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Kulturkampf Kulturkampf is offline
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Old Feb 24th, 2009, 06:48 PM        Kulturkampf's Fun-Time Philosophy Jamboree! (merged)
Sacrifice is the basis of all morality because the fundamental essence of the human being is one that is self-centered and demanding. The human is wired like all animals: it desires foremost to survive, and anything beyond survival focuses on attaining pleasure. As Freud noted, the human animal in its basic form, its "id," focuses on attaining pleasure and avoiding pain.

Morality is often measured by how much sacrifice is made.

Saints sacrifice their animal instincts often in acts of martyrdom, or in dedicating their free time to helping the impoverished to such an extent that they choose poverty and celibacy in order to dedicate the whole of themselves to others.

All people within a society must sacrifice -- a father and mother must work hard to support the child who is too young to support themselves. A friend who does not sacrifice a portion of themselves for the other person is not truly upholding their friendship.

In marriage and sexual relationships, people often enter agreements that entail sacrifice -- in order to not produce feelings of jealousy, people do not engage in sex outside of their relationship or only do so under specific agreements. Any relationship where there are not agreements on boundaries of sexuality is doomed to producing innate feelings of jealousy in any human. The human animal naturally wants a sense of security and consistency and not to be left dependent on the whims of their partner -- the notion of not having such agreements is alien to most relationships because without this sense of sacrificing animal urges to be sexually fulfilled in any number of ways it takes away from the human desire for security of their possessions and a sense of elitism, dominance, etc. that plays to the ego.

In fact, in old relationships where women had no say in the sexual activities of their men (and vice versa) they cannot even really be deemed a relationship but rather a slave-like status to the un-empowered member of the union.

All of our ideas of sexual morality hinge around the notion of sacrificing the basic urge to mate with anything.

Our other agreements also involve sacrifice... We live in societies with rules that preclude theft, murder, etc. and in any society which has a concept of justice all members of it are bound by these laws. This means that all moral people within the society have subdued and ended their desires to murder or steal.

However, it is also important to note that as in the animal Kingdom there are plenty of humans who are fundamentally weaker and more cowardly than others; these people essentially make no sacrifice in the bargain, and if they are merely avoiding doing these things because they feel it will doom them they are basically not moral people. The only moral people within the society are the people capable of exploitation of others yet sacrifice their ability to do so because of the fact that they honor the bond within the community.

This is why child abuse is viewed as one of the lowest crimes: a child is defenseless against an able-bodied adult. Any person who abuses children is committing the most grievous of crimes against the community because they are preying on the weakest members of the society.

To live within a moral community one must have sacrifice; the more sacrifices made to help others proves the further distance that the person or community has made from its most basic animal urges to fulfill their bestial desires.

In a very real sense, Communism represents the most moral system, ideally, as it entails that all members of the community forsake luxury for the benefit of everyone.

Even if we were to believe that the 'rich are being rewarded for their hard labor' this would not be that moral in and of itself... For hard labor that is done for the sake of individual gain is not fundamentally moral.

Capitalism is an amoral idea in its essence and to some extent it is the government surrendering its role in the moral systems of the people and rather enabling the people to make their own choices.

People often wonder why war is glorified but the answer is quite simple: it is the ultimate sacrifice for the society and community as a whole. The warrior is the most honored occupation in any decent society because it is recognized as the most fundamental building block of the community. As such, Firefighters and Police are also held in high esteem.

An occupation should be valued by the amount of sacrifice given in the service to the community. But the sacrifice must be by the will of the person -- someone who performs moral tasks out of necessity is not actually doing anything moral. Moral action by coercion is not moral, but rather, it is enslaving another person.

In order to be a moral person one must not have a slave mentality and one must be in complete communion with their own Person and Desires. Only a free person, making a free choice, is capable of a moral action (this is why the notion of Free Will is strong in the Christian religion).

This is also why Christians should never intend to control the morality of the society as it fundamentally violates a tenet of their own religion.

This is why people who simply and cowardly go with the flow of the society gain no respect.

To go back to an idea of Henrik Ibsen -- he who stands most alone is most right, most strong, in many senses of the word; for the person who stands most alone is the person who is most capable of moral choice.

The lowest form of existence is mindlessness. The highest form of existence is mindful sacrifice in the name of those who are deserving.

