive for 'justice'. Perhaps weapons of mass destruction..?
This is a separate topic altogether. Though as an aside Bush did keep saying repeatedly we are coming to inspect for years. The desert is a big place and there was plenty of time to bury and hide anything incriminating.


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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Anyway, again, nobody is talking about justice. We are talking about the rights of citizens to know what their government is up to. Should Saddam have been allowed to keep his torture secret and classified? The gassing of Kurds?
These things were public though. These things were the counterargument of people who were supporting the war when the WMDs were not there. This is exactly what I mean when i said look at what could happen. We had multiple 'reasons for justice' to go into Iraq, but as it turns out that was a huge mistake.


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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Should the Watergate scandal have been kept classified?
We had press with integrity in those days, or at least press without a glaring political agenda. You would be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't) how much stuff does not get revealed in a timely fashion, or just gets glossed over on page 10 of the NY Times because to bring attention to it does not fit the agenda of the news source.


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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
We're talking about the transparency of government, and you are bringing up arguments against punishing people.
Because I am talking results. It takes wisdom to see that everything has a result and takes even more wisdom to exercise caution when you act. Revealing everything would bring about a shit storm of epic proportions, I don't think you realize just how bad it would be, and there would be a world wide ripple effect as a result of sudden worldwide government transparency.

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Originally Posted by Tadao View Post
Of course everyone has a different ending, but most people only see what they can immediately put in their greedy little hands, and that is exactly what the world leaders count on.
I think this sentence is the best thing said on this topic. Things happen when you do something as simple as the "TA DA!" and pull back the curtain reveal on something as complicated as world politics. The big picture I laid out in my posts may not be exactly what happens, but something will certainly happen, and it is a good bet that something will bad for all concerned. The big picture is important and very few people want to look at it.

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Originally Posted by kahljorn View Post
Why have transparency of Government anyway? its not like people are smart enough to make use of the information. it'd probably just cause fake internet scandal after fake internet scandal and people would get all worked up about shit that doesn't really matter like, "DID YOU HEAR THE GOVERNMENT KILLED ALL THE PUPPIES IN EGYPT."
There's a joke here wrapped around a very lucid point. Most people would look at the things in these reports and scream for justice without thinking what happens after the punishment. That's why I feel classified information should remain so in many cases, not all cases, but in many cases. Most people couldn't handle transparent government
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  #56  
Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Dec 11th, 2010, 08:33 AM       
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Originally Posted by Pentegarn View Post

But how can you say Assange starting all this is not an international crime while another kind of espionage is? Assange is the spearhead for this mess, and what he did is orchestrate an internet espionage ring. This isn't journalism, if he really wanted this info to be exposed because of an altruistic belief, then by all means he should have sent it to a media outlet. The fact that he made his own site supports my belief that he is a fame hog. I know you think that the results of this fame (his life being under constant threat) disproves my theory, but I disagree with that. People all the time get something they wished for without any foreknowledge of the consequences, only to realize that what they wished for was more hassle than they believed possible. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it is a proverb for a reason.
How is starting a website that allows whistle-blowers a safe way to get their information out to the public considered 'espionage'? Firstly, it's not spies that are stealing the classified documents, it's members of the government or military that are speaking out and have access to any documents anyway. Second, it's not wikileaks that is doing this, as has been said before.

Assange hasn't created an international online spy ring to steal military secrets. All wikileaks is is an avenue for whistle-blowers to get their information out there. You have to understand that before you can judge it.

Now, the reason why the leaked information hasn't been put through the standard media avenues is probably because they can't be trusted. I wouldn't trust most news stations or papers, so I can understand if someone would rather go through a website that has been created for that purpose, and isn't run by people with vested interests in government for whatever reasons.

The argument that he has created the website with the intention to become famous is just ridiculous. It has been running for years, and he's only in the papers recently. Nobody has heard of anyone else that runs wikileaks; are they in it for fame too?

