"KEVIN HATES JEWS"

[KevinTheOmnivore]

We should just cut to the chase here. This is the thread that Abcdxxxx really wanted to start, so I just figured I'd help him/her out and take away the facade about Zionism (because "Zionism" for him/her is code for anti-semite, clearly).

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Zionism and Herzl are not exclusive, yet you and others constantly use the term as some sort of code, or to suggest a mindset.

Whenever I speak of Zionism as a nationalistic ideology, I ALWAYS make a point to capitalize the word and distinguish it as its own force (like "democrat" and "Democrat," get it Abc????). I am referring to political Zionism.

You are right, it isn't exclusive to Herzl. It was also heavily influenced by people like Moses Hess, who saw Zionism as an opportunity to "Westernize" the "backward" middle east. Nowadays that's called cultural imperialism, right?

It IS nationalism, but not in this dark conspiratory manner that you suggest. If you've ever talked about Zionists as a single united body you are speaking with bigotry.

Of course there have been varying perspectives on Zionism as a political ideology, much like others, as I'm sure you well know. As for the "conspiracy," well, it's a bit naive and revisionist to insinuate that there were no broad, long term intentions by folks such as Herzl (who had taken a leadership role of the political movement around the time of the Dreyfus Affair, despite your dismissive feelings on him). Herzl didn't agree with the prevailing thought in "Palestine" that piece-meal immigration would be effective. He DID believe in mass immigration, he DID believe in removing arabs from their land (with full compensation, of course). The timing in Europe and the middle east was right for this kind of a movement.

If you ever have talked of Zionists being responsible for specific events, as a united body, or idealogy, then you are misinformed and speaking with a bigoted tongue.

This is absurd. Is making the logical assumption that pan-Arabism involves muslims, or that pan-Africanism involves Africans a "bigoted" notion?

Herzl was one voice of many key to the creation of the Zionist movement...a movement designed to provide Jews with a secular homeland. The Zionist movement is incredibly diverse in comparison to something like the African Nationalist movement which rarely gets blamed for instigating tensions in a region full of turmoil in it's own right. It gets singled out in a way that other naionalist movements, or religious homelands never do.

Of course, as I've already stated, it has its dynamics and its various interpretations. But the movement, as spearheaded by Herzl, is the precedent for the modern state of Israel. People disagreed on how to deal with Arabs, much like they do today. But that doesn't mean the overall goal of a Jewish homeland loses focus as the crux of the ideology.

That's wrong. When you interject Zionism out of topic, it's code. You're speaking of Jews. Yo're shifting responsibility on an ethnic group.

It's a movement based the creation of a jewish state. Of COURSE you're speaking of Jews. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm merely stating a reality. A Zionist doesn't need to be Jewish. A jew doesn't need to be a Zionist. I agree, they are distinct.

The same people who point fingers whenever someone is being ethnocentric are often the first ones out with scathing remarks about Zionism with this notion that there is a "secret history" to expose. A dark side. A difference between Zionism and zionism. You're misinformed, and unapologetic... and it makes everything else you say about the region just that much more scary, especially when you turn and call others racist.

There IS a difference, and there's nothing racist about assuming that. I'm not arguing whether or not "Zionism" is bad and "zionism" is good. I'm plainly saying that there IS an ideological, psychological, and political difference. My point has never been that Zionism is rotten, rather, that it has resulted in the circumstances today. Whether that's good or bad is up to personal interpretation.

So I challenge anyone on this board to defend their stance on Zionism. I'm not going to go back into the archives to search and quote every instance of debate involving the term, but if you've said some borderline shit, then chances are you already know who you are... let's hope you're not too lazy this time to stand up for your stance.

I don't think it matters whether or not anybody "defends" themselves. You will call anybody a bigot who disagrees with you even in the slightest. You will criticize with a condescending tone the "wrong books" we've read, and the "wrong classes" we've taken. If only we could all be truly informed and enlightened as you are, because clearly, your simplistic, black/white perspective on matters MUST be right.

[mburbank]

Oh, what, so now I'm supposed to wear a yellow star whenever I post in the same thread as you?!

YOU BASTARD!!!

[FS]

Why does Max get to wear a yellow star? I WANT A YELLOW STAR!

[Zero Signal]

How about this?

[Abcdxxxx]

There were/are Marxist Zionists, Capatilist Zionists, Communist Zionists, Socialist Zionists, Imperialist Zionists, Passivist Zionists, Religious Zionists, Non-Religious Zionists, Jewish Zionist, Non- Jewish Zionists, Arabic Zionists, Cannanite Zionists, World Zionists, American Zionists, Christian Zionists, Muslim Zionists, and so on and so on.
The way I read and hear the word "Zionism" used rarely aknowledges that.


" "Zionism" for him/her is code for anti-semite, clearly."

Yes, seething criticism of such a lose term as Zionism is often disguised antisemetism. Then again it's hard to disguise your hatred when you're quoted as saying "Zionism is shit" as you have.