Any society where the common person lives in a world without sacrifice is a society which is approaching its own death, for in the circumstance where sacrifice is continued for the existence of the society, the society crumbles.

Societies that enforce rote conformity are societies where moral actions become impossible; and societies that cultivate only individual indulgence begin failing in even being societies because the members of these communities have no moral connection to one another.

Freedom of choice is necessary for a moral society.
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Kulturkampf Kulturkampf is offline
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Old Feb 24th, 2009, 07:04 PM       
I wrote in another thread that morality requires the freedom of choice, the choice of sacrifice.

Thus, my conclusion is simple:

A moral individual must be free.

Without choice in their actions they are incapable of a moral act.

And more than this: a person who is moral must be making a decision in any moral act, and the ultimate decisions in morality stem from knowledge of the situation.

Thus: each individual must be an explorer of their own world and their own moral choices to come to realizations on what are proper and moral actions.

Thus: each individual must Live.

Thus: one must not simply just be following a Christian or other ethical system, but must be consciously doing so and doing so not in fear of hell, but rather in knowledge of the truth behind any such choice.

And so:

I spend my life exploring the basis of my own moral choices by understanding the ramifications of my own actions. Towards this end, I have even committed sins...

Oh, have I committed sins, and Oh, have I enjoyed and loathed each moment of it. It has produced a profound paradox of feelings inside of an individual and has lead to finding out what is the proper path for the fulfillment of the most moral life.

All people must understand their actions and their meanings...

This is why youth, intelligent youth, is characterized as embracing a sense of the wild: they have not yet gone through all of the stages of understanding their broad actions. And that's OK.

One has to sink to the lowest depths sometimes to understand why an action is immoral.

Sexual avarice, violence, etc. are fueled by emotions that are fundamental to a human -- the desire for sexual gratification, the desire for gratifying the impulses of revenge and anger, etc.

Until one understands the pain of sexual indulgence and the fruitlessness of the course one does not understand that monogamous relationships are the ideal path of one's choice -- it would take someone who is less doubting, less questioning to understand this. Of course, one can come to these conclusions by their own feelings of jealousy in sexual relationships and oddly this also produces a sense of revenge within the individual to harm others through their own vengeful, sexual indulgences.

Until one understands the pain and humiliation of physical violence enacted upon oneself or another, one might not understand why violence towards an opponent is unacceptable. It is clear, even in victory, that the thorough humiliation of an opponent often is excessive.

A beaten, broken individual looking up to you for mercy with swollen eyes and blood in their mouth is the greatest argument against fighting for no-good reason.

A jealous, spurned lover, feeling their inadequacies, with whom you have cultivated a close personal relationship is the greatest argument against sexual indulgence.

This is often why theft is one of the easiest things to justify: one does not often see the reactions of those from whom they stole, and one easily justifies their petty thefts by saying 'these people probably have enough.' Few people realize that often it is the common worker who suffers from theft.

Few people also realize that many artists whose work is pirated end up living impoverished lives because of it. A good example are the bands who have gained popularity through internet downloads yet still are normal functionaries in society -- bands like the Oppressed which have tens of thousands of people downloading their music annually but still depend on the earnings of a Pizza parlor in Cardiff, Wales.

I think that people with doubts on moral actions should experiment in them.

The easiest way to learn the truth of an action is to engage in it, to find the moral path within it.

Towards this end society should enable people to make their own choices on all levels so that they are capable of moral action.
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Kulturkampf Kulturkampf is offline
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Old Feb 24th, 2009, 10:27 PM        Manifesto Of The Noble Savage
In the modern age we find ourselves as never before surrounded by meaningless prosperity that historically marks the death of any civilized society; we see the morals of the world gnawed upon by the pathetic existence amongst hitherto unknown pleasures. Our humanity is undermined by new languages and ideas that prevent criticism and thoughtfulness; our humanity is put in jeopardy by forcefed decadence and materialism.

Our souls decay under the naked technologies which direct us into pointless futures measured by a warped sense of tolerance and misguided materialism.

It is impossible to find a shard of primordial grandeur in the world we have landed ourselves in. We have to recreate it using only our ancestral inspirations and the phlegm coughed up from our throats sickened by the pestilence of a dying civilization.