Quote:
These people you listed take their orders from our elected officials, and it is rare for a member of the military to go maverick (though it can happen, hence why we have Court Martials). Those elected offficials rarely last more than a term these days because as a country we have been swinging back and fourth politically every 4 years for the past decade.
I honestly can't fathom why you think that after a term of 4 years a person is immune to criticism, or perhaps even a garbled version of justice.


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These things were public though. These things were the counterargument of people who were supporting the war when the WMDs were not there. This is exactly what I mean when i said look at what could happen. We had multiple 'reasons for justice' to go into Iraq, but as it turns out that was a huge mistake.
So you ARE saying that gassing Kurds and torturing civilians should have been kept classified? Best that nobody found out?

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Because I am talking results. It takes wisdom to see that everything has a result and takes even more wisdom to exercise caution when you act. Revealing everything would bring about a shit storm of epic proportions, I don't think you realize just how bad it would be, and there would be a world wide ripple effect as a result of sudden worldwide government transparency.
Ok, results. You are worried that so many horrible things will be uncovered by wikileaks about the US government that the rest of the world will have to do something. You're worried that that 'something' would hinder your life or many other US citizens lives. I don't want to have to say it, but fuck - what if nobody found out about the holocaust? Best to leave that sort of thing under wraps, because it being made public knowledge would probably cause repercussions on normal German citizens. Yeah, it's the holocaust, I used it as an example, sue me. But this is your argument; keep things secret, possibly horrible things (especially the horrible things), because if people found out there would be trouble. If this is your argument then I think I am done here.
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Old Dec 11th, 2010, 09:21 AM       
You are young Zhukov, one day when you get older, you will understand the concept of the greater good, as opposed to the idealistic and unrealistic view you take on the world.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
How is starting a website that allows whistle-blowers a safe way to get their information out to the public considered 'espionage'? Firstly, it's not spies that are stealing the classified documents, it's members of the government or military that are speaking out and have access to any documents anyway. Second, it's not wikileaks that is doing this, as has been said before.
Firstly, you don't have to be an official spy and put that down on your w2 to commit espionage. If you are guilty of it you are guilty of it. trying to paint what they are doing as something else doesn't change what it is. Mob bosses don't commit most of the murders that are done on their behalf, but they are still responsible for said murders. The same is true here.

Which brings me to this; these things on Wikileaks, they aren't wikileaks' responsibility? Had wikileaks never been invented these things would never have been posted. Actions have consequence, as I have repeatedly said. You want these whistle blowees to take responsibility for what they wrought, yet you dismiss wikileaks' hand in the issues that will come as a result.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Assange hasn't created an international online spy ring to steal military secrets. All wikileaks is is an avenue for whistle-blowers to get their information out there. You have to understand that before you can judge it.
An accessory is an accessory, hemming and hawing about it changes nothing, trying to put a positive spin on it does not undo the damage it will cause, you have to realize this before you can defend it.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Now, the reason why the leaked information hasn't been put through the standard media avenues is probably because they can't be trusted. I wouldn't trust most news stations or papers, so I can understand if someone would rather go through a website that has been created for that purpose, and isn't run by people with vested interests in government for whatever reasons.
The media has issues, but individuals are the solution. Be a journalist of integrity and report the things properly without bias. But this has to be tempered with wisdom

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
The argument that he has created the website with the intention to become famous is just ridiculous. It has been running for years, and he's only in the papers recently. Nobody has heard of anyone else that runs wikileaks; are they in it for fame too?
His actions support my view. Perhaps these others are just smart enough to know anonymity is their only protection from what is to come. In other words, maybe only Assange was moronic enough to stick his head up and have his look at me moment.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
I honestly can't fathom why you think that after a term of 4 years a person is immune to criticism, or perhaps even a garbled version of justice.
I honestly can't fathom how you took that out of what I said. I said you can't punish current leaders for the actions of past leaders, it is a ridiculous concept. Why not make Jeffery Dahmer's relatives go to jail since he died and before serving his sentence while you are at it? What I actually said is there would not likely be anything done about it. There are a myriad of reasons for this. At best you would get a trial where high priced lawyers would get the people off on a technicality. The UN is smart enough (I think) to know if they try to push some sort of world trial on the US that the US (the primary financial contributor and most charitable of the UN nations by the way) would simply withdraw from the UN.


