Are Games Art?

[DougClayton4231]

I've been wondering this question from a cultural perspective. I personally think that very few games could be considered art because they have no cultural values whatsoever. For instance, I'd consider Shenmue 1 and 2 art because they actually have a message and a story. I wouldn't consider a game like FarCry art because it was pointless and ultimately forgettable.

I don't consider a great deal of film or music to be art, mainly on the basis that it just exists because someone thought that "Return Of The Living Dead: Rave To The Grave" or any of Hulk Hogan's albums would be a great paycheck.

What do you think?

[Phoenix Gamma]

Well first you'd have to define "art", which is a whole can of pretentious worms that I hate opening, so I won't.

But you could definitely argue that games qualify as interactive art, which is a legitimate and recognized form of art. The only thing is there are a lot of fucking awful ass games all about the same thing (shooting dudes, stabbing dudes, punching dudes). Sorta like how comics are art, even though most of it caters to kids and manchilren and is about dudes in tights with superpowers.

[dextire]

I believe games very much are a form of art.
Just because a game sucks, copies others before it, or is made for the wrong reasons doesn't mean it's no longer art, it's just bad art.
A painting that looks like a kid threw up on it is still considered art.

I think that pretty much any creative process that can be experienced by others is considered art. Be it music, film, painting, writing, or games.
And like other art forms it takes talent, skill, experience, and time to create good games.

[Grislygus]

Videogames will never be art. Unless, of course, some pop factory art tool like Murakami develops a video game; suddenly "ironic" video games will be seen as a clever and stunning subversion of the shallow, corporate and moneybased culture that it satirizes by becoming yet another facet of that shallow, corporate, and moneybased culture.

The stuffed-turkeys of the art dealing world will have their minds blown by contemporary pop art (yet again) and Takashi Murakami will laugh all the way to the bank. In the meantime, videogames made for the sheer purpose of being FUN and TURNING A PROFIT will still be looked down upon as pathetic and inferior commercial art. (Unlike Murakami! He's a GENIUS! We <3 SUPERFLAT PLEASE LET US THROW MONEY AT YOU, YOU STUNNING AND TIMELESS GOD OF EARTH-SHATTERINGLY LIFE AFFIRMING ARTWORK! HUGS AND KISSES!)

Terrible videogames made specifically to be knowing and sophisticated will be sold at 14.3 million dollars a pop at international art auctions, and galleries will begin showing classic game covers sealed away in crystal cases. These will be seen as deep, meaningful, and unintentionally relevant pillars of pop art that achieve heights of grandeur and sophistication that no *scoff* CONVENTIONAL artwork could ever hope to achieve. Keanu Reeves, Nicholas Cage, and Jennifer Anniston will immediately begin decorating their walls with classic arcade posters that they paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for.

[Grislygus]

Oh, and garish statues of Mario and Donkey Kong will be commissioned to decorate Napa Valley Wineries.

[Anselm]

When FFVII came out, a few friends would come over and we'd play it together. Three of us, passing around the joystick at intervals and making battle decisions for the character that was considered our avatar.

One of their parents asked me how we could play a game so much. I explained that it was the story that kept us interested. The same reason you read a good book. I also explained that for many people of my generation, a good video game means the same as books did for previous generations.

When Aeris was run through by Sephiroth's sword, the room got pretty quite. It changed the mood of our social event. We had vested interests in the characters.

A good game will leave an impression. I would consider that art.

In short, I agree with you. Some games are not art because they don't merit any creativity or real furthering of the industry.

How about a discussion on games that should be considered art, and games that should just be considered an insult to the hobby.

Art: FFVII

Insulting: Mario Party 8

~Anselm~

[darkvare]

i always hated that comment i like this game so is art but this one is not my style so is not art if you are going to consider something art you can't reject something just cause you don't like it

[Anselm]

It's not about like or dislike, it's about effort and purpose.

By your reasoning, everything is art. If I dump a paint can over and someone else paints a mural on the side of the building, would most people consider both to be art? A little bit of common sense goes a long way.

I think video games, like any genre of creative orginazation of human effort can be considered art. Like or dislike is obviously not the consideration. I hate RTS games but clearly WC3 is a quality product with true artistic merit. I also think a crappy game, just like a crappy painting, should not be considered art. Shoud it? Under what merits? That it exists?

Fine, maybe it would suit you better to focus the argument on good vs. shitty art. In this way I can consider dog urine artistic.


~Anselm~

[Grislygus]

Of course a crappy painting is art, it's a fucking PAINTING numbnuts

"Oh no, that's not artwork, it's merely a picture badly rendered in paint on a framed canvas."

[King Hadas]

Darkvare: Your Pennywise avatar seems to be giving this thread a lot of consideration.

Why's it matter if something is deemed art? Maybe the word "art" means something to art school graduates but to me it's just a vague term people use when they can't think of a more exacting word. Isn't this whole argument nothing but semantics?

