Islam: Harmless Cab Drivers or PURE EVIL?

[Stabby]

I was just wondering what some of the opinons regarding the Islam religion were around here. Remeber, I'm not spouting "my country right or wrong" or any other patriotic bumper sticker bullshit I just want to express some opinions and hear others.

Some friends and I were discussing it at a bar the other night. I don't think it is EVIL but I have no respect for it. (I have no repsect for any religion either though.) But it seems after 9/11 we are supposed to be extra sensitive to Muslims. We say that the terrorists are just Muslim extremists and that most in the Muslim world don't support them. Well all I know is the most popular name for a kid in Pakistan after 9/11 was Osama. And the terrosists don't seem to be a fringe minority.

At least Christianity went through a renaissance, but it seems the Muslim world is still in the dark ages. They still stone women to death for stupid things like having sex outside of marriage. Why should I have to respect that and pretend that it's really 'a very peaceful religion'? All I know is I don't have much respect for ignorance, especially when it can get me killed.

It's very PC to try to be open minded about the Islamic faith, and there's nothing more politically correct than pretending religion is always a good thing. But underneath the 'War on Terror' it seems that we are also fighting a War on Islam.

Thoughts?

[ItalianStereotype]

Islam has always been a violent religion, more so than the others in my opinion. however, they too had their own "renaissance" of sorts; at one point, the Islamic world was far beyond the understanding of Christian Europe

[Big Papa Goat]

If you compare the chaos and barbarity of soceities in third world Muslim nations I'm pretty sure it will be better than the situations in West African nations. True there aren't any terrorists from impovershed African soceities yet, but at least in Muslim fundamentalist states there is some order, as opposed to the anarchy that has set into the rest of the third world.

[El Blanco]

You know what religion dominates most of Africa, right?

Oh, and Islam never had a Rennaisance (my degree is in history and I still can't spell it). That is exactly why they are stuck in the 16th Century, or at least, one of the major reasons. They started really well, but go complacent from lack of competition (same with the chinese Empires).

Because of the Rennaissance in Europe, secularism grew, as did nationalism. The states competed amongst each other and were forced to make innovations. When they turned these innovations on the Arab world (the South Pacific muslims were a little more open to change), it wasn't even a contest.

[Phil the anorak]

What I would say is that devotees of Islam are probably more serious about their religion than christians. We have a large islamic population in the UK and I'll bet there is more church attendance in islamic, sikh and hindu temples per head of population than anyone professing to be christian here.

In the countries where Islam is the predominant religion this probably means that we don't really understand why this is as we by and large don't live by the good book and as a result distrust anyone that does as some kind of real or potential religious maniac.

There is of course those that use Islam as a means of gaining power and not for the good of allah, just themselves.

[Jeanette X]

I do not think that Islam is any more inherently violent than Christianity. And plenty of people (at least on the internet, from what I have seen) have certainly NOT tiptoed around the issue of Islam. I have often found myself debating with Christians about whether or not Islam is about terrorism.
As for civilization, bear in mind that Baghdad was a center of culture, science, and commerce back when most of Europe was picking berries and shitting in the woods. The reasons that the Muslim world did not seem to progress the way Europe did is probably because of factors unrelated to the religion itself.
Women are often oppressed in Islam not because of Islam itself, but because of the Arab culture that predates it and got blended into the religion.
BTW, Islam is referred to as being a religion of peace because the word "Islam" translates to mean "Peace through submission to Allah."

[Big Papa Goat]

Islam, along with other theistic religions have less than a marginal influence in the most chaotic regions of Africa, those being Sub Saharan and Western Africa. And what did you mean by the innovations of nationalism not even being contested by the Arab world?

[ItalianStereotype]

Originally Posted by El Blanco

Oh, and Islam never had a Rennaisance (my degree is in history and I still can't spell it).

they preserved and re-interpreted Hellenistic culture as well as expanded on science, astronomy, math, algebra, law, history, agriculture, architecture, and music. granted, it wasn't on the same level as the Europeans, but to say that they never had their own renaissance is inaccurate.

