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  #26  
DeadKennedys DeadKennedys is offline
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 12:27 AM       
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It is her right to decide whether she wants to have one- not whether anyone else can.
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maggiekarp maggiekarp is offline
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 01:50 AM       
There's a girl in my class who might be pregnant, and she's been worrying about it alot lately. Some of the kids discussed stressing her into a miscarriage, but I think they were just joking.

Mostly we were wondering why she wasn't on birth control or didn't take the morning-after pill. Really, abortion wouldn't be such a problem if pregnancy was better prevented and people were better educated, but that's beating a dead horse.

I don't have to worry a lot about whether I'd have an abortion or not (hurhur no penis would want to hurhur), so I just support people in whatever choice they make. They're the ones who have to live with it.
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 03:36 AM       
I'm tired of mud-people and jews thinking they can understand the pain that an aryan such as myself feels when I see a mixed race couple and have to stab them both to death. Unless you're an aryan, you really can't understand what I'm feeling, and even if you are an aryan, that only gives you the right to decide whether or not to murder the untermenschen, not to question my decision to do so. Seriously, you think it's easy for me to gut a white woman for her impure sexual deeds? It's really not, but unless you know the pain my racially pure soul knows, how can you possibly judge me?




to be perfectly honest, I don't really care about abortion that much, but the idea that certain groups of human beings fundamentally cannot understand or judge the actions of other groups of human beings seems to me to have some frightening implications. If different groups of humans cannot morally judge the actions of other groups of humans, then how can the same moral rules apply to all humans? And if there is no morality that can apply to all humans, then doesn't that kind of undermine all the ideas of human equality? Why should we recognize different groups of humans if these different groups cannot recognize the rightness or wrongness of eachothers' behavior? I hope I don't come off as being a dick about this, because I genuinely don't think I have satisfactory answers to these questions myself, and would like to see if there are any serious answers. In any case I guess it could be that I'm making too big a deal of women saying that certain actions of women are beyond the ethical understanding of men. It may be that since it's pretty much just women saying such things about pretty much just abortion that it's not a really significant issue.
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 12:28 PM       
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Luckily, you only speak for yourself.
Put yourself into their place, Kevin. How would you like to live your life severely deformed, a walking vegetable relying on your mom and dad, or the state to feed you and wipe your ass for span of your entire life? Not for me, man.

Quote:
SIX occassions over the course of TEN years!!! And furthermore, not all of those cases were these horrible murders you're talking about. In fact, not even half of them appeared to be.

And this one: " 1994-AUG: Five KKK groups demonstrated adjacent to an abortion clinic in Melbourne FL. They were opposed to abortions given to whites; they encourage abortions to persons of other races. They named Hill their hero of the month."

OMG, WHAT HYPOCRITES PRO-LIFERS ARE!!? FIVE KKK GUYS PROTEST IN FLORIDA, WHAT ABOUT THAT PRO-LIFERS!!?

Ridiculous.
Six occasion in ten years IN ONE STATE.

Basically what I’m getting from you is that since the ratio of killing to the number of protesters is so low, it’s acceptable? So I guess in your view, the number of people killed at Columbine was acceptable since the ratio of those killed to the total number of students enrolled in Colorado schools was so low. I was under the impression that pro life meant PRO LIFE, not just the life that adheres to the same ridiculous superstition you do.

Thank YOU for proving my point.
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 12:50 PM       
Nah Cosmo you are still losing the debate pretty badly.

So a couple pro lifers go agaisnt their proclaimed beliefs. That doesn't prove anything about the majority of pro lifers. Its just like using the actions of a radical minority to critcize an entire religion.
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 12:50 PM       
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Originally Posted by Cosmo Electrolux
Six occasion in ten years IN ONE STATE.

Basically what I’m getting from you is that since the ratio of killing to the number of protesters is so low, it’s acceptable?
Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying.

Cosmo, you're the one who made this a matter of being consistently PRO-LIFE. You're the one who said these people who kill abortionists are hypocrites.

Then I called you out on the fact that not even HALF of the examples you cited involved homicide, and you twist the argument around.

Of course murder is wrong. Good grief. Are all anti-war protestors hypocrites because one out of every 10,000 might vandalize property or set fire to a military recruiting station? That's just absurd, much like your argument!


Quote:
So I guess in your view, the number of people killed at Columbine was acceptable since the ratio of those killed to the total number of students enrolled in Colorado schools was so low. I was under the impression that pro life meant PRO LIFE, not just the life that adheres to the same ridiculous superstition you do.
Please, stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

So in Cosmo's world, if 0.00000001% of a "movement", organization, or cause believes and/or does something wrong, then the entire group is hypocritical.

