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Old Aug 29th, 2009, 06:05 PM       
One of my old friends said that this used to be my song and I used to play it all the time, but I'd never heard it till he told me that.
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Old Aug 31st, 2009, 07:13 PM       
and here I thought there was going to be intense intellectual discussion when I got back and i was gonna be in for some shit :O

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But that was initially supposed to be the reason Capital Punishment existed in the first place ... and was listed as one of the reasons it was "brought back from the dead".

That was a long time ago, and I concede that I may be misremembering events.
Yea. That may be the case but it doesn't really matter why it was restarted. It matters why it should continue.

And on that topic, I think that the death penalty should not exist because it is always wrong to act with the intent to kill somebody. Whether you are killing somebody who has done good, or somebody who has done bad -- it is always wrong. On account of this, the death penalty should not be allowed because it acts with the intent to kill somebody.

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Old Sep 1st, 2009, 10:46 AM       
What about war?
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Old Sep 1st, 2009, 07:25 PM       
Or self defense.
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Old Sep 2nd, 2009, 01:44 PM       
I think by Kahls own idea there self defense is ok. You dont go into that situation with intent to kill. Your just looking to defend yourself and your loved ones. But again what about war? You go into that knowing you will be killing people and its a bit different than self defense.
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Old Sep 2nd, 2009, 03:49 PM       
When I defend myself, I intend to never have to deal with the attacker again.
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Old Sep 2nd, 2009, 04:01 PM       
In a way, the death penalty is self defense.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 06:21 AM       
I'd rather think that every time I had to kill someone I had to justify it first, rather than hope a blanket statement (killing is WRONG) can cover every situation. If you can justify it then it's right, right? Right. If killing someone would be justice, then you should do it. So far I haven't personally found myself killing anyone.

I'm a sucker for prefering my own morals over the law though. So I don't expect everyone to follow this mantra.

Same with war; if you can justify the war then it's ok. The hard part is justifying it first, and so far I think the vast percentage of wars are un-justified. From the attackers point of view, of course.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 01:29 PM       
I can't say if killing is right or wrong, but it is very serious and in my book pretty dam final. I don't really believe in an afterlife. For me to kill would take a lot or it would be a split second fight or flight scenario.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 01:41 PM       
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Same with war; if you can justify the war then it's ok. The hard part is justifying it first, and so far I think the vast percentage of wars are un-justified. From the attackers point of view, of course.
But attackers are often provoked by actions of other states.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 02:21 PM       
Some people deserve to die. Plain and simple. If you are found deserving I would be happy to push the button myself. I have no qualms about that.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 02:25 PM       
Yeah, I think Hitler said something like that.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 02:51 PM       
You better watch it, Tadao. Dimnos can find you.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 03:01 PM       
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 03:49 PM       
Bah. Im not killing people because of their race or that I just dont like them. Im talking about the baby killers and child rapists and serial killers. Bitches best step off my mini-wheats.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 05:18 PM       
I typed a response to this thread last night and my computer updated in the middle of it and rebooted ;/

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Your just looking to defend yourself and your loved ones. But again what about war? You go into that knowing you will be killing people and its a bit different than self defense.
Okay well I have a few responses to this, the first thing I will say is that, even in war and self-defense, killing people is wrong.
Also, not everybody in the military signs up to "Kill people." A lot of people join so they can get a college education or be noble. The war is secondary to that, and a lot of them don't want to be in a situation which they are forced to participate in In the past, a lot of wars had draftees, so the people really didn't want to be there.
Which brings me to my next point: one of the key justifications I've heard for war, especially concerning the difference between a soldier and an assassin, is that soldiers aren't really supposed to be going somewhere to kill people. War could be said to be the perpetual placing of trained killers into situations in which they will have to defend themselves in order to achieve an objective, for the sake of themselves and loved ones.
The purpose of war is never to kill people. The intent of war is generally to capture stuff and make it so that the enemy can't attack you. This can be achieved in multiple ways, not just by killing people. Incapacitating a person, demoralizing the enemy etc. are all alternatives to the actual killing of people. And, interestingly, in self-defense, (imprisonment as far as I am saying) and also war, killing somebody after they have been incapacitated or are unable to fight back is a crime (or a war crime).

Basically, isn't war more about defending yourself, your loved ones and your country than about killing folks? And aren't wars seemingly oriented around killin folk generally considered abhorrent? Holocaust?

I might also say that soldiers have relinquished themselves to a different form of justice, but I don't really want to go there right now

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I intend to never have to deal with the attacker again.
By incapacitating them safely within the confines a prison, I hope. Because otherwise you sir are a murderer or, at best, a manslaughterer.

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In a way, the death penalty is self defense.
So is incapacitating them, or imprisoning them.

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If you can justify it then it's right, right?
No. The act of killing (with the intent to do so) can never be right. For example, in self-defense, the act of self-defense is right, the idea of being passive and letting somebody else kill you is not right (if its wrong for you to kill them, its wrong for them to kill you); Regardless of this, it is still wrong to kill that person if you acted with the intent to do so.

If you try hard enough, you can justify almost anything. Most wars can and have been justified, does that make them all right? What counts as a "justification," exactly, anyway? Without blanket, moral statements its difficult to have any standard by which to "justify" things.

Is going to war for terrorists i mean for oil i mean to spread democracy in iraq and to liberate the gentle folk dwelling therein from a cruel and heartless dictator justified or unjustified? And what is it that makes it justified or unjustified?
It's not like hitler didn't have justification for what he was doing, either.

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the vast percentage of wars are un-justified.
According to what? Maybe these wars were just spearheaded by persons who followed their own morals over the law.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 05:23 PM       
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Some people deserve to die. Plain and simple. If you are found deserving I would be happy to push the button myself. I have no qualms about that.
lol maybe we'll get into desserts next.

just desserts
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 05:30 PM       
wtf?
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 05:46 PM       
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By incapacitating them safely within the confines a prison, I hope. Because otherwise you sir are a murderer or, at best, a manslaughterer.
False. You can kill someone and not be charged with a crime if it is ruled self defense.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 05:50 PM       
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False. You can kill someone and not be charged with a crime if it is ruled self defense.
If you are defending yourself and knock somebody out or make them unable to attack you (incapacitate) them, and then after all this is over you walk up to them and cap a bullet right into the middle of their forehead, you can be charged with a crime. Because the point at which you incapacitate them is when you have stopped defending yourself.

"if it is ruled self-defense." In that case, the murder wouldn't be ruled self-defense. At best, you could argue that you were over-taken by emotions. Self-defense isn't supposed to be about KILLING the other guy, but about making it so they can't attack you.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 05:51 PM       
Where did I insinuate that I would incapacitate and then terminate in my post?
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 05:55 PM       
"I intend to never have to deal with the attacker again" *angry face.*

I think your intent is obvious with statements like, "You can kill somebody and not be charged with a crime if it was ruled in self-defense" after i said that I hope you mean by incapacitating them.

You could PROBABLY also be charged with a crime if they could prove that you could've incapacitated them but chose to kill them instead.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 05:57 PM       
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Originally Posted by kahljorn
Also, not everybody in the military signs up to "Kill people." A lot of people join so they can get a college education or be noble. The war is secondary to that, and a lot of them don't want to be in a situation which they are forced to participate in In the past, a lot of wars had draftees, so the people really didn't want to be there.
Im sure most people dont join the military to kill people. Im sure most of them do to, like you said, the college education or the money or just dont have much else to do with their lives. However they know that going to war and being in a situation where they have to kill someone is a real possibility. When they decide to join up that was a decision you made that put you one step closer to that situation. Whereas when you are in your home and someone kicks your door in to rob you or whatever you made no decision. You were just placed in that situation.

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Originally Posted by kahljorn
Which brings me to my next point: one of the key justifications I've heard for war, especially concerning the difference between a soldier and an assassin, is that soldiers aren't really supposed to be going somewhere to kill people. War could be said to be the perpetual placing of trained killers into situations in which they will have to defend themselves in order to achieve an objective, for the sake of themselves and loved ones.
That is a very idealistic way to look at it but I can see what you mean. Armies are for defensive purposes in a perfect world.

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Originally Posted by kahljorn
The purpose of war is never to kill people.
I believe there are some Hutus in Africa that would disagree with you on this. However for the most part you are correct. For those of us that live in the "civilized" world killing people is never the purpose of war, its just a byproduct. You cant make an omelet without breaking some eggs. If you are a soldier holding a fortified position and a bunch of guy come running at you with automatic weapons what is the best way of stopping them from killing you and/or getting past you to whoever or whatever you are defending?


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Originally Posted by kahljorn
The intent of war is generally to capture stuff and make it so that the enemy can't attack you. This can be achieved in multiple ways, not just by killing people. Incapacitating a person, demoralizing the enemy etc. are all alternatives to the actual killing of people.
Incapacitating an attacker isnt always a viable option. I am in agreement with you that when it is possible it should be done. Nonlethal weapons and technology have only recently made huge advancements and many groups such as police departments use them. However on the battlefield they are still "around the corner" and lethal force is still the only viable option in many situations.

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Originally Posted by kahljorn
And, interestingly, in self-defense, (imprisonment as far as I am saying) and also war, killing somebody after they have been incapacitated or are unable to fight back is a crime (or a war crime).
Totally with you on this one. Again I would like to point out that Im only really for killing people after they have repeatedly assaulted and/or killed and either show no remorse or interest in rehabilitation. I would rather put them down before they put someone else down.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 06:02 PM       
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You could PROBABLY also be charged with a crime if they could prove that you could've incapacitated them but chose to kill them instead.
That's a reach.
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Old Sep 3rd, 2009, 06:04 PM       
Im not sure about elsewhere in the USA but here in Texas if you kick in my door and just stand there looking at me I have the right to shoot you on the spot. You broke into my house, I felt endangered, I defended myself the only way I thought I could. You dont want to get shot? Dont go breaking into peoples houses.
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