We look to attractive celebrities for advice and listen to politicians trying to placate us in exchange for votes, having no care for actual, objective truth and only interest in the subjective whims of the lowest common denominating voters. They even teach us to tolerate the intolerable in the name of ascertaining trade deals.

The basic essence of humanity has been recast into a mold of polity and decadence. We are to politely accept our bread & circuses from our governments and follow the prescribed rules they have agreed upon (because apparently the tyrannical rule of a stupid, ignorant majority is the new battle cry of the rulers who through long, tireless study have learned the proper messages to be presented so they can lap from the bowl of Pride & Power served by the ignorant masses they have made into their cheering crowds of maidservants and serfs).

I call for something older and bolder for our earthly existence -- I would like to see a new movement of people who reject every concept enacted upon us by modern, secular governments and decaying, equivocating religions.

Do not content yourself with the Now and do not have faith in the Future. It's all a lie wrapped up in a fancy box, presented to you as meaningful, but in reality they are only giving you a cold, dignity-free gift.

I want to see the world economy collapse and every visionless dreamer fall from their pedestal of decency. I want to see society cast into the cleansing fires of annihilation and rebuilt in its ashes.

I just have a few simple things that I would like to see the good people of the world do:

(1) Reject tolerance for morality.
(2) Reject decency for dignity.
(3) Reject peace for war, "the world's only hygiene" (F. T. Marinetti)
(4) Reject control for liberty.
(5) Reject vanity for truth.
(6) Reject money for time.
(7) Reject intellectualism for simplicity in action.

You must:

(8) Purge the religious of those who use it as a modern convenience.
(9) Purge the atheists of those who use it as a social statement.
(0) Above all else, every political institution must be mistruted until it has been destroyed and rebuilt on solid ground. Do not dwell in a broken, old house waiting to cave in.

To put it simply: everything you've learned and every article of indoctrination that you've received from any source which is compliant to the modern institutions of First World nations must be cast into doubt and passed through the meatgrinder. If anything useful is left from it, then you can take it and call it 'good.'

History teaches us that all civilizations have life-cycles. The downfalls of all civilizations are marked by what we are seeing today: licentiousness, luxury and self-indulgence.

There are currently no barbarian powers that cleanse the world of our civilizations so the task falls on the own members of the civilization to undermine its existence in every way -- but not in the name of decrying and destroying the values that it was founded on, as these values have already been destroyed by the civilization itself.

Rather, the attack most come from a new breed, a new horde of marauders, and it must be directed at every manifestation of our contemporary vanity and lies.

Contemporary culture and anything that is propping it up must be sabotaged and collapsed into a heap of trash. For it was this contemporary culture that raped the dignity and truth that was once embodied by our institutions in a time when Americans believed in Liberty.

A vague sense of anarchy and chaos must be promoted, and an effort to dethrone every empowered person must be made.

Every intellectual who wants to see the World Go On Living, As Usual, or uses a modern concepts of morality and decency to measure our existence, must be scorned and mocked.

The good people of the world must start over and find their truer roots, their truer basis; perhaps they must borrow from earlier times and bring their religions and governments back to square one; but this doesn't matter right now.

All that matters is that we fracture & destroy everything that we know and see every institution driven into the ground.

The modern era saw the death of all dignified barbarians in existence so we have to make ourselves into noble savages seeking the downfall of Our Global Culture Of Lunacy.

Form yourself into your tribes and clans, and attack the exposed hides of the nearest beasts until the only thing left standing that is sacred is the Human Spirit & the Human Mind.

Pull every skeleton out of the closet and cast doubt on every apparition of the contemporary.

Be the scourge of every thoughtless modernist who thinks there is truth in what the Left or the Right says. There is no Left or Right, there is no need for us to debate the details -- the best ideas will eventually rise to the top and form themselves into new civilizations and new orders, that is what happens; a veritable competition occurs between ideas.

But now ideas can no longer compete due to the stagnation we experience in our everyday world of contented bureaucrats and common people whose minds have been enslaved to a sick society.

No catalyst can launch us into proper reformation because the only ideas we are offered, today, are from poisoned wells. The only thing we can do is wait for the catalyst the announces the downfall of modern civilization itself.

Do not be satisfied until all we are left with is our liberty and ourselves.
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Old Feb 24th, 2009, 11:22 PM       
Quote:
To put it simply: everything you've learned and every article of indoctrination that you've received from any source which is compliant to the modern institutions of First World nations must be cast into doubt and passed through the meatgrinder.
What about the idea that the feminine is bad?