"Whenever I speak of Zionism as a nationalistic ideology, I ALWAYS make a point to capitalize the word and distinguish it as its own force (like "democrat" and "Democrat," get it Abc????). I am referring to political Zionism. "

So it's okay to make sweeping generalizations when speaking of Islamist (for example) if I differenetiated the words with lower case letters? Does that make the generalizations less so? When you say the word Zionist verbally are you carefull to make a hand gesture so people understand which "version" you're speaking of? Also - Zionism was never a party with a set political idealogy. Ever. It certainly can't be broken up into Big Z little z. Bad Z, tolerable z? Political Zionism, Non-political Zionism? That would be rather black and white of you wouldn't it?


"well, it's a bit naive and revisionist to insinuate that there were no broad, long term intentions by folks such as Herzl " "He DID believe in mass immigration, he DID believe in removing arabs from their land (with full compensation, of course). The timing in Europe and the middle east was right for this kind of a movement. "

Not nearly as revitionist as trying to paint Herzl as some illuminati figure with a devious dictators influence. The mass imigration was happening before the Zionists even organized, by people who had never even heard of Herzl...and last I checked, purchasing land is a perfectly acceptable thing to believe in. It's called real estate trade.


"It's a movement based the creation of a jewish state. Of COURSE you're speaking of Jews. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm merely stating a reality. A Zionist doesn't need to be Jewish. A jew doesn't need to be a Zionist. I agree, they are distinct. "

Did you take a class in this whole upper case lower case thing? Is that like a Marxist thing? Seriously, your grammatical semantics don't make your opinions any more pallatable. Jews (upper case) are different then jews (lower case) now? Is that like screaming "you can't hit me i'm invisible" during dodgeball?


"You will call anybody a bigot who disagrees with you even in the slightest. You will criticize with a condescending tone the "wrong books" we've read, and the "wrong classes" we've taken. If only we could all be truly informed and enlightened as you are, because clearly, your simplistic, black/white perspective on matters MUST be right".

Wrong books, right books...they're just books. You're pretty bold for admitting your opinions were formed in classrooms, and in the pages of text books. I know, you have friends like the United Nations and you've done shrooms a few times but get some humility. Look, there are plenty of gray areas when it comes to any topic, and Zionism is full of them. Fixating, or scapegoating on one aspect of a term like Zionism is ...well....pretty black or white of you isn't it? There are some issues that ARE black or white to those who are impassioned about them. Our right to vote, our right to freedom, the right to chose....these are ALL black and white issues for me. It's interesting to hear Noam Chomksey fans accuse others of being too simple minded or black/white because he is VERY b/w in his message. Passionate causes tend to invoke a more decided stance. When someone is bold enough to say "Zionism is shit" then sure, I will call you a bigot and disagree. You weren't reffering to Arabic Zionists or Canaanite Zionists when you made the comment, you were reffering to one faction... a Jewish one. Lower case Z or not isn't it just a polite way for you of saying "Jews I don't like" or "manipulative Jews and their supporters" ?

[Abcdxxxx]

Keep dreaming Burbank. You'd be working the ovens.

[mburbank]

I don't know, I just find the whole Kappo thing very gauche. I notcied on your list though, you didn't mention "Nazi Zionists". and why? Because the Nazis, like Kevin, hate Jews. The religous right in Israel currently demanding folks die to support their right to live in hideous trailers and cinder block huts smack in the middle of occupied land are NOT nazis. They have very diffferent taste in clothes for one, and there no where near as funny as Werner Klemperer. And HE's DEAD!

[Pub Lover]

Abcdxxxx, everyone else may already know the answer to this, but I was wondering, where did, and what caused, you to form your opinions?

[Abcdxxxx]

Pub - It's my family history, and it's a topic I've concerned myself with for the past 23 years. My family were refugees, they speak arabic as well as hebrew, and I have dual citizenship to Israel. I know people who fought for the State, donated money, were politically active. I know sabras with family lineage tracing back hundreds of years and I've talked with them. When I meet Jews the topic comes up, and I am constantly disgussing it with all sorts of people. My Uncle ran the NY office of Peace Now and still makes a living speaking around the world for Palestinian rights. I've had plenty of talks and debates with Palestinians, and Islamic Arabs on the subject. It's not one of many world events I concern myself with, it's THE issue I concern myself with the most. I've also taken the classes and read the books too. These credentials simply explain why I can see through the second hand academic rhetoric.

Burbank - Care to elaborate on this Nazi like behavior? I'd appreciate a point by point comparison, suggesting a corralation between specific IDF activities and those practiced by Nazis. If you're speaking simply of a mindset towards one group out of racial hatred, then how do you explain the climbing number of Arabs happily living as israeli citizens without persecution ?? Perhaps you're not aware of recent clashes between the Israeli Government and settlers in their cinder block trailors? So what the hell are you talking about?

[mburbank]

A few things, really;

First, like anyone who submerges themselves with passion in given issue you give the impression of disallowing opinions other than your own. I bow to your expertise. It's your raised hackles I find harder to handle. Kevin may not always be right (if indeed there are absolutes in issues as bloody and biblical as these) but I've found him to be fairly even handed for these parts.

"These credentials simply explain why I can see through the second hand academic rhetoric. "

I would say these credentials inform your view on etc. etc. You risk venturing into Ronnