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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old May 4th, 2006, 09:52 AM        Third party party?
Friedman presents it in the light of the gas "crisis". That's all well and good, but I think you could broaden the discussion a bit.

If you look back through our political history, the times that a true vibrant third party rose up was during a period of political apathy and distress. Both parties at least appeared to be melding together, and nobody was too keen on them. Also, you had sensitive issues that resonated with the American public, but were either being ignored or handled poorly by the governing elites.

Gas, Iraq, immigration, etc.

I feel we are ripe for a third party with solid grassroots to gain some ground here. So, two questions:

1. What do you think?
2. Would you support a third party in 2008?


http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635204623,00.html

A third party might solve the energy crisis

By Thomas L. Friedman


What would OPEC do if it wanted to keep America addicted to oil? That's easy. OPEC would urge the U.S. Congress to deal with the current spike in gasoline prices either by adopting the Republican proposal to give American drivers $100 each, so they could continue driving gas-guzzling cars and buy gasoline at the current $3.50 a gallon, or by adopting the Democrats' proposal for a 60-day lifting of the federal gasoline tax of 18.4 cents a gallon. Either one would be fine with OPEC.
So, to summarize, we now have a Congress proposing to do exactly what our worst enemies would like us to do — subsidize our addiction to gasoline by breaking into our kids' piggybanks to make it easier for us to pay the prices demanded by our oil pushers, so that we will remain addicted and they will remain awash in dollars.
With a Congress like this, who needs al-Qaida?
Seriously, there is something really disturbing about the utterly shameless, utterly over-the-top Republican pandering and Democratic point-scoring that have been masquerading as governing in response to this energy crisis. The Republicans are worse, because they control all the levers of power and could move the country if they proposed a serious energy policy — but won't.
"We used to say the system is broken because it won't respond until there is a crisis," said David Rothkopf, author of "Running the World," a history of U.S. foreign policy. But now it's really broken, "because the system can't even respond to a crisis!"
What to do? I'm hoping for a third party. The situation is ripe for one: America is facing a challenge as big as the Cold War — how we satisfy our long-term energy needs, at reasonable prices, while decreasing our dependence on oil and the bad governments that export it — and neither major party will offer a solution, because it requires sacrifice today for gain tomorrow.
Combine a huge leadership vacuum on a huge issue with an Internet that has proved itself as an alternative platform for organizing, financing and energizing a political campaign outside the Washington establishment and you have the makings of a credible third party.
I would not call it the "Green Party" — the name's been taken, and it connotes an agenda that is too narrow and liberal. Today's third party has to be big, strategic, centrist and forward-looking — something like the American Renewal Party, something that frames the energy issue as critical to restoring American strength and wealth, not just conservation.
Energy really is key to American renewal — from stimulating more young people to study math and science, to bringing down the trade deficit by decreasing our dependence on imported oil, to bringing down the fiscal deficit by raising gasoline taxes, to improving U.S. competitiveness by making us leaders in clean technologies, to restoring U.S. global respect by leading the fight against climate change, to advancing democracy by finding alternatives to oil and thereby weakening some of the world's worst regimes, who are using their oil windfalls to halt the spread of freedom.
"There is an opportunity here for someone who will seize it," said Micah Sifry, author of "Spoiling for a Fight: Third-Party Politics in America." That someone would have to be a more emotionally stable and energy-focused Ross Perot type. Because, added Sifry, "if the issue of the day in 1991-92 was the ballooning budget deficit that we were not dealing with, then the issue today we are not dealing with is the energy and environmental catastrophe that awaits the next generation. It is as much a mortgaging of our children's future as the deficit issue. It needs the right leader, though."
Like someone who will tell the truth: The only way Americans are ever going to enjoy relatively cheap gasoline again is if we raise the price now with a gasoline tax— and fix it at that higher level for several years — so investors know that it is not coming down, and therefore it makes economic sense for them to make the long-term investments in alternative, renewable sources of energy. That is the only way to break our oil addiction and ultimately bring down the price.
Yes, our system is rigged against third parties. Still, my gut says that some politician, someday soon, just to be different, just for the fun of it, will take a flier on telling Americans the truth. The right candidate with the right message on energy might be able to drive a bus right up the middle of the U.S. political scene today — lose the far left and the far right — and still maybe, just maybe, win a three-way election.
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old May 4th, 2006, 10:27 AM       
You know something, that last part makes me hope that McCain or the governor of West Vriginia (damn I'm too lazy to look it up) gets screwed over by his respective party. That might propel either one to say "Fuck it, I can't deal with these assholes anymore" and start a real third party.

Not some fake ass limousine liberal Democrats light Green Party. A real party that actually crosses lines.