Originally Posted by El Blanco

Because of the Rennaissance in Europe, secularism grew, as did nationalism. The states competed amongst each other and were forced to make innovations. When they turned these innovations on the Arab world (the South Pacific muslims were a little more open to change), it wasn't even a contest.

I don't buy into this. if it were true, how would you explain the Timurids, Tunis, Cyrenaica, the Mamlukes, Adeni, Omani, or the Koyunlan Caliphates?

[Abcdxxxx]

Someone mentioned Islamic followers being more devout. I've never heard of a non-devout follower of Islam the way one can casually dabble in some other religions. I'm sure it goes on, but it's so against the teachings that it wouldn't be as acceptable. It's not a great way to take a religion popularity poll.

Jeanette "Women are often oppressed in Islam not because of Islam itself, but because of the Arab culture that predates it and got blended into the religion. "

Say What?????? Arab culture is currently dominated by Islamic morals. Oppression towards women isn't a culturally Arabic trait in nature. The Koran supports the second class treatment of Women, as do some other religious scriptures depending on how you interpret them. Unfortunately, there is not much room within Islam for an acceptable alternative understanding of the text. Women most certainly ARE oppresed by Arab culture at the hands of Islamic Morals. The less Islamic the nation, the lessed oppressed the women.

[ScruU2wice]

Say What?????? Arab culture is currently dominated by Islamic morals. Oppression towards women isn't a culturally Arabic trait in nature. The Koran supports the second class treatment of Women, as do some other religious scriptures depending on how you interpret them. Unfortunately, there is not much room within Islam for an acceptable alternative understanding of the text. Women most certainly ARE oppresed by Arab culture at the hands of Islamic Morals. The less Islamic the nation, the lessed oppressed the women.

HAVE YOU READ THE KORAN!??! this thread fucking sickens me, theres i woman somewhere in trailer park getting beaten by her husband. Im going to pin that on christianity... I think your evil for trying to even imply that islam as a religon is evil. There were kids named osama before 9/11, too! First of all id love to know how many of you guys are muslim or arabic, id also love to know when i few thousand people of a few billion repersented a whole religon/ culture? Your a waste of human resources if you think muslims are just cab drivers. I have to admit i am really posting out of anger but ive heard soooooooooooooo much shit about the religon i follow after a few mad men attacked new york, and said it was in the name of 'islam'. i am personally offended by what you wrote Stabby

[El Blanco]

they preserved and re-interpreted Hellenistic culture as well as expanded on science, astronomy, math, algebra, law, history, agriculture, architecture, and music. granted, it wasn't on the same level as the Europeans, but to say that they never had their own renaissance is inaccurate.

They haven't had the cultural rebirth, which is exactly what a renaissance is. They haven't had that.

I don't buy into this. if it were true, how would you explain the Timurids, Tunis, Cyrenaica, the Mamlukes, Adeni, Omani, or the Koyunlan Caliphates?

All third string quarterbacks when compared to the Ottoman Empire. they were the undisputed champs of the ME.

Prior to the Reformation, most Europeans called themselves Christians. Some nobles used terms like Saxxon and Norman, but most official acts were done as Christians. Afterwards, you see Englishman, Spaniard, Surrender Monkey....I mean French. That happened because power was taken from Rome. It was no longer the only place that ruled.

[Sethomas]

Under all those veils and stuff, 'slim chicks are hot. Ergo, they can't be all bad.

[Jeanette X]

The Koran supports the second class treatment of Women, as do some other religious scriptures depending on how you interpret them. Unfortunately, there is not much room within Islam for an acceptable alternative understanding of the text.

And the specific Koran verses are...?

BTW, need I mention that the Bible "suffer no woman to teach" rather clearly and unambigously?

[ItalianStereotype]

Originally Posted by El Blanco

They haven't had the cultural rebirth, which is exactly what a renaissance is. They haven't had that.

I would say that the Turks in 1453 were a hell of a lot different than the Turks under Suleyman.