That means the civil rights movement (Black Panthers), the anti-slavery movement (John Brown), the womens rights movement (Barbara Streisand), and the environmental protection movement (ELF) are ALL immoral and hypocritical, simply because of those bad apples!!!
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 12:53 PM       
Kevin open your eyes man. Pro lifer's are some of the most violent people in the United States. They only want abortion outlawed so they can kill the babies after they taste the deliciousness of life.
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 01:44 PM       
barbra streisand is a bad apple in the women's rights barrel? what's that about?
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 01:45 PM       
I think it's more that sane pro-lifers don't really seem to be trying to stop the wackos :/
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 02:34 PM       
Sadie, it was a joke.


Maggie, why should they? That's like saying every vegetarian should be held accountable for the one guy who breaks into a animal testing laboratory. That's just silly.

Furthermore, Pro-lifers HAVE come out in opposition to such terrible acts. The friggin' Pope himself condemned targeting doctors and bombing clinics, pointing out the obvious fact that it's counter-productive, and ,uh, pretty un-Christian to say the least.
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Old Feb 28th, 2006, 10:05 AM       
"Rounds refused to sign a similar bill two years ago because he said there were technical issues. However, if the bill is written correctly, Rounds said he intends to sign it. The governor has 15 days from Monday to either sign or veto the bill. He said he will probably not take that long.


"If the bill is correctly written than I will seriously consider signing the bill," he said. "It is a direct frontal assault on Roe v. Wade.""

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1661266&page=1

Nobody can know for sure, but it looks and sounds like Rounds will sign this bill.

I'm troubled by this legislation for a couple of reasons. 1. I think it was a collective effort by one party, in one state, to simply challenge the national legal structure....to hell with the women of South Dakota. They introduced the bill right after the nomination of Alito. This is sort of a product of Roe vs. Wade to begin with, taking the issue away from the people, and putting it in the courts. Ideolouges control the issue.

Another thing that pisses me off is that I CANNOT for the life of me find the full language of the bill online, so if any internet P.I.'s can handle that, that'd be super. I have a feeling it lacks any sort of comprehensive support in the state for daycare, womens health clinics, GRADS programs (or whatever they're called in SD), etc.

However, I did learn that an amendment in SD is called something like "hoghounding", or something like that.
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Old Feb 28th, 2006, 01:00 PM       
Nevermind: http://legis.state.sd.us/sessions/2006/1215.htm
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Old Feb 28th, 2006, 03:27 PM       
having been pregnant, i'm going to have to agree with mle.

sorry, guys. you can have your opinion and you can yell at me until you're blue in the face about the life growing inside my belly and how horrible abortion is, but you will never, ever be pregnant and know what it's like to COMPLETELY LOSE YOURSELF AND YOUR BODY for the rest of your life.

this may come as a surprise to most of you, but i don't think abortions are a good thing. i'm pretty sure that i'm in line with kevin here, save for one thing: i'm pro-choice. i do, however, think that we (society) need to work towards a day where abortion doesn't have to exist. i'm not quite sure how that should happen, but banning abortion outright doesn't seem like the first step here.

my mom had an abortion. my aunt did, too. my sister? yup. all of them were under the age of 20 when they got pregnant. they didn't have reliable income, a place of their own or men in their lives that gave two shits about them, let alone the life-experience that is needed to raise a child. i'm not making excuses for them, but it was their choice to make. the only person who regretted her decision was my aunt and that's because 5 years later she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer and had to have all her baby-making parts taken out rendering her barren (raising arizona ).

yeah so, i've rambled and not said much. oh here's another personal antedote: i got pregnant when i was 22. i decided to have the baby even though i was clueless and my boyfriend beat the shit out of me. i thought it would bring us closer together, you see. well, i thank god everyday that pregnancy ended in a miscarriage because there's no fucking way in hell that i'd want to be tied to that asshole (the ex) for the rest of my life. that's one of those things that a lot of people don't think about. you have a baby with someone and you are stuck with them forever. they may not be your husband, or your boyfriend, but they are your child's father...and that can be a very unpleasant situation if daddy is a jackass.

ok. the end.
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Old Feb 28th, 2006, 03:52 PM       
ok. not the end.

i read the bill and i have this to say about it:

in regards to the section about not giving a pregnant woman any drug or chemical that can terminate a pregnancy (as defined by the bill):

they better take vitamin c, black cohash, and dong quai off the market, because i can tell you right now that the correct dosage of those supplements taken shortly after unprotected sex can make the uterus a hostile environment for a fertilized egg.

