The origins of the Great War of 2007

[Abcdxxxx]

Oh, jeez, and back to the "hey The Bible is violent too" argument.
Typical tourettes from someone who pretends we don't know who Al Qaeda is.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying here. When it comes to issues of self rightessnous, and the acceptance of other religions there is little ambigouty. Ask a Muslim. It's like asking a Jew if they believe in Jesus...they might give you a diplomatic answer, but Jesus means nothing to a religious Jew.

I've long argued that the Koran is mainly prose, so certainly it's a matter of interpretation. So now, how is it being interpretated by the majority of Muslims, Ziggy ? Are Wahhabist just fringe? One has to look at world politics to find out. One has to ask American Muslims, who are neither fundamentalists, nor extremists (in most cases) how they feel about it. The basics tenants of being a Muslim are not up for debate. Are they peacefull ? Yes....but in the next breath they will explain, and rationalize the reasons for the actions of those you dub as extreme. They will tell you exactly where in the Koran these ideas come from.... and there is a long history of it. This is the Islamic paradox.

[ziggytrix]

Goat, I said, "I just noticed Kuturjerk said he wanted to war against Islamic fundmentalism, NOT Islamic extremism. Did you really mean that?"

To which Kulture said he meant extremism, and things could have gotten back on track there, but then ABCD wanted to argue that there is no difference between fundamentalism and extremism in Islam.

We've pretty much been saying "is so" "is not" "is so" "is not" since that point.


So now, let us continue in that vein:

"So now, how is [the Koran] being interpretated by the majority of Muslims, Ziggy ?"

To which I say, however their religious leaders tell them to interpret it, because people love the herd mentality.

"I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying here. When it comes to issues of self rightessnous, and the acceptance of other religions there is little ambigouty. Ask a Muslim. It's like asking a Jew if they believe in Jesus...they might give you a diplomatic answer, but Jesus means nothing to a religious Jew."

You're absolutely right. I have no idea what the point of that paragraph was.


"Are they peacefull ? Yes....but in the next breath they will explain, and rationalize the reasons for the actions of those you dub as extreme."

Attempting to understand the conditions that create extremists and the motives behind their behavior is not an apology.

I'm not saying we should excuse their actions either. But simplifying it to "well, all them damn ragheads is just naturally violent, we gotta kill em off" doesn't solve the issue either. Not that you are saying that, but then I'm a little unclear on your exact point ABC. You've danced around it quite a bit.

Do you have a solution for the Muslim problem?

[Abcdxxxx]

That's a cop out Ziggy...both to what I've presented you with,and what Big Goat is questioning.

For one thing, my argument is that the things you say you oppose about Islam are not extremist, fringe interpretations. That's why some of the most law abiding peace loving Muslims still recognize Bin Laden's scholarly understanding of the Koran.

That you just asked me if i had a solution for the Muslim PROBLEM sounds like you're approaching this conversation with some old fashioned White Liberal Guilt. Muslims aren't a problem. This isn't a Holy war disbute. We live in modern times, with heavy documentation around things we deem historical. The first step to the Mid-east conflict is calling a spade a spade. You've never been able to do that for some reason, Ziggy.

[ziggytrix]

What's a cop-out about it? How is it that Muslims aren't a problem, if violent extremists are accurately and honestly interpreting Muslim scripture?

These seem to be two contradictory stances. Either you believe violence and anti-Westernism are integral to Islam or you believe that such is a corruption of Islam. Explain to me this doublethink that allows me to accept both premises at the same time, so that I can understand and quit arguing with you already!

But if you can't do that, feel free to elaborate on the "spade" thing, as I have no idea what you're getting at. And if you have the time, tell me more about my "White Liberal Guilt." That sounds neat, too.

[Abcdxxxx]

The doublethink IS Islam.... that's what I'm trying to explain to you. There are even theories that the Koran was written by two different Mohhameds.

I'm at the point where the problem isn't merely Islamic fanatics, but people like you who refuse to attribute holy war fever with mainstream Islam, simply because you can't wrap your head around the equation I detailed above. Meanwhile, when you argue that all Muslims are the problem, without qualifying it by saying Extremists, or Fundamentalists specifically are the problem, you're agreeing with my orginal point...which is to say that if your main issue with Islam is the notion of self righteousness, and the conversion or punishment of non-believers...there is no difference. I've given you 3 links to devout Muslims who explain to you many of the things I'm saying - I have explained that interpretation, and action is the culprit, not any Religion itself. There's no need to go in circles.