Originally Posted by El Blanco

All third string quarterbacks when compared to the Ottoman Empire. they were the undisputed champs of the ME.

yes, thank you, I know but it was not always so.

the point that I was trying to make was that these were all powerful Muslim nations (not all at the same time) that (more or less) prospered without Christian intervention. the Timurids and the Mamlukes fell before the European Renaissance even reached its zenith, but they were richly cultured, militarily strong countries. basically what I'm saying is this, the Christian Renaissance didn't advance Muslim culture the way that you are thinking.

Originally Posted by El Blanco

Prior to the Reformation, most Europeans called themselves Christians. Some nobles used terms like Saxxon and Norman, but most official acts were done as Christians. Afterwards, you see Englishman, Spaniard, Surrender Monkey....I mean French. That happened because power was taken from Rome. It was no longer the only place that ruled.

well, I guess it was mostly hot Christian on Christian action before the Reformation because, apart from the Crusades, all their attention was focused on Europe. things weren't as simple as "Christian" instead of "Englishman" or "Castillian."

[The_Rorschach]

I'm sure you don't care, but just to clear the waters a bit. . .

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God" (I Cor 11:3). See God is establishing a heirarchy here, a chain of command so to speak, (by the way, John 3:16, the word World is translated badly, in the greek it is signifying of a world order, a chain of command, and what God is saying is that He loved the world He created, and sacrificed His Son in order to re-establish that order, but I disgress). That order, to put things simply, is God, Christ, man, woman, child. Submission, in this sense, is not to be taken as equalitive to inferiority, if it was, Christ and the Holy Spirit would be inferior to God the Father.

What Paul, or Saul if you prefer, is trying to assert is that women are not to "usurp authority over the man." Let it be understood that women are not forbidden the position of teaching. She is commanded to teach children and other women (Titus 1:3-5; I Tim. 5:14). Arguably, albeit, the foremost judge the Israelites ever had was Ruth, and she was a woman. This passage by Paul, or Saul, is meant to be taken as the default, with the understanding implied that God would raise those whom He will, regardless of gender, or race for that matter, though I do believe creed is somewhat involved.

You can take the verse to be mysogenistic by removing the context, but it really isn't :/

[ScruU2wice]

in Islam the order is God over everything. We believe its blasphemy to consider Jesus as the son of God or associate any human as son or daughter or any relation to God. I dont have any quotes to back all that stuff up but it's what I read in sunday school as a kid

[Abcdxxxx]

Scru - I actually do have some Arabic blood in me. I'm not sure you understood this thread... though I agree the cab driver reference lacked some finesse.


[quote="Jeanette X"]

And the specific Koran verses are...?

BTW, need I mention that the Bible "suffer no woman to teach" rather clearly and unambigously?

Okay Jeanette - You really believe being a misgonyst is an Arabic trait? Holy shit, do you realize how much more offensive that is then just saying "Islam oppresses women" ? You really don't do you.

BTW, I already said most every religions scriptures have misogynistic sections. Sadly the Muslim religion refuses to modernize their intepretation of these sections the way other religion have. I said that already. You comprehended it I hope?

[Abcdxxxx]

Anyone wanna check the translation on these quotes to make sure they're legit representations? Otherwise, there's hundreds more like 'em.

An-Nisa 4: 34 "As to those women On whose part ye fear disloyalty andÂ*ill -conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share beds, (andÂ*Last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek notÂ*against them means (of annoyance): For God is Most High, Great (aboveÂ*you all)"Â*

Al - Baqara 2:Â* 222 "They questioned thee (O Mohammad) concerning menstruation, Say it is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not unto themÂ* till they are cleansed."