also: why isn't there an exception for cases of rape or incest?

and...

adoption. ok. i hear this talked about a lot as an option for unwanted pregnancies, but i don't think it's the answer for a lot of women. it is not so easy to decide that you are going to carry a child for 9 months only to give it up. once that baby is born, no matter what age the mother is, certain innate responses kick in (biological? i don't know) and there is a connection there. after my son was born and i got home from the hospital, my aunt and my husband took over caring for him so i could get some rest. he was out of my sight for just over 2 hours and i started to freak the hell out. i was crying, shaking, and sick to my stomach. i felt like i was dying and i'm not over-exaggerating this sensation. i had no idea what was wrong with me until my aunt brought my son in to see me. that's all i needed. the separation from him was unbearable. 2 hours, ladies and gents. that's all it took for me to have a severe nervous breakdown from being away from my kid. now granted, i wanted this child, but i can't help to think that a lot of what i was going through was biological. what do you do with a mother who gave her kid up and is going through that pain?
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Old Feb 28th, 2006, 04:33 PM       
You know, it's about time someone else started talking from a woman's point of view. My mother had an abortion when she was under 20, and she was in no shape to care for a child. She was not told the gender of the child, but when she let me know she had one later on, she said "I know it was a girl and as far as I'm concerned, her name is Becky", and started crying. After over 25 years later, it still pains her to think about it. It is not an easy decision, and I'd like to send a hearty fuck off on this subject to the people not even giving a shit about the supposed mother.
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Old Feb 28th, 2006, 04:36 PM       
If its not happening in your body, you don't have any say in what happens whatsoever.
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Old Feb 28th, 2006, 05:16 PM       
It's all a matter of approach.

To appeal to the Republicans, abortion should be re-named Fetal Eviction and argued to in terms of property rights. If life begins at conception, than an individual is squatting illegally in a womans womb. While the child may have rights or not, certainy the actual, physical womb space is property owned by the woman. She can choose to rent it, gift it, or withold it as private property. The fetus has no rights allowing it to live there any more than a homeless child taking up residence in the womans garage.

The woman has every legal right to 'evict' the fetus. What becomes of it after that is no more her concern than it would be a landlords when a Katrina refugee can no longer pay their rent, or takes up residence in an empy building which is not for rent. It's very sad, but it is not the landlord's problem.

If we allow Fetuses to be able to sieze a womans property immediately upon conception, where will it stop? What prevents a homeless man from siezing an apartment, since without it exposure to the elements might cause his death? Why can't I simply move into any emoty house and claim it as my own for at least nine months? No decent Republican wants to set that sort of precedent, no matter how pro-life they may be.
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Old Feb 28th, 2006, 06:33 PM       
The woman may have a right to do what she wants with her body but the abortion is carried out by someone else outside the woman's body and they have no automatic right to do that.

And fetuses can survive outside the woman's womb at an earlier and earlier age due to medical advances, so the baby should be kept alive after it's 'evicted' whether the mother wants it or not. The baby has a right to be kept alive if possible once it's been 'evicted'.
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Old Feb 28th, 2006, 11:06 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by glowbelly
sorry, guys. you can have your opinion and you can yell at me until you're blue in the face about the life growing inside my belly and how horrible abortion is, but you will never, ever be pregnant and know what it's like to COMPLETELY LOSE YOURSELF AND YOUR BODY for the rest of your life.
I think this is absolute crap. Sorry, ladies.

Giving grants to Planned Parenthood is actually providing support to the largest purveyor of abortion in the world. I agree with funding for abtsinence programs of course,but funding the education of kids about artificial contraception is not going to help. Artificial contraception actually leads to more abortions. Many of the types of contraception are themselves abortifacient,e.g. the low dose pill and IUD both allow fertililization but make the uterus hostile to implantation. They also foster a more cavalier and more casual attitude towards sex, which is not part of God's plan for society.

Those are the words of a relative of mine. She has in fact had five babies. So glow, by your math, her 5 to your 1 makes her the rightest.

This is absurd, and it trivializes the issue. I'm sorry, but I think this issue is about more than the nine months of pregnancy. We want men t take responsibility and to be fathers when they get a woman pregnant, yet we cultivate an attitude in society that those same men A. ultimately have no say in the matter, and B. have sevral levels of escape from their mistake. This encourages their shitty behavior, and in my opinion, leaves it as the "mother's problem."

If we allow men to act like alley cats, constantly providn them with an escape hatch, then they will continue to act that way.