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So you ARE saying that gassing Kurds and torturing civilians should have been kept classified? Best that nobody found out?
Not at all, I said look at the result. If that is what you took from doing so then the question I think should be is that what YOU are saying?

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Ok, results. You are worried that so many horrible things will be uncovered by wikileaks about the US government that the rest of the world will have to do something. You're worried that that 'something' would hinder your life or many other US citizens lives. I don't want to have to say it, but fuck - what if nobody found out about the holocaust? Best to leave that sort of thing under wraps, because it being made public knowledge would probably cause repercussions on normal German citizens. Yeah, it's the holocaust, I used it as an example, sue me. But this is your argument; keep things secret, possibly horrible things (especially the horrible things), because if people found out there would be trouble. If this is your argument then I think I am done here.
Let me ask you this, what good does hurting the innocent for crimes committed by the guilty do?
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Old Dec 11th, 2010, 11:51 AM       
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Originally Posted by Pentegarn View Post
You are young Zhukov, one day when you get older, you will understand the concept of the greater good, as opposed to the idealistic and unrealistic view you take on the world.
I don't think it's naive to ask for transparency. What kind of bitter and jaded world-view does one nurture to believe transparency is not worth fighting for?

I think it's more idealistic to believe that all politicians are always doing their best to serve the people, and that they're best left alone without any scrutiny.
I think it's extremely naive to buy into their stories about how wikileaks is actually hurting innocent people, instead of focusing on how world leaders are gambling with thousands of lives in the most cynical way.

Surely, all sorts of media and propaganda machines will now brainstorm up heart-breaking stories about witnesses that have been exposed and dissidents on the run and whatnot, but let's look at the big picture.
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Dec 12th, 2010, 02:38 AM       
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Originally Posted by Pentegarn View Post

Firstly, you don't have to be an official spy and put that down on your w2 to commit espionage. If you are guilty of it you are guilty of it. trying to paint what they are doing as something else doesn't change what it is. Mob bosses don't commit most of the murders that are done on their behalf, but they are still responsible for said murders. The same is true here.
The guy is not a spy. Wikileaks isn't a front for an international espionage group. They are not cyber hackers. You wont be able to find any evidence of this and it's so outrageous that I haven't even heard and governments accusing him/them of this. It's the last comment I am making on the subject unless you can find some evidence for him hacking and stealing.
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Which brings me to this; these things on Wikileaks, they aren't wikileaks' responsibility? Had wikileaks never been invented these things would never have been posted. Actions have consequence, as I have repeatedly said. You want these whistle blowees to take responsibility for what they wrought, yet you dismiss wikileaks' hand in the issues that will come as a result.
Saying that the information would never have been leaked had it not been for wikileaks is a bit of a stretch. The people that chose to be whistle-blowers would have most likely found another avenue, in my opinion. And, yus, I do think that wikileaks has some responsibility in the matter, they are the ones that are making it easy to leak info, and they are the ones making it easy for the public to read into. I haven't said anything along the lines that whistle blowers need to take responsibility for the consequences or anything along those lines whatsoever.


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An accessory is an accessory, hemming and hawing about it changes nothing, trying to put a positive spin on it does not undo the damage it will cause, you have to realize this before you can defend it.
An accessory to spies? You say that Julian Assange is a spy, that wikileaks is an espionage ring, and then on the other hand you say that is assisting spies. There hasn't, as far as I am aware, been any evidence uncovered to suggest that any of the leaked information that has been posted on wikileaks, has been obtained by stealing it. If you can't find some evidence to back up the claim for spying, then leave it alone.

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The media has issues, but individuals are the solution. Be a journalist of integrity and report the things properly without bias. But this has to be tempered with wisdom
Well that's a whole different kettle of fish, and if you want to start a thread about the media then go for it. I will say, however, that there is no way that individual journalists can stay unbiased, since even if they did their news company wouldn't run their stories or would have them fired. Still, not on topic.