[Abcdxxxx]

If you want to truly understand what's going in the Mid-East today, you need to google:

Haj Amin El Husseini
The Farhud

Short of Arafat, Amin El Husseini (there are multiple spellings) is the most important figure of the region, and gave birth to the myth of Pan-Arabism. Iranians for example, aren't technically even Arabs. Nor are Egyptians. Nor are... you get the idea.

Here are some links, but I suggest you do the searches on your own rather then just take mine.

http://www.farhud.org/farhud.html
http://www.mideastweb.org/Iraqaxiscoup.htm
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_man...rand_mufti.php
http://www.dangoor.com/75002.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...katz082302.asp

[Kulturkampf]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

But look how you're applying your righteousness. "You know, muslims are obviously wrong because they don't share my philosophy". They are just going by what has been bred into their culture for MANY MANY years-- just like you are when you accuse them of wrong. Unlike us, they haven't had the 300 years or whatever of democratic development under the guise of equality. So what, they are a little 'behind'. Quit judging them because our culture is more evolved. I wonder if there's a word for that kind of discrimination ;(

It's called:

"Not being an overly-sensitive, multicultural liberal."

You make it out as if it is excusable that they stone women and force them to wear birkahs.

If Pres. Bush made us do that, you would go insane; but if Sheikh Mullah Omar does it, it is excusable, even in its' modern context, simply because they haven't evolved yet and apparently should make no attempt to catch up.

[kahljorn]

I never said it was Okay, if you'd learn to read you'd notice I said... "I'm not saying I believe it's right or anything".

All I was attempting to point out is that most of this is an obvious moral issue, in which western culture believes they are morally superior to pretty much every other nation that doesn't follow their morals to the 'T'. The sad thing with that is most of the morals of western culture are a facade. However, I don't necessarily disagree that the morals and values apparant in some of these cultures seem horrible and inhumane. Rather, all I'm trying to discuss is proliferation of moral values within these states. Essentially, how would you actually solve the problem?
You say it's in the koran but who cares. There's plenty of shit in the bible that's exactly the same. Just because they are willing to accept that it's there doesn't mean they're all going to go kill people, just like every christian/jew isn't going to kill his wife if she's not a virgin.
You have conversations about this but what do you think it's going to do..? Considering the fact that this is a moral issue I asked you questions about that directly, but you tried to push it off as unrelated. Well, thanks for sharing your super-knowledge of islam. Maybe after we're done with that we could start discussing the real issue?

[Ant10708]

If anyone is still unclear, the Bible has violent text in it too since apparently its extremely important to keep mentioning this.

[Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Ant10708

If anyone is still unclear, the Bible has violent text in it too since apparently its extremely important to keep mentioning this.

Yeah, that's what these hippies tell themselves whenever they hear about women being stoned to death for being raped, or Christian schoolgirls being beheaded, it makes them feel better about it.

[Ant10708]

Saudi Arabia has agreed to allow women to attend a football match against Sweden, reversing an earlier decision.
On Monday, Saudi authorities had told the Swedish Football Association that a change of stadium meant women could not watch the match in the capital, Riyadh.

But after intervention by Swedish diplomats on Tuesday, the Saudi authorities backed down.

The ban on women spectators had caused upset in Sweden, one of the world's leading nations on gender equality.


How dare those Swedes think their culture is better than the culture of Saudia Arabia! Fucking swedish bigots.


I do find it odd that the people who despise the anti-gay members of the board who have problems with homosexuality and are not in favor of equal marriage and adoption rights are so keen to defend radical Islam when they(the radical members of Islam) obviously have more prejudices than just disliking gays. I'm pretty sure radical Islamics hate gays alot more than people like Pharaoh.


Seriously, how did Arafat win the Nobel Peace Prize?

[kahljorn]

"Saudi Arabia has agreed to allow women to attend a football match against Sweden, reversing an earlier decision. "

This is the type of culture proliferation I'm talking about. It seems worthless, like it wont help anything, but it at least causes people to look at things in a different way.


"If anyone is still unclear, the Bible has violent text in it too since apparently its extremely important to keep mentioning this. "

"But, until their ideology and way of life is entirely defeated, they remain a threat; so let's take them out. "
That's why I said stuff about the bible, because some people seem to think every islamist is a serial murderer just because their core religious text supports it. That's okay though right, we can somehow ignore that and focus on people bringing up the bible. That will make us look smart. Don't forget, the same people also mentioned that even the "Fine upstanding muslims" in western culture are blights on society and should also be wiped off the map.
Good job confronting that aspect of this conversation. I seriously don't know why you insert your opinion into any thread, ant, your opinion seems to be the most worthless one available.