Quote:
this may come as a surprise to most of you, but i don't think abortions are a good thing. i'm pretty sure that i'm in line with kevin here, save for one thing: i'm pro-choice. i do, however, think that we (society) need to work towards a day where abortion doesn't have to exist. i'm not quite sure how that should happen, but banning abortion outright doesn't seem like the first step here.
This isn't surprising at all. Nobody that I know of actualy supports the actual practice of abortion, BUT thinks it is a necessary evil.

I don't think overturning Roe is going to end abortion, but I do think it was a poor ruling. It made it so Americans couldn't have any policy debate over it, and instead made it a wedge issue for petulant interest groups to use in order to raise cash.

I do want to see Roe overturned, and I don't mind seeing states addressing this issue as they see fit. However, I would rather see a more comprehensive plan to stop abortion, which in my mind would include funding social programs, making contraception readily available, and making adoption a smoother, less bureacratic process at the state level. This legislation is totally devoid of anything like that, and is simply a political move to take advantage of a conservative court. It shows no regard for real people, and shows quite clearly how the GOP in South Dakota is using the state for nothing more than ideology.
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Old Mar 1st, 2006, 12:12 AM       
kevin, i don't want to argue with you. i told you that you have a right to your opinion on this matter and i've told you my opinion AND we've heard your very experienced with babies relative's opinion. it doesn't change the fact that you, as a man, will never know what it's like to have to make a decision on whether or not to have an abortion.

that's all i'm saying.

also, i never said it was only about the pregnancy. you must have missed the part where i said that a child changes you for the rest of your life. that includes a child that you carry to term and decide to give up for adoption. it changes you in ways that you, AS A MAN, will never be able to understand.

you just can't comprehend it. i wish there was some kind of analogy for you, but there isn't.

i'm not trying to trivialize anything here.

and i think cosmo's point about men having babies is kinda true. there's no way in hell that abortion would be illegal if men were having kids. i'm sorry buddy, but i don't know a man who could handle being preggo, let alone giving birth.

ok, that was a bit of trivialization

psst: it is a mother's problem. always will be. ya know why? cause we're the ones having babies. (TRIVIALIZATION?)
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Old Mar 1st, 2006, 12:17 AM       
glowbelly: women don't get knocked up just to have an abortion

MrAdventurePants: you are right there, unless maybe the baby is made out of diamonds and you are scrooge mcduck?

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Old Mar 1st, 2006, 12:28 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by glowbelly
it doesn't change the fact that you, as a man, will never know what it's like to have to make a decision on whether or not to have an abortion.
Jesus tap dancing Christ, I give up.....


Quote:
it changes you in ways that you, AS A MAN, will never be able to understand.
Awesome, and there's many, many, many, many, many, many,many, many, many, many, many, many, many, mnay....MANY women who HAVE gone through that experience, who HAVE felt that change, and who ARE PRO-LIFE AS FUCK!!!


And there was nothing valid about Cosmo's point.

Nevermind, I give up....
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Old Mar 1st, 2006, 03:06 AM       
I didn't think I'd ever imagine Scrooge McDuck hanging around the Planned Parenthood, rubbing his hands together greedily.

Having the babies were that woman's choice, and what's right for some isn't necessarilly right for others.

Saying that men don't understand having that sort of decision is valid, but to say that only women should be able to make that sort of decision based on the ability to make babies doesn't make alot of sense. What about infertile women, or crazy baby-factory women?

I'm pro-choice because, although I know I wouldn't personally have an abortion unless it was one of those necessary situations, there are people who really really shouldn't be procreating and should be allowed to make that choice.
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Old Mar 1st, 2006, 07:27 AM       
glowbelly, you seem to be forgetting that men are changed by having children too, and you as a WOMAN will never know what it's like to be a father. And you'll never know what it's like to have your healthy child aborted even though you want to keep it. A child is made by a woman and a man, so whether you like it or not men have a right to say what they think about abortion, it effects them as well as women.
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Old Mar 1st, 2006, 09:04 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by maggiekarp
Having the babies were that woman's choice, and what's right for some isn't necessarilly right for others.
this is exactly what i mean.

i don't know what else to say. it scares me to think what's going to happen if roe is overturned. there goes my right to choose what to do with my body. men can't possibly comprehend that.

and i say again: where's the exception in this bill in cases of rape or incest? not that i would feel any better about it, but come on. you mean to tell me that you think it's ok for women to have to have babies that they DEFINITELY DID NOT CHOOSE TO HAVE?

that's ok with you? because they can just give them up for adoption, right? no biggy, huh? well, all i have to say to that is fuck ya. fuck ya right in the ear. that's damn bullshit.
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