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His actions support my view. Perhaps these others are just smart enough to know anonymity is their only protection from what is to come. In other words, maybe only Assange was moronic enough to stick his head up and have his look at me moment.
I really think you are grasping at straws here. IS he a spy or is he just trying to get famous? Is it both? It's ridiculous any way you look at it. How do his actions support your view that he is just in this to get famous? Famous for WHAT END? He's not making a billion dollars off of this, he's not appearing on talk shows. It's ridiculous.

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I honestly can't fathom how you took that out of what I said. I said you can't punish current leaders for the actions of past leaders, it is a ridiculous concept. Why not make Jeffery Dahmer's relatives go to jail since he died and before serving his sentence while you are at it? What I actually said is there would not likely be anything done about it. There are a myriad of reasons for this. At best you would get a trial where high priced lawyers would get the people off on a technicality. The UN is smart enough (I think) to know if they try to push some sort of world trial on the US that the US (the primary financial contributor and most charitable of the UN nations by the way) would simply withdraw from the UN.
You said that there is no point bringing crimes of a government to light, because they will be out of office in at least 8 to 4 years anyway. Who is saying that present leaders need to be punished for past leaders though?!! As far as no legal action being taken against 'present or past leaders' ... is that the point? To get US military courts to bring tortures to justice? No. To get big banks to pay back all the tax they dodged? No. It's to show people how their world and their society runs, behind their backs. You can't seriously believe that just because nobody is going to arrest high ranking military personnel, that any crime they commit should just stay hidden. That's insane.



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Not at all, I said look at the result. If that is what you took from doing so then the question I think should be is that what YOU are saying?
"If that is what you took from doing so then the question I think should be is that what YOU are saying?"

I can't understand what you just said

You DO think that the torture of Iraqi civilians by the Iraqi government should have been made public, but the torture of Iraqi's by the US government has to stay secret. Right. Please explain to me how the consequences of A outweigh the consequences of B.

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Let me ask you this, what good does hurting the innocent for crimes committed by the guilty do?
Soo.... it WAS a bad thing for the holocaust to come to light? I'm not saying ANYTHING about punishing innocent people, you seem to think it's the logical conclusion to uncovering war crimes or environmental and economic crime. It's not. Has it been in the past? It has, but nobody is suggesting it now, are they? No.

Here are some leaked documents, and I want you to tell me if it would be better if they were all just left alone and kept classified.

Bank Julius Baer: Grand Larceny via Grand Cayman - How the largest private Swiss bank avoids paying tax to the Swiss government

The looting of Kenya under President Moi - $3,000,000,000 presidential corruption exposed; swung the Dec 2007 Kenyan election

The Monju nuclear reactor leak - Three suppressed videos from Japan's fast breeder reactor Monju revealing the true extent of the 1995 sodium coolant disaster

Inside Somalia and the Union of Islamic Courts - Vital strategy documents in the Somali war and a play for Chinese support

CIA report into shoring up Afghan war support in Western Europe, 11 Mar 2010 - This classified CIA analysis from March, outlines possible PR-strategies to shore up public support in Germany and France for a continued war in Afghanistan.

The Independent: Toxic Shame: Thousands injured in African city, 17 Sep 2009 - Publication of an article originally published in UK newspaper The Independent, but censored from the Independent's website.

Secret gag on UK Times preventing publication of Minton report into toxic waste dumping, 16 Sep 2009

How German intelligence infiltrated Focus magazine - Illegal spying on German journalists

Stasi still in charge of Stasi files - Suppressed 2007 investigation into infiltration of former Stasi into the Stasi files commission

Changes in Guantanamo Bay SOP manual (2003-2004) - Guantanamo Bay's main operations manuals

Fallujah jail challenges US - Classified U.S. report into appalling prison conditions in Fallujah

Dili investigator called to Canberra as evidence of execution mounts - the Feb 2008 killing of East Timor rebel leader Reinado

Como entrenar a escuadrones de la muerte y aplastar revoluciones de El Salvador a Iraq - The U.S. Special Forces manual on how to prop up unpopular government with paramilitaries

Claims of molestation resurface for US judo official

Report on Shriners raises question of wrongdoing - corruption exposed at 22 U.S. and Canadian children's hospitals.