[Grislygus]

No, arguing about whether the word "art" means anything is nothing but semantics. It's the kind of argument that you hear from high school kids when you tell them that good art always involves hard work, usually accompanied by the arguments "NO", "I don't need to get any better", "NO!", "You just don't understand", and "that's just my style!"

[King Hadas]

Yeah, you're right. I thought art had a more esoteric, bullshit meaning. Now I know that's not true having just looked up the word on dictionary.com.

Art: the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.

It's funny people have these arguments about what a word means but then never bother to look it up. Quite a few games meet those criteria so video games are art.

[Grislygus]

Good in theory. Unfortunately, NO ONE, ANYWHERE, can agree on ONE SINGLE definition of art in a specific sense. The only real indicator is the unified and undisputed acceptance of art dealers, art critics, and the public at large. Michelangelo is art. Films, music and books are art. Video games are hotly debated and only considered "art" by a minority, and therefore are not art. Graffiti wasn't "real art" until it was accepted as such and became profitable. The international art world is a goddamn business, and the philosophy of it is secondary (in a practical sense). As soon as art dealers can rake in huge profits and a good rep through video games, it will become "art".

As far as useful definitions go, no one, not even art dealers, have ever paid attention to the shit they read in school (if they read anything at all), so everyone completely misses the fact that video games are an applied art, not a fine art, because no one can tell the difference (and whenever anyone talks about "art", they're usually talking fine art and the miscommunication leads to a shitfest)

[The Leader]

Originally Posted by Anselm

It's not about like or dislike, it's about effort and purpose.

By your reasoning, everything is art. If I dump a paint can over and someone else paints a mural on the side of the building, would most people consider both to be art? A little bit of common sense goes a long way.

I think video games, like any genre of creative orginazation of human effort can be considered art. Like or dislike is obviously not the consideration. I hate RTS games but clearly WC3 is a quality product with true artistic merit. I also think a crappy game, just like a crappy painting, should not be considered art. Shoud it? Under what merits? That it exists?

Fine, maybe it would suit you better to focus the argument on good vs. shitty art. In this way I can consider dog urine artistic.


~Anselm~

You fucking fascist.

[10,000 Volt Ghost]

Originally Posted by Anselm

When FFVII came out, a few friends would come over and we'd play it together. Three of us, passing around the joystick at intervals and making battle decisions for the character that was considered our avatar.

One of their parents asked me how we could play a game so much. I explained that it was the story that kept us interested. The same reason you read a good book. I also explained that for many people of my generation, a good video game means the same as books did for previous generations.

When Aeris was run through by Sephiroth's sword, the room got pretty quite. It changed the mood of our social event. We had vested interests in the characters.

A good game will leave an impression. I would consider that art.

In short, I agree with you. Some games are not art because they don't merit any creativity or real furthering of the industry.

How about a discussion on games that should be considered art, and games that should just be considered an insult to the hobby.

Art: FFVII

Insulting: Mario Party 8

~Anselm~

You should have played FF VI. It was better art AND co-op.

[Anselm]

Originally Posted by 10,000 Volt Ghost

You should have played FF VI. It was better art AND co-op.

I played FFIII on Super Nintendo. I know VI is referred to as III in North America but I'm guessing this is a different game altogether.

~Anselm~

[DougClayton4231]

Grislygus, you feel very strongly about this lol. It's weird to think of something like a Jackson Pollock as art for me, mainly because it looks mostly like a retarded 4 year old threw paint on a canvas. I think that anything that could be considered art should actually have some sort of meaning behind it (One that does not require heavy doses of narcotics to figure out).

But then again, I loved Frankenhooker and Redneck Zombies so what do I fucking know about art? I don't believe that future societies will ever look back upon something like Manhunt or Soldier of Fortune and go "Wow, I wish I could create art like them!", I think that they might label us as barbarians and lunatics based on our media. I guess Super Mario will be the Jimi Hendrix of videogames in the future.

[King Hadas]

Applied art? Fine art? You're making me look shit up Grislygus, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

If something needs a majority vote to be art I don't think video games will ever make it since they're just to inaccessible. Just getting the equipment together is complicated, not to mention expensive. And then actually learning the controls for each game, I've been playing them my whole life so I have something like video game literacy but for someone new it'd probably be frustrating.

Most likely video games will never be accepted socially as art. Only I, and my brave, stalwart companions can see the towering aesthetic plateaus of such video games as Donkey Kong Country 3 and Jackie Chan: Stuntmaster.

[10,000 Volt Ghost]

Originally Posted by Anselm

I played FFIII on Super Nintendo. I know VI is referred to as III in North America but I'm guessing this is a different game altogether.

~Anselm~

Same game.