You talk like a preacher. Your arguments have very little or spurious reasoning. And often outright false premises.
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Old Feb 24th, 2009, 11:28 PM       
This is one terrible alt.
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Old Feb 25th, 2009, 01:32 AM       
Hey, didn't Vince Zeb describe himself as some kind of catholic samurai or something once? I just thought of that for some reason looking at the seemingly Asian-ish motif in KKK's signature.
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Old Feb 25th, 2009, 04:05 AM       
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Originally Posted by kahljorn View Post
What about the idea that the feminine is bad?

You talk like a preacher. Your arguments have very little or spurious reasoning. And often outright false premises.
The feminine is bad to be mixed with the masculine, I guess.

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Hey, didn't Vince Zeb describe himself as some kind of catholic samurai or something once? I just thought of that for some reason looking at the seemingly Asian-ish motif in KKK's signature.
KKK? hahaha... Uhhhh....

I have lived in Asia for 3 years and some change, by the way.... In Korea......

I think Knights are better than Samurai. I think Vikings are cooler than Knights.
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Old Feb 25th, 2009, 04:07 PM       
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Originally Posted by Kulturkampf View Post
I have lived in Asia for 3 years and some change, by the way.... In Korea......
Well there you go: Kulturkampf in Korea. KKK.
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Old Feb 25th, 2009, 04:28 PM       
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The feminine is bad to be mixed with the masculine, I guess.
You guess? The feminine is not bad to be mixed with the masculine, I guess. And nobody is purely "masculine" or "feminine".
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Old Feb 25th, 2009, 05:27 PM       
Wow. Sort of like a Hyper-Libertarian Naturalism thing going on.
I like it : )

It would sort of be like that movie The Postman, but not gay.
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Old Feb 25th, 2009, 05:52 PM       
I was going to start into this but it looks like Kahl has beat me to the punch again. Yea! Less work for me!
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Old Feb 25th, 2009, 06:12 PM       
woops, typo
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Old Feb 26th, 2009, 04:54 PM       
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Originally Posted by Dr. Boogie View Post
Well there you go: Kulturkampf in Korea. KKK.
Nice.

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Originally Posted by kahljorn View Post
You guess? The feminine is not bad to be mixed with the masculine, I guess. And nobody is purely "masculine" or "feminine".
That is true enough but there are certainly people who favor one over the other.

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Originally Posted by VaporTrailx1 View Post
Wow. Sort of like a Hyper-Libertarian Naturalism thing going on.
I like it : )

It would sort of be like that movie The Postman, but not gay.
Right on, right on; totally not gay.

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woops, typo
nice.
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Old Feb 27th, 2009, 12:50 AM       
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That is true enough but there are certainly people who favor one over the other.
Why talk? You don't even take hardline stances on issues. You say things, then have no arguments to support things. You're only "GUESSING." Its all, "Maybies." That isn't a hardline stance.
According to your own ideas you are feminine and weak
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Old Feb 27th, 2009, 03:49 PM       
Hardliners are fascist dogs.
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Old Feb 27th, 2009, 04:38 PM       
Whatever they are, Kultur isn't one of them.
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Old Feb 28th, 2009, 01:14 PM       
BTW Bring back Orbitz and Blue Pepsi.
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Old Mar 1st, 2009, 10:47 PM       
Wow, you're a psychotic with an imaginary lifestyle and delusions of grander. That's really original.
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Old Mar 2nd, 2009, 04:30 PM       
Quote:
I just have a few simple things that I would like to see the good people of the world do:

(1) Reject tolerance for morality.
(2) Reject decency for dignity.
(3) Reject peace for war, "the world's only hygiene" (F. T. Marinetti)
(4) Reject control for liberty.
(5) Reject vanity for truth.
(6) Reject money for time.
(7) Reject intellectualism for simplicity in action.
Why does # 3 sound like cultural, ethnic, spirtual cleansing? Oh, but thats ok though right? After all we have #1, we have our morality. It will not tolerate anyone else's ideas of what's moral. We reject what is decient because to do so is dignified. We reject the control others force upon us to tolerate others decency because we have the liberty do so, and that makes it ok. People who are decent, and tolerant, and work to acheive peace are vain and untruthful. People should not get paid for their time. People should not enlighten themselfes with higher learning because the simpler you are the easier it is to believe in #1-7.