Church of Scientology's 'Operating Thetan' documents leaked online - Scientology's secret, and highly litigated bibles

Internet Censorship in Thailand - The secret internet censorship lists of Thailand's military junta

Eutelsat suppresses independent Chinese-language TV station NTDTV to satisfy Beijing - French sat provider Eutelsat covertly removed an anti-communist TV channel to satisfy Beijing

Whistleblower exposes insider trading program at JP Morgan - Legal insider trading in three easy steps, brought to you by JP Morgan and the SEC


http://www.wikileaks.ch/about.html


In summing up you are basically saying that Julian Assange is a spy who is just out for fame, rather than any altruistic reasons, and that any crime committed by the worlds governing bodies should stay hidden, especially the US ones, because nobody is going to bring them to justice, and if they did then world stability would fail.

If it's not what you are saying, then please sum up in a sentence or to what it IS you are saying.
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Dec 12th, 2010, 05:09 AM       
Doesn't the government have a right to lie to people?

Is there something in the constitution that says that the government cant lie to people?
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Old Dec 12th, 2010, 05:22 AM       
Not that I am aware of. If a government has a right to lie, then I guess a people have a right to find out if they are lying. It's not in the constitution that people don't have a right to find out, is it?
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Old Dec 12th, 2010, 05:24 AM       
People really aren't trying to figure anything out though, its like one or two people on the internet
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Old Dec 12th, 2010, 06:26 AM       
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Soo.... it WAS a bad thing for the holocaust to come to light?
See this sort of thing it an ad hominem argument. But if you want to compare the holocaust (6 million lives lost) to the stuff on wikileaks lets do so, but let's put it in proper perspective.

How many lives were lost because of every event reported on wikileaks combined? Was it half the lives in the holocaust? Was it 10% of the lives? Hell I will go as far as to wager it wasn't even 1% of the lives lost. Playing the holocaust card is both childish and smacks of desperation. I was nice enough to ignore it once but once you accuse me twice of saying I think we should have hidden the holocaust in a transparent effort to make your much lesser view about wikileaks seem like it is on par with the holocaust, I am left with no choice but to call you out for it.

You also seem to counter argue that fame without purpose cannot possibly be motivation. Tell that to Michael Lohan, every internet sensation on youtube, or John Goslin. None of these people exactly got rich off of their fame, yet they still are fame hogs. Just because you don't get rich off of something does not mean you do not get famous, and for some people fame in and of itself is a motivation. Maybe he is arrogant, maybe his life's purpose is to cement his name in the history books. All I know is a purely unselfishly motivated person would have simply funneled the information to a media outlet that has integrity. If you look hard enough you can still find an example of journalists who just report the news (Meet the Press is an example of this). If I, an average guy from the middle of the US can find one media outlet that I deem trustworthy, he could have too. He chose, that's right chose, not to take that route and went instead for this whistle blower site. All these examples you listed, Watergate, the Holocaust, etc, have all been exposed by the media. In fact let's look at Watergate for a moment. Notice how you could not for years tell me the real name of Deep Throat. The reason for this is they were altruistic, and not a fame seeker, they wanted a crime reported and went about it the exact way one should go to do so to see justice. There was no look at me moment, there was no whistle blower site, there was nothing but someone quietly reporting a wrong, with no expectation of a reward other then maintaining their anonymity. There's a very sharp contrast between Deep Throat and Assange, one that cannot be denied.