Originally Posted by King Hadas

Only I, and my brave, stalwart companions can see the towering aesthetic plateaus of such video games as Donkey Kong Country 3 and Jackie Chan: Stuntmaster.

:HIGHFIVE

Loved that once you beat stuntmaster you get access to his drunken boxing form and stance.

[King Hadas]

Shit, I didn't know that. Stuntmaster is pretty awesome, it even holds up well by today's standards. Mostly because the camera is fixed like an old, snes era beat em' up.

[mew barios]

if movies are art then what would be the minimum cutscene/playtime ratio that a videogame would need to achieve art status? all them laserdisc games from the 80s would totally have to be art, the interaction from the player is almost negligible.

ps checkmate

[Grislygus]

Once again, APPLIED art. Not fine art, hence the pissing contest.

Originally Posted by DougClayton4231

Grislygus, you feel very strongly about this lol. It's weird to think of something like a Jackson Pollock as art for me, mainly because it looks mostly like a retarded 4 year old threw paint on a canvas. I think that anything that could be considered art should actually have some sort of meaning behind it (One that does not require heavy doses of narcotics to figure out).

Before I go into my next self-absorbed lecture, I would like to clarify my reasons; I have been forced into many, many, many conversations with highly educated, very stupid (and very young people) who think that Andy Warhol and Damien Hirst are the shit and that anyone who thinks differently is a tool. With that said, I'm sticking this next rant in a spoilers tag so that no one has to look at it if they don't want to.

Spoilers!

I don't like Jackson Pollock I like Rockwell Kent, Otto Dix, Dorothea Tanning, David Alfarro Siqueros, Degas, Toulouse Lautrec, Goya, Ralph Steadman, Gustav Dore, and Emil Nolde. BUT, I respect Pollock. Forget what anyone has ever told you about what his work means or stands for. He was an alcoholic motherfucker who loved the hell out of what he was doing and did it well. It's all about the paint, the colors, and what he did with them. I would NOT hang that shit on my wall, but looking at them in person is amazing (if, and only if, you give a fuck). THAT is why people worship the guy. In the meantime, you have this modern contemporary art movement full of overprivileged, arrogant, hip, ungodly rich, STUPID GODDAMN motherfuckers who use federal funding to put crucifixes in jars of urine and worship Andy Warhol because he painted a fucking tomato can. Art is about a love of a medium and the resulting use of it and respect for it. If you're an artist, painting or drawing feels good. Whatever you're actually painting and drawing is secondary. Because you've been drawing/painting so long and have fun doing it, your goddamn BRAIN associates the visceral feeling of holding a brush/pencil/pen and moving it on the paper and activates minor pleasure centers in your brain (like listening to music does to normal people). Meanwhile the entire "contemporary arts" gallery scene doesn't give a fuck about any of that, only a SOPHISTICATED AND PROBABLY SOCIALLY CONSCIOUS MESSAGE PAIRED WITH SUPERFICIAL 'DEPTH'. Love of working in one or more mediums is integral to the creation of "real" art, both fine and applied, but you can't explain that to normal people OR the half-retarded pop art fanatics (see: factory art, "The Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living", Takashi Murakami). All you can do is get drunk with other SANE artists once in a while and bitch about philistines and the INTERNATIONAL CORPORATE ART MACHINE COMPLEX AND THOSE GODDAMN LIBERAL PIGFUCKERS.

Originally Posted by King Hadas

Applied art? Fine art? You're making me look shit up Grislygus, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Just thank God that you've never gotten drunk with me

[Phoenix Gamma]

Originally Posted by Grislygus

Videogames will never be art. Unless, of course, some pop factory art tool like Murakami develops a video game; suddenly "ironic" video games will be seen as a clever and stunning subversion of the shallow, corporate and moneybased culture that it satirizes by becoming yet another facet of that shallow, corporate, and moneybased culture.

That's already happening. That's why people circlejerk over Suda51 even though he hasn't made a single game that was good aside from a few flashes of goodness in No More Heroes 2.

If I ever meet anyone in person who seriously argues that the overworld in NMH1 is bad because it's a statement, I will personally shove my foot so far up their anus that it pops out of their mouth.

[DougClayton4231]

No More Heroes 1 and 2 were shit stains on the Wii. Nuff said. I very much enjoyed Killer7 because it was original, entertaining and bizarre though. The whole "I make weird shit, therefore I am an artist" thing has gotten very, very old. Just look at Lady Gaga. Makes me sick.

[Dimnos]

Art is about a love of a medium and the resulting use of it and respect for it. If you're an artist, painting or drawing programming or rendering on a computer feels good. Whatever you're actually painting and drawing programming or rendering is secondary. Because you've been drawing/painting rendering/programming so long and have fun doing it, your goddamn BRAIN associates the visceral feeling of holding a brush/pencil/pen keyboard/mouse and moving it on the paper computer and activates minor pleasure centers in your brain (like listening to music does to normal people).