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Sethomas Sethomas is offline
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Old Mar 25th, 2004, 03:46 AM        My thesis is DONE!
Actually, in a way it's only just begun. At this point I would like to completely keep my eyes off of it, submit it to a diverse group of people and have them tear it apart for me to make it better.

I put it into the format of the Chicago Manual of Style, in which it is just over 40 pages. What is it about? I have a theological theory that all souls are eternal, and I explain that this assumption undermines determinism as a threat to religious concepts. I start out very Catholic but later speak in more ecumenical tone, but really the philosophy can be applied to any religion pretty much.

Anyone want to read it? Send me a PM if so.
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Old Mar 25th, 2004, 10:07 AM       
I'm sorry, I know you said this at some point, but is this thesis for an MA in Philosiphy, or a PHD or is it a dgree in comparitive religion or what all?
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Old Mar 25th, 2004, 08:56 PM       
I wrote it for the sheer fun of it. I would like to apply it to a degree someday, but right now my only interest is the persuit of knowledge.
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Old Mar 25th, 2004, 11:41 PM       
Congradulations.
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Old Mar 26th, 2004, 01:04 PM       
I'd be interested in a summary but in all honesty I doubt I have the attention span to read the whole thing. :P
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Old Mar 26th, 2004, 01:06 PM       
I'd love to attempt to sift through it. How absurdly complex is it?
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Old Mar 26th, 2004, 01:36 PM       
I tried to write it in layman's terms as much as possible and write at a tolerable pace, so I don't think it's too difficult to understand. If you want a shorter version of it, go to the Writings section of my webpage and read the most recent essay on Metaphysical Consequence.
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Old Mar 26th, 2004, 02:20 PM       
Thx seth.
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Old Mar 26th, 2004, 04:05 PM       
I would love to (as i have my BA in phil) but I am ridiculously busy right now until July. After that I would like to read it.
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Old Mar 26th, 2004, 07:32 PM       
I'd like to check it out !
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Old Mar 26th, 2004, 10:18 PM       
Yeah, I'd be interested.
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Old Mar 28th, 2004, 04:26 AM       
I put it online with some extra goodies.

Go to http://home.uchicago.edu/~stp/writings/w-ind.html , then download and unzip "Coeternalism Fun Pack". It has the thesis, an abbreviation, a glossary, an FAQ, and a revision of my proof of God's existence.
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Old Mar 31st, 2004, 12:38 AM       
Initial impressions - coeternalism's a very interesting idea and I think you did a good job keeping it consistent with the modern scientific viewpoint. I sort of liken it to spreading out a movie reel, which would the the universe. All units of time are like frames of a movie. Time is more complicated than that, but a workable metaphor I guess. A few thoughts:

Your view seems quite similar to predestination. But more than that - a soul is already in Heaven or Hell even before the human is conceived (on the scale of within the universe)... or does it make no sense to say this, given that the soul exists wholly outside of time?

On causation: If the universe is designed by the ethereal collective, why is it that causation exists? The ethereal collective could very well have made pool balls behave differently, or randomly. Rather they bounce around in precisely predictable patterns. No answer on why our particular universe is the way it is. Should we expect one? It does seem then, that the explanatory power of coeternalism is limited.

On abortion et al: But if you concede determinism, why should ethics matter? to abort, or not to abort -- since we don't have free will in the traditional sense we can't 'help it'. Obviously an old question, but what's your take?

On the soul and personal identity: What is it about the soul that makes it 'us', and what should we expect in the afterlife? If it reflects the summation of one's life, should we expect a nice continuation in the afterlife, like waking up after a nap? And isn't it logically possible to have 'soul swapping'? How do I know that I haven't traded souls with Michael Jackson?

K, that's it for now!!
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Old Mar 31st, 2004, 01:18 AM       
a soul is already in Heaven or Hell even before the human is conceived (on the scale of within the universe)... or does it make no sense to say this, given that the soul exists wholly outside of time?

In the early days, I held the view that heaven and hell were eternal states that exist parallel to all time, so in a sense it would be true that the soul is in them before its very conception. A few months ago I came to the concession that if the afterlife were eternal, it wouldn't be actively experienced and so it would be pointless, so I abandoned belief in the afterlife. A couple weeks ago I found a loophole in that the Catechism never affirms the eternity of heaven, so I took to the theory that the universe's expansion would slow down sometime in the future. So, the current idea is that if the afterlife exists at all, it does during the eon itself and is therefore not actually eternal, though by a technicallity it's endless.


If the universe is designed by the ethereal collective, why is it that causation exists?