Note: I am not convinced Felt (the man who years later claimed to be Deep Throat) is actually telling the truth about him being Deep Throat, but that is another discussion entirely
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Old Dec 12th, 2010, 06:47 AM       
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Assange hasn't created an international online spy ring to steal military secrets. All wikileaks is is an avenue for whistle-blowers to get their information out there. You have to understand that before you can judge it.
And yet, you then pointed this out

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
CIA report into shoring up Afghan war support in Western Europe, 11 Mar 2010 - This classified CIA analysis from March, outlines possible PR-strategies to shore up public support in Germany and France for a continued war in Afghanistan.
Looks like that is a military secret to me, it is classified, it is designed to help get support from other countries, and yet now, thanks to some espionage (exposing classified documents about strategies can be called nothing else you see) this particular strategy has been compromised. Why did the whistle need to be blown on this? To show the US uses PR to gain support from other countries? Unless you live under a rock you should know every country does this. Now that this is out there the people have gained nothing, yet the US just lost face in a PR campaign they felt was necessary.
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Dec 12th, 2010, 10:12 AM       
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Originally Posted by Pentegarn View Post
See this sort of thing it an ad hominem argument. But if you want to compare the holocaust (6 million lives lost) to the stuff on wikileaks lets do so, but let's put it in proper perspective.
No, It's not an ad hominen argument. It's a comparison. If I had used the Srebrenica massacre instead would that have been better? I'll pose that then, would it have been better if nobody found out about the Srebrenica massacre?

Pent, I don't actually think you understand what wikileaks is doing. Nor do I think you understand what information has been leaked to it. The comparison to the holocaust was an extreme example of things that governments do, and then cover them up and keep the information classified. I wasn't saying that anything the US has done in Iraq, Sth America, Afghanistan, the USA, or wherever is on par with the holocaust. You say that a government has a right to keep things classified if it deems them worthy, well, they thought the mass execution of Jews was something that should be classified, and despite everything when the war was over most Germans didn't know about the death camps. They were kept classified. That is the only comparison that I am making with it.

Again, who decides what is kept classified and what isn't? The government? Slightly biased I would say, since they are most likely to cover up their mistakes, crimes, embarrassments and such.

Also, dude, you can't just keep calling me young, childish impressionable, idealistic or whatever when you yourself haven't looked into it. A few posts ago you were saying that Assange was personally hacking into US mainframes or whatever and stealing secret military plans, so there really isn't any reason to bust out the insults.



Quote:
You also seem to counter argue that fame without purpose cannot possibly be motivation. Tell that to Michael Lohan, every internet sensation on youtube, or John Goslin. None of these people exactly got rich off of their fame, yet they still are fame hogs. Just because you don't get rich off of something does not mean you do not get famous, and for some people fame in and of itself is a motivation. Maybe he is arrogant, maybe his life's purpose is to cement his name in the history books. All I know is a purely unselfishly motivated person would have simply funneled the information to a media outlet that has integrity. If you look hard enough you can still find an example of journalists who just report the news (Meet the Press is an example of this). If I, an average guy from the middle of the US can find one media outlet that I deem trustworthy, he.......
Wait, wait, wait.


Who is "he"?


Quote:
.....could have too. He chose, that's right chose, not to take that route and went instead for this whistle blower site. All these examples you listed, Watergate, the Holocaust, etc, have all been exposed by the media. In fact let's look at Watergate for a moment. Notice how you could not for years tell me the real name of Deep Throat. The reason for this is they were altruistic, and not a fame seeker, they wanted a crime reported and went about it the exact way one should go to do so to see justice. There was no look at me moment, there was no whistle blower site, there was nothing but someone quietly reporting a wrong, with no expectation of a reward other then maintaining their anonymity.
Assange is not a whistle-blower so he doesn't have to remain anonymous. He is the public face of a web site that has been in the news a lot recently. What does his so called fame chasing actions have anything to do with the validity of a transparent government? You also haven't said whether you think the Watergate scandal should have been made public either. If yes, why?

Quote:
There's a very sharp contrast between Deep Throat and Assange, one that cannot be denied.
Right, the fact that Deep Throat was a whistle-blower, and Assange is the head of a media outlet. What makes it; a not for profit website, untrustworthy in your opinion, and the highly profit driven news companies trustworthy I don't know. Wikileaks IS media. Are you now saying that it's OK for criminal activity to be brought out to the public so long as it's in a newspaper first?