No thank you. I have the liberty to reject your morals, because I can see the truth behind them.

After reading to you explanations to support your thesis I can conclude that you have acheived only # 7. Number 6 is within reach though if you have time to post as often as you do.
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Old Mar 2nd, 2009, 10:03 PM       
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"I'm a man who discovered the wheel and built the Eiffel Tower out of metal and brawn. That's what kind of man I am. You're just a woman with a small brain. With a brain a third the size of us. It's science. "
Yeah, that is what I was really getting at, right?

Quote:
It's hard to say. It's all so vague. I can't tell what you would like done, specifically, to end things like the "hegemony of pop culture" and the "culture of meaninglessness and sensitivity".
I would like you to give up all of your preconceptions and criticize everything and actively criticize pop culture as a whole.

Eventually, I would like to see a wide enough base that it could be directed towards physical destruction of institutions and human lives.

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So that's how you think genders are. Fair enough to a degree. Men and women do have different hormone and chemical balances. But that only accounts for so much.

There are plenty of women who think that they should concentrate on careers. There are just as many women who prefer to be stay-at-home moms who cook and clean while their husbands go to work. There are women who take care of kids while keeping a job. I don't feel that society insists that a woman put career ahead of everything else.

I also don't see any notion that men ought to behave "like women". I fail to see how being "moderated in behavior" is something wrong. Some men simply are more emotional or at least show it (just because a person doesn't cry outright doesn't mean they don't cry).

Another thing to consider is that people don't act "feminine" or "masculine" 24/7. There're girls who are on sports teams who also dress up and go to prom with their boyfriends. There're guys who are plenty tough but also are sensitive. My brother can be aggressive, but he also cries and is emotional. My cousin is funny and sensitive, but he also takes wrestling and once hit another guy who wouldn't stop bothering him. My best friend is all for equal rights for women, but she also dresses up for dances and goes out on dates.

I guess what I'm saying is that "feminine" and "masculine" aren't switches. A person isn't one or the other. Everyone is - and always has - had a blend of the traits you consider to fall into these categories. Simply because it's become culturally acceptable to show these traits doesn't mean it's just started happening.
I agree with your points and I think perhaps we disagree mostly just on emphasis.

What I would like to hear your opinion on concerns how you feel about the modern culture emasculating males...

Or do you think this doesn't happen?


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Originally Posted by b_squared View Post
Why does # 3 sound like cultural, ethnic, spirtual cleansing? Oh, but thats ok though right? After all we have #1, we have our morality. It will not tolerate anyone else's ideas of what's moral. We reject what is decient because to do so is dignified. We reject the control others force upon us to tolerate others decency because we have the liberty do so, and that makes it ok. People who are decent, and tolerant, and work to acheive peace are vain and untruthful. People should not get paid for their time. People should not enlighten themselfes with higher learning because the simpler you are the easier it is to believe in #1-7.

No thank you. I have the liberty to reject your morals, because I can see the truth behind them.

After reading to you explanations to support your thesis I can conclude that you have acheived only # 7. Number 6 is within reach though if you have time to post as often as you do.
There would be nothing ethnic about the cleansing, but to some extent it would be a cultural cleansing that focused on replacing it with liberty.
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Old Mar 3rd, 2009, 12:27 AM       
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I agree with your points and I think perhaps we disagree mostly just on emphasis.

What I would like to hear your opinion on concerns how you feel about the modern culture emasculating males...

Or do you think this doesn't happen?
I'd say so. I do enjoy a good debate though.

Fair enough. I really don't notice "emasculation" so much as society saying "It's alright to step out of the mold". If it's one thing about feminism that does bother me, it's when it gets to the extreme of "We don't need any men at all! We must dominate!"

I realize, of course, that is at the very end of a spectrum, but my point is that if women are allowed to step out of their former society roles (June Cleaver or the pretty secretary/telephone operator) men ought to be allowed the same privillege should they desire it. That's the key. As I said before, there are women who want to build a career and women who want to be homemakers. That should be their decision. Either path has its own merits and neither is (to me) dishonorable.

It is the same with men. There are, I know, lots of men who would choose to go out and take a job and be the breadwinners. Or be athletes. Or something like that. And there are also men who would be happy staying at home and caring for their children. Or becoming art majors. It's who they are as a person.