I think that a large part is that coherence is more aesthetically pleasing than stochasticism. I know that this is not a particularly strong answer, but I've yet to really tackle this issue. Another thing is that I think that the laws of mathematics would be true no matter what, i.e., there could never be a universe in which 2+3=7.

But if you concede determinism, why should ethics matter?

I think that ethics matter for the perpetuation of the human race, but not nearly so much at the personal level as contemporary religion holds. I didn't write so much about it because I want to avoid stepping on toes, truthfully. There was a lot that I wanted to borrow from the last chapter of The Illusion of Conscious Will, but I figured I had quoted Wegner enough already.

What is it about the soul that makes it 'us'

I actually believe that it's best to leave this issue to whatever religion one abides by, simply for the fact that it's nothing that can be tested or scrutinized in a rigorous manner. I actually considered writing that the Hindu look on this makes a great deal of sense in Coeternalism, but I left it out for now. I do think it's possible that people share souls, or borrow souls, or whatever, but for now I'm just going to stick to the Catechism in my writings. Maybe later, though.
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Old Apr 2nd, 2004, 12:19 PM       
The chimp requested that I post an abstract of the theory, so here it is.

For the past few centuries, a rift has been growing between religion and science. The issues of heliocentrism and evolution have come and gone, but a much deeper conflict has received scant attention. Newton’s unveiling of the laws of physics in the seventeenth century gave birth to two new scientific schools of thought: determinism and reductionism. Determinism is the principle in which one concedes that a given set of conditions and motions will irrevocably result in a given set of consequences. Reductionism is the mode of thinking in which any process can be understood by being broken down into its constituent parts and motions. Coupling these two principles together, one must concede that an advanced intelligence could predict the future of the universe if it were able to know everything about the present characteristics and momenta of all of its particles. To provide an example for the laymen, if you have a set of ingredients and a recipe of instructions, by determinism and reductionism one could predict the final product.
Reductionism and determinism have a profound effect upon theology when they are applied to the human mind. Neuroscience and psychology have come to the point of understanding that virtually all aspects of human thinking can be rationalized by analysis of the brain’s composition and perceptions. This effectively denies the possibility of the orthodox belief that the soul steers one’s life through her daily routine. If there were some force that could be said to correspond to the soul guiding the body, it certainly would have been discovered now. Belief in the soul and free will have become so antiquated that belief in them has been utterly abandoned in modern science.
I have seen and experienced many remarkable things in this world which have imparted in me a powerful belief in God, and ultimately the soul. I have long held that science is the pen with which God drafted the history of the universe and human endeavor, so I refuse to allow the laity to pit religion against science in what seems to be mortal combat for domination. Thus I realized that religion must be wholly reinvented in order to survive the next leap into modernity.
Years ago I began to notice quirks in chronology when I felt that God was intervening into my life. Chance happenings and trivial circumstances would manifest themselves months later into profound consequences. I began to understand that in perspective of eternity, all of time is laid out at once like a book that has already been written. Curious of what else has been said along these lines, I began to study the metaphysical works of some of the great minds of Western thinking. Over the course of several years, I slowly began to uncover my own theory of how the soul maintains agency over the body without violating the laws of science.
While on leave of absence from my university education, I came to the conclusion that the central difference between my theory and orthodox religion is that I see the soul as eternal, while contemporary religion holds it to be merely immortal. That is, I concluded that the soul is without beginning and sits in transcendence of the passage of time. In my theory, the soul has always existed and will never perish. All the souls of human history, as well as the divine will of God, comprise what I call the ethereal collective. In an act of pure will, the ethereal collective forged the entire history of the universe at once, although this actually amounts to simply determining the forces of nature and the particle-antiparticle ratios of the big bang. Because all of time runs parallel to eternity, cause and effect relationships are much more skewed than in common perception. In Coeternalism there are metaphysical consequence and metaphysical aesthetic, both referring to when minor effects happen to set the precedent for some necessitated event. An example of metaphysical consequence would be a Hoosier soldier’s chance observation of a cigar roll that ended up being Confederate battle plans, it being the consequence of the North’s necessary victory in the Battle of Gettysburg three days later. An example of metaphysical aesthetic would be a song on the radio that triggers thoughts of a certain person with whom one is required to make contact. In Coeternalism, nothing is the product of chance. All of life and human history is a meticulously drawn work of art, and intricate story, replete with literary mechanics and poetic devices.
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Old Apr 2nd, 2004, 02:00 PM       
Bravo. If I were more into science and less attached to my notion of free will, this theory would probably draw me in in a second. As it is, it certainly appeals to my aesthetics and sounds like a good bit of writing if the summary is any indication.
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Old Apr 2nd, 2004, 03:38 PM       
I think you have overstated the friction between science and religion. Determinism is being beaten over the head by advances into quantum physics and string theory, while reductionism can never be proven correct as it implies that there is no end to break down of parts.
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Old Apr 2nd, 2004, 04:01 PM       
Determinism is being beaten over the head by advances into quantum physics and string theory

Only in the Laplacian understanding is determinism undermined by modern science. I go into explicit detail on the matter in my thesis.

reductionism can never be proven correct as it implies that there is no end to break down of parts.