[ziggytrix]

*sigh* Yes, I'm defending radical Islam. That's EXACTLY what I've been saying this whole time.

Why the fuck do I even bother?

FUCKIN POST A QUOTE WHERE I SAID A VIOLENT EXTREMIST DOESN'T DESERVE TO DIE, YOU FUNCTIONALLY LITERATE CHEERLEADER.

[Ant10708]

You people are doing fine with the others so theres no need for me to chime in. I just read that the bible was violent like 5 times in this thread as if this is new information.

I confronted the fact that you seem to excuse the behavior of people in the Middle East just because our culture is different and we feel superior. Is it possible that a culture that does not treat woman as second class citizens is better than one that does? I'm sure you agree our culture in America is far superior to what is was when woman didn't have equal rights.


I still don't understand my opinion being the most worthless. Oh I mocked something you said that was already said multiple times in this thread. That's why.

[ziggytrix]

Ant, quote where someone said atrocities committed Middle Eastern folks are OK cuz they're just backwards sandhicks.

Otherwise quit reading shit into this "debate" that isn't there.

[Ant10708]

"But look how you're applying your righteousness. "You know, muslims are obviously wrong because they don't share my philosophy". They are just going by what has been bred into their culture for MANY MANY years-- just like you are when you accuse them of wrong. Unlike us, they haven't had the 300 years or whatever of democratic development under the guise of equality. So what, they are a little 'behind'. Quit judging them because our culture is more evolved. I wonder if there's a word for that kind of discrimination ;( " -kahl

He didn't say they were 'okay' but it seems like he was saying its not their fault and thus excusing or defending radical(including extremists) Islam and its pratices. You are so not violently happy Ziggy. Relax. I wasn't reading shit that wasn't there but I would consider it shit.

[kahljorn]

"I'm sure you agree our culture in America is far superior to what is was when woman didn't have equal rights."

Yea, that's why I said our culture was more evolved(Get it now, fuckface?). I didn't excuse their habits or anything, if you'd learn to read with something other than your asshole you might figure that out. Moreover, i was trying to discuss this from relevant angles, rather than just ranting on and on about what they do and how they do it. Yes, we know they do things. That's why there's stories about it and controversy. I don't see how reliterating the same thing over and over fixes anything(THEIR RELIGION HAS BAD THINGS IN IT).

"I still don't understand my opinion being the most worthless."

Your idea of chiming into a conversation about gay people is, "They really aren't prejudiced that bad what about people not being allowed to smoke pot that sucks man i smoke pot and it's just not fair."
Seems pretty fucking worthless to me... And little did you know your information was flawed in the first place.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

I don't see how reliterating the same thing over and over fixes anything(THEIR RELIGION HAS BAD THINGS IN IT).

Weird. Then why did you find it worth your while to talk about Christians and Jews at all? Hell, why do YOU keep bringing the conversation back to this base level? You already admitted you've only met one Muslim in your entire life.

So yeah, thanks for your contribution, but if you other angles are "Maybe murder's cool, ever think about that?" then spare us.

.... And learn what Anthropology actually means while you're at it, dunce.

[kahljorn]

" Then why did you find it worth your while to talk about Christians and Jews at all?"

You seriously couldn't figure it out despite what I said? Could I have been making fun of you?

"And learn what Anthropology actually means while you're at it"

I don't know why you guys think you know something I don't, but I find it hilarious. I'm guessing you're equating anthropology to simply being digging for fossils or living among foreign tribes. There's even a branch of anthropology called, "Psychological anthropology". guess what that is.

Anthropology is the study of HUMANS and their development. Some people call it the, "Science of humans". In fact the word anthropology comes from meant HUMAN. Here, why don't you read about it on wikipedia so you can know what it is, and show me exactly how I don't know what I'm talking about. Consider this a challenge since you're such a smart guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropology

Let me give you a few hints or something.

Could it be...:

A) It is holistic in two senses: it is concerned with all humans at all times, and with all dimensions of humanity.

B) A primary trait that traditionally distinguished anthropology from other humanistic disciplines is an emphasis on cross-cultural comparisons. This distinction has, however, become increasingly the subject of controversy and debate, with anthropological methods now being commonly applied in single society/group studies.

C) cultural anthropology, (called social anthropology in the United Kingdom and now often known as socio-cultural anthropology). Areas studied by cultural anthropologists include social networks, diffusion, social behavior, kinship patterns, law, politics, ideology, religion, beliefs, patterns in production and consumption, exchange, socialization, gender, and other expressions of culture, with strong emphasis on the importance of fieldwork or participant-observation (i.e living among the social group being studied for an extended period of time);

D) More recently, some anthropology programs began dividing the field into two, one emphasizing the humanities and critical theory, the other emphasizing the natural sciences and empirical observation.