Yes, it will still be filled with politicians. Yes, it is a temporary solution at best. No, they won't win the White House or that many Congressional seats. But, they may win enough national and state elections to scare the bejeezus out of the big two and cause a change.
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ziggytrix ziggytrix is offline
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Old May 4th, 2006, 11:17 AM        Re: Third party party?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore
1. What do you think?
2. Would you support a third party in 2008?
1. It won't work. Not because it can't work, but because of the immense inertia of a country politically at rest to remain at rest. If somehow the 50% of voting age Americans who never vote even for a Presidential election suddenly chose to vote, I think the world would explode.

2. If the candidates provided by the two dominant parties are as colossally uninspiring as who they ran in 2000 (which was the last time I threw away my vote on a 3rd party) then sure, why not.
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Old May 4th, 2006, 11:26 AM       
1.) I think it could only work if someone way more charismatic than anyone I'm currently aware of, or able to show a newer bolder side arrived on the seen. There is a HUGE amount of untapped anger with the way things get done politically out there, but someone has to have the stones to tap it and the brains to do something with it. It will take a mountain of support to deal any sort of blow, even a small one, to the amount of money the entrenched parties can tap into.

2.) At this point I might well vote for a third party on principal, even if I didn't whole heartedly embrace their platform. It woud depend on what they were digging into, votewise. If voting for a third party increased the chances of a Republican endorsed by the current bunch (The Neoncon and their money machine) I wouldn't do it. But I am far too disgusted with the Democrats to vote for one just to beat a Republican, if that Republican looked less dangerous to the country and constitution than Ol' W.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old May 4th, 2006, 03:43 PM       
See, I don't particularly think it's one charismatic ideologue that'll get the job done. Although it would help.

I think it needs to be a combination of 1. the charismatic somebody, 2. Grassroots foundation, and 3. Policy alternatives that can be presented clearly to the American people.

Oh, and outrage. Lots of outrage.

I feel like the ingredients are there, we just haven't finished the chili yet. I truly believe the Libertarian party has criteria #2 down, and although I disagree with them, sort of have #3. They don't have #1 though.

Harry Browne, RIP.
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Old May 4th, 2006, 06:50 PM       
I'm definitely looking into voting third party again in '08. The Democrats have had too many opportunities to get their shit together, but they haven't. Last week, I read an editorial in New York magazine which discussed the possibility of a "Purple Party". This editorial is actually quite long, so I've just posted a few paragraphs from the first page.

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/news/pol...713/index.html

We are people without a party. We open-minded, openhearted moderates are alienated from the two big parties because backward-looking ideologues and p.c. hypocrites are effectively in charge of both. Both are under the sway of old-school clods who consistently default to government intrusion where it doesn’t belong—who want to demonize video-game makers and criminalize abortion and hate speech and flag-burning, who are committed to maintaining the status quos of the public schools and health-care system, and who decline to make the hard choices necessary (such as enacting a high gasoline tax or encouraging nuclear energy) to move the country onto a sustainable energy track. Both line up to reject sensible, carefully negotiated international treaties when there’s too much sacrifice involved and their special-interest sugar daddies object—the Kyoto Protocol for the Republicans, the Central American Free Trade Agreement for the Democrats.

Some lifelong Republicans (such as my mother) abandoned ship in the nineties when the Evangelicals and right-to-lifers finally loomed too large in her party and Gingrich and company tried to defund public broadcasting and the national cultural endowments. As for us lifelong non-Republicans, we don’t want taxes to be any higher than necessary, but the tax-cutting monomania of the GOP these days is grotesque selfishness masquerading as principle—and truly irresponsible, given the free-spending, deficit-ballooning policies it’s also pursuing. We are appalled by the half-cynical, half-medieval mistrust and denial of science—the crippling of stem-cell research, the refusal to believe in man-made climate change. And Republicans’ ongoing willingness to go racist for political purposes (as Bush’s supporters did during the 2000 primaries) is disgusting. Demagoguery is endemic to both parties, but when it comes to exploiting fundamentally irrelevant issues (such as the medical condition of Terri Schiavo), the GOP takes the cake.

Republicans used to brag that theirs was the party of fresh thinking, but who’s brain-dead now? All the big new ideas they have trotted out lately—privatizing Social Security, occupying a big country with only 160,000 troops, Middle Eastern democracy as a force-fed contagion—have given a bad name to new paradigms.

As for the Democrats, the Republicans still have a point: Where are the brave, fresh, clear approaches passionately and convincingly laid out? When it comes to reforming entitlements, the Democrats have absolutely refused to step up. Because the teachers unions and their 4 million members are the most important organized faction of its political base, the party is wired to oppose any meaningful experimentation with charter schools or other new modes. Similarly, after beginning to embrace the inevitability of economic globalization in the nineties, and devising ways to minimize our local American pain, the Democrats’ scaredy-cat protectionist instincts seem to be returning with a vengeance. On so many issues, the ostensibly “progressive” party’s habits of mind seem anything but.
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