Reductionism doesn't imply that, dude. It implies that anything may be understood if the most fundamental level of matter is realized, which is what String theory is doing right now.[/i]
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Old Apr 2nd, 2004, 05:56 PM       
But reductionism must imply it. Otherwise, how are we to understand how your theoretical fundamental matter performs various processes?
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Old Apr 2nd, 2004, 06:58 PM       
Fantastic work, Seth; I'm not seeing any flaws yet.

Are you planning on publishing some of these ideas?
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Old Apr 2nd, 2004, 08:58 PM       
For a while I had aspirations of publishing my theory and raking in cash, then be hailed as the intellectual leader of the known universe. It didn't take long for me to realize that this would be bad karma, and that I should propogate it merely for the sake of knowledge rather than personal gain so that it may succeed. One principle reason for this is that my theory is much like Watson and Crick's discovery of the double helix: my conclusions, while drastically different from anything else out there, were merely extrapolated from the work of many of my predecesors. I should not expect fortune to reward me for merely standing on the shoulders of giants.

My plan as of now is to collect constructive criticisms and strengthen the theory accordingly until I'm finally satisfied with a wholly reinvented thesis. At that point I'll probably make a website with all the tenants of the theory and put it up for free viewing by the public. I see my work as a remedy to a pandemic problem of faith, so it would be selfish and perhaps foolhardy for me to try to monopolize it.

One thing that I would like to publish are my memoirs, following in the footsteps of Augustine and Aquinas with their Confessions. The one thing I would like to impress upon the world is that my faith in Coeternalism is firmly rooted in the serendipity I've witnessed in my life. Of course, to make it interesting I should add at least another decade of hedonism and soul searching to it. Truthfully, what I read into my future from my past is that I will probably not live long enough to write such a book, much less see it published. But time will tell.
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Old Apr 2nd, 2004, 09:55 PM       
You're not allowed to publish your memoirs until you're so old that you have to dictate.

Anyways, nice abstract. I can't say that I agree with everything (I'll read your full thesis sometime ) but it looks well thought out.
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Old Apr 2nd, 2004, 10:39 PM       
This is an addendum to the FAQ to answer a point raised by Spinster. I feel that it's impossible to make a truly good answer to this question, but I did my best.

With the concession of determinism, how is it that ethics matters? Are we not “destined” to follow a path of good or evil, with no real choice in the matter?
In short, the Coeternal explanation is that the tendency to adhere to ethics is the metaphysical consequence of having a benevolent soul. It is difficult, however, to rationalize the phenomena of ethical deliberation in deterministic terms. Coeternalism holds that conscious will is the manifestation of ethereal will in such a way that while choosing between good and evil is a passive progression of consciousness, it is experienced as an active process. Problems are incurred when one who realizes determinism feels that all her actions are the product of inevitable compulsion and is thus spurred into apathy, feeling unable to control her own life. The error in this mode of thinking is that while conscious will is irrevocably illusory, it is by no means worthless. The coherent passage of human history is dependent upon the axiom that each individual feels that she is the sole originator of her actions. In the list of causes that determine one’s course of actions, foremost is the very emotion of volition. Regardless of how we may realize that all actions are compelled, life entails the feeling that one is choosing between good and evil. The choice that one makes is indeed respective of her eternal destiny, so anyone should feel the need to act morally. The idea that one should surrender her faculties to however “fate” steers her is intrinsically flawed; the abandonment of moral identity is no less the product of volition than the partaking of conscious will, even if this is a mere illusion.
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Old Apr 5th, 2004, 11:01 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
But reductionism must imply it. Otherwise, how are we to understand how your theoretical fundamental matter performs various processes?
It's an unfair characterization of reductionism. I think Dennett is right in basically calling it materialism. Cranes from the bottom-up, or mysterious skyhooks from the top-down. Which would you prefer?

Dennett also makes the valid point against what he calls "greedy" reductionism, that is, saying everything can be explained in terms of strings without going into detail.
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