Regardless of how you look at it, anthropology has alot to do with the study of CULTURE and SOCIETY and the way it DEVELOPS. If you deny that it shows how fucking stupid you are, and it will bring me great pleasure. But go ahead. Do it. Give it to me. Come on, give it to me.
I seriously want to hear your smart guy talk about what anthropology really is, you blaring jackass.

[Abcdxxxx]

I'll help you out, because I feel bad for you Kahl.... I mean not that I know anything about the Middle East that you don't or anything but...

Westerners want to practice the equivalent of social anthropomorphagy. They want to look for reasons they themselves would accept to do some act. It simply no more registers to them to be shahids anymore than they would practice Japanese foot binding. So they look for plausible reasons they would understand.

Arab, and some Muslim societies says that everything that Islam has conquered is Dars Al Islam, or the House of Islam, and that it forever belongs to the followers of the prophet, and that Islamic Law shall be the only law known, and that anyone not one of the people of the book (I.E why do you think that the diverse religions of the Sassanid Empire are all but three dead today?) shall live there, and that Jews and Christians are to be treated as Dhimmis (A class roughly similar to Jim Crow Era African Americans, or Aparthied Era Africans in SA).

[kahljorn]

You still didn't tell me exactly what anthropology is and how I used it wrong, but i appreciate the fact that you actually talked about something i could read and enjoy despite the horrible typos and incoherency. Thanks, please continue.

You probably know plenty more about the middle east than I do. and I'm pretty sure you've shown it, I just know more about everything else.

P.s. the christian bible says the same thing.

"They want to look for reasons they themselves would accept to do some act."

I'm not interested in that at all, I'm for the advancement of civilization and for the understanding of it's functions(To put it short and sweet). I'm sort of in a rush, maybe I'll post later.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

P.s. the christian bible says the same thing.

Holyshit, Rain Man.

Since you're for the "advancement of civiliization and for the understanding of it's functions" can we count on more intelligetly formed arguments rationalizing the cultural purity of stonings ??

Not.

Bright.

[kahljorn]

Feminization of alot of outlets is culturally considered a weakness in many aspects. Look at america: I'm sure you can find a few weaknesses even economically, militaristically, socially. psychologically and even in certain evolution senses. Stoning women keeps those weaknesses from getting out of control.
Most of that's an excuse to keep treating people like shit, though. Besides all that the inbreeding of power of sorts keeps culture stagnant and puts them in a slow developmental pace. Tit for tat. Overall you'd find advancement of culture to be more beneficial to society than stagnation.
However, despite all that the old philosophies still led to the philosophies of today-- so maybe in that sense it was correct. Freemasonry indeed.

Want to share with us some more information about how the koran says it's okay to kill non-believers?

P.S. the christian bible says the same thing.

[Abcdxxxx]

Naw, go school yourself.

I'm not going to respond to your crazy "feminization" talk either.
Let us know when you have some new thoughts which are relevant to bring to the table.

[Kulturkampf]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

I never said it was Okay, if you'd learn to read you'd notice I said... "I'm not saying I believe it's right or anything".

All I was attempting to point out is that most of this is an obvious moral issue, in which western culture believes they are morally superior to pretty much every other nation that doesn't follow their morals to the 'T'. The sad thing with that is most of the morals of western culture are a facade. However, I don't necessarily disagree that the morals and values apparant in some of these cultures seem horrible and inhumane. Rather, all I'm trying to discuss is proliferation of moral values within these states. Essentially, how would you actually solve the problem?

Forced liberalization and democratization of these nations, and if they drag their feet we give them incentives; if they refuse to cooperate, we destroy them and put their leads on trials, kill their culture and build schools there -- force them to learn how to read and be educated.

You say it's in the koran but who cares. There's plenty of shit in the bible that's exactly the same.

But it is not the word of Christ.

Just because they are willing to accept that it's there doesn't mean they're all going to go kill people, just like every christian/jew isn't going to kill his wife if she's not a virgin.
You have conversations about this but what do you think it's going to do..? Considering the fact that this is a moral issue I asked you questions about that directly, but you tried to push it off as unrelated. Well, thanks for sharing your super-knowledge of islam. Maybe after we're done with that we could start discussing the real issue?

What is the real issue?

They attack us in the form of terrorism. We're angry, and they're backwards barbarians so we are kicking their asses inside out.

Sounds like a good day's work.