Some women are, let's face it, just not the kind of person who ought to be a mother. Maybe it's because of emotional problems or difficulty committing to something like raising a child or just because she doesn't think she'd be ready for it. If that's the case, there's no reason why it should be expected of her. If she honestly is unable to settle to a "traditional" female life, she can, in this day and age, go for something else.

Same with men. Some men just are more suited for roles in society like being a stay-at-home dad. To me, there's nothing at all wrong with that. It's a worthwhile thing to do (it provides bonding between the child and the father).

Now out of curiosity, how do you see men as being "effeminised"? (If such a word exists... )
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Old Mar 3rd, 2009, 01:44 AM       
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Originally Posted by Kulturkampf View Post
I would like you to give up all of your preconceptions and criticize everything and actively criticize pop culture as a whole.
My preconceptions of what? Ah, screw it. Lemme give this a shot:


Pop culture sure is lousy.


Ok, I've criticized pop culture as a whole. Now what?

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Eventually, I would like to see a wide enough base that it could be directed towards physical destruction of institutions and human lives.
Which institutions? And don't say "institutions that _____". What specific existing institutions would you like to see rent asunder with physical violence? And who do you want to see physically destroyed?
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Old Mar 2nd, 2009, 12:58 AM       
lol, splitting hairs.

I like how if you attack his philosophy you are just splitting hairs. YOU HAVENT ATTACKED THE ESSSSEEENCE.

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The big idea si destroying current civilization.
Soooo original ;\
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Old Mar 2nd, 2009, 01:03 AM       
the first rule of kulturkampf is you do not talk about kulturkampf
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Old Mar 2nd, 2009, 02:51 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaQueen View Post
But the question is, what is "average"? People's roles in society have changed drastically. If you tell someone something offensive, I can guarantee you that girls and guys will get upset by it.

What is "girl" clothes? Girls wear clothes that were once considered "guy" clothes. Why can't guys do the same? It's only cloth and really the purpose of clothes is to keep us warm.

People don't necessarily act certain ways to "be special". If a guy cries, chances are he's doing it because of the way he is emotionally and not because he thinks "Oh, this'll make me unique! Look at me!"

Basically from what you've said, I've gotten that you think that girls misinterpret things, get fussy, and need to do the talking while you smile and nod. I also got that you think that guys either are not as emotional or react physically when upset.

If that's not what you meant, sorry. But that seems to me to be a pretty sweeping generalization of both genders. You mention that you have friends of both genders who break this mold and that you don't mind as it makes them unique. Fine, but then you say that it's an "issue" when teenage boys act "effeminate". Every person's unique. You said so yourself! So what's the difference?

I just hate it when people make sweeping generalizations about groups of people.
I base these conclusions off of what I envision normal behavior for men and women to be, which society seeks to change in two ways.

Look at the wikipedia article for the female brain and the male brain compared -- chemicals are different in these two which actualize different feelings and reactions to things.

Males have inherently different base than females -- it's science.

The notion that women should pursue careers over family orientated goals and be looked down upon for not doing so is absurd; the notion that men should behave like women, be more moderated in their behavior and emasculated is what I oppose.

Individuals will always be different but we are seeing generations of people enslaved to a cultural concept that is equally as ridiculous as that of the 1950s that acted as if women were incapable of performing jobs as well as mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Boogie View Post
Ah, so you don't want people discussing your philosophy. You just want people to start questioning the power structure, whatever that means.



They have people who do that for a living.



Well there you go. If you were going to one-up that nefarious cad, Tadao, you would use the girl you settled with because you had to sleep with someone.
Well, discuss the philosophy and re-interpret it, do whatever you want; I just think the heirarchy of the world today needs to be destroyed and we need to end the current hegemony of pop culture. We need to end the way that the education system indoctrinates kids into a culture of meaninglessness and sensitivity.

We need to end the government's roles within our lives.

Do you agree with any of this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn View Post
lol, splitting hairs.

I like how if you attack his philosophy you are just splitting hairs. YOU HAVENT ATTACKED THE ESSSSEEENCE.



Soooo original ;\
Hey now, Kahl, it is splitting hairs.

I do not believe in forcing roles down anyones throats but I feel that the current system is forcing roles as it stands.
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