Al - Baqara 2: 228 "Men, your wives are your tillage. Go into your tillage any way you want."Â*


33: 32-33 "O ye wives of the prophet! Ye are not like any other women.Â*If ye keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft of speech lest he inÂ*whose heart is a disease aspire to you, but utter customary speech AndÂ*stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment ofÂ*the time of ignorance. Be regular in prayer, & pay the poor due, 7Â*obey Allah & His messengerÂ*

[ScruU2wice]

The Koran supports the second class treatment of Women

I dont care what type of blood you have in you, you can't tell me that was a justified... The koran in no way justifies the second hand treatment of any people. It says that women should be obedient to their husbands and Husbands should be respectful of their wives.

I told you i did write my first post in a furios rage and didnt read all the posts. You guys also forget that the islamic faith isn't as old as the the other religons you compare it to. But you can't tell me that christianity never perscuted women for adultry, even in times up to the colonization of america.

I have to admit i wouldn't be this passionate hadn't i been a muslim but still i think alot of the stuff in this thread i don't like and woulda been against no matter what religon...

[ScruU2wice]

Al - Baqara 2: 222 "They questioned thee (O Mohammad) concerning menstruation, Say it is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not unto them till they are cleansed."

i have read this passage and it refers to the practice of the five daily prayers and the recitation of the koran, which is not suppose to be done by women during that time

but what really sickens me about this thred is the title. "PURE EVIL?" WTF is that suppose to be a joke? are the few billion people who follow this religon minions of satan? and the fact that we shudn't care about the muslim religon or bother to be sensitive about it because the people in it are violent... How much exactly did you drink stabby?

[Drew Katsikas]

Fuck all of you. Stop trying to interpert religous texts. It's worthless. You can prove anything with any fucking Bible, and disprove it with a different passage. Through mistranslations, corrupt popes/whatever muslim leaders are called, and lost texts and whatnot, scripts are extremley ambiguous. You can just as easily prove that the Bible supports war as you can say it doesn't condone it. It's ridiculous, and frankly, you all sound like idiots bickering over it.

[The_Rorschach]

How ironic. . .

You've made a theory, that anything can be proven or disproven with the Bible. I'd like to take you up on. Why not help Jeanette in her stance on this issue, she could use it from one as educated and eloquent as yourself.

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by ScruU2wice

in Islam the order is God over everything. We believe its blasphemy to consider Jesus as the son of God or associate any human as son or daughter or any relation to God. I dont have any quotes to back all that stuff up but it's what I read in sunday school as a kid

I've read that it was at the council "Council Of Nicea" that Jesus was determined to be "the Son of God", i.e. deified, and that all contrasting gospels that shown him in a more human light were edited out to support Constantine's agenda. Of course, I've had people on the board who've apposed me on this point.

[Drew Katsikas]

I'm not so well versed in The Koran that I can take sides in this argument. But here's an example.

With Onan, God orders him to impregnate his dead brother's wife, as part of Jewish law. Onan doesn't dig this, so he busts all over the floor instead, and gets struck down by the big man, becuase he doesn't follow His law.
Later, Jesus says this law was bad. That God only allowed stuff like that and divorce because the Jews were sinful people and he had to make them happy.

Or, in Paul's letters, he clearly states that women are inferior to men multiple times. If you don't believe me, just skim through his letters. However, Christians virtually ignore these passages now, or just say that he didn't really mean it, or the Bible should be interperted as a whole, and don't worry about that passage.

[Abcdxxxx]

Okay wait. Holding up equally fucked up text from another religion doesn't do anything to disprove the existance of these words in the Koran. Start another thread for bible battles.

The Koran can only fairly be singled out because the majority of it's followers still uphold it's antiquated and harmful laws towards women in a way that's unparralelled by other religions - no matter what the Christian bible says or whatever... the fact is, women have it good under a Judeo-Christian socierty in comparison. If Judeo-Christian countries were rampant with female slavery, etc. and devout institutionalized religion, then yeah I'd blame a Judeo-Christian bible too. If it's not the Koran, then what's your theory? All the sand and hot climates makes men do abusive things towards women? What does the Koran say to stop such treatment? There are ONLY four or five tracts in the Koran TOTAL that speak to equality and hundreds that could be misconstrued as encouragement to abuse women.