Quote:
Looks like that is a military secret to me, it is classified, it is designed to help get support from other countries, and yet now, thanks to some espionage (exposing classified documents about strategies can be called nothing else you see) this particular strategy has been compromised. Why did the whistle need to be blown on this? To show the US uses PR to gain support from other countries? Unless you live under a rock you should know every country does this. Now that this is out there the people have gained nothing, yet the US just lost face in a PR campaign they felt was necessary.
Assange didn't commit espionage to obtain the information. It was given to wikileaks by most likely a member of the US military. It's not espionage, nor is 'exposing classified documents' considered espionage. The fact that such classified information is leaked through this particular website is NOT proof that said website used espionage to obtain it. That's not proof that Assange is a spy, a head of a spy ring, a hacker, or assisting or being an accessory to spies.

The US is not calling him a spy that is stealing military secrets, since if they did so they would have to actually prove it. Why are you so keen to call him a spy and a hacker?

In fact THIS is ad hominem. We can't trust wikileaks because Julian Assange is a spy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZHUKOV
You DO think that the torture of Iraqi civilians by the Iraqi government should have been made public, but the torture of Iraqi's by the US government has to stay secret. Right. Please explain to me how the consequences of A outweigh the consequences of B.
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Old Dec 12th, 2010, 09:10 PM       
Zhukov, you already lost this argument because you support a guy named Asshinge.
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Old Dec 13th, 2010, 06:02 AM       
Zhukov, you either are willfully ignorant of the fact that fully transparent governments are a bad idea and totally destructive to the social and economic climate, or you simply don't care about consequences, either way, it is clear there is no getting through to you.
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Old Dec 13th, 2010, 07:18 AM       
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Originally Posted by Pentegarn View Post
Zhukov, you are willfully ignorant of the fact that fully transparent governments are a bad idea and totally destructive to the social and economic climate
Oh man...
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Old Dec 13th, 2010, 07:20 AM       
When delivering such fine pearls of wisdom, Pentegarn, you need a fitting emoticon:
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Dec 13th, 2010, 08:47 AM       
In conclusion Mr. Speaker, I would like so sum up with the following:

Julian Assange is, at the time of writing and contrary to any unknown evidence, not a spy, nor is he nor Wikileaks associated with spies or any forms of espionage. Rather, he is the public face of a media outlet designed to allow whistle-blowers to safely and anonymously expose their government's behaviour.

What is deemed classified by most governments is more often than not considered such to hide criminal behaviour in various forms, rather than because of military secrets etc pertaining to the safety of it's civilians.

Government transparency in the near future, while not completely responsible for the destruction of the current social and economic climate, is certainly a step in the right direction for a more civil and just society and a fairer economic climate. A climate where the type of 'classified' torture, espionage, lying, war crimes, tax evasion, environmental destruction and other such actions aren't hidden and aren't accepted.
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Old Dec 13th, 2010, 10:04 AM       
if he's not a spy t hen why does he call it wikileaks?

leaks are to spies what leeks are to leek farmers.
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Old Dec 13th, 2010, 10:37 AM       
Spies don't leak secrets, they give them to their employers whom keep them secret.
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Old Dec 13th, 2010, 10:47 AM       
I never said that spies leak secrets. That's like saying plumbers leak water!
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Old Dec 13th, 2010, 10:56 AM       
I've been reading this exchange with great interest.

At the onset, I was deeply suspicious of Mr. Assange and his motives regarding the leaking of "pseudo-sensitive" information that was merely embarrassing to the US Department of State. Then after reading Zhukov and Pentegarn head to head I found myself drawn to the middle ground. Maybe we need a site like this to keep our governments honest with those they are charged with governing.

Then this shows up. What better way to sabotage a cause for transparency than to wage a cyberwar. Someone, somewhere has a really bad idea of what constitutes grass-roots support.
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Old Dec 13th, 2010, 11:23 AM       
Except for the fact that it's fucking 4-Chan and their band of retarded, misguided Robin Hoods. They don't have anything to do with the official Wiki-leaks. I'm assuming they're just having a hard time staying afloat at the moment. O'course, they'll probably just buddy-up with Pirate Bay or do what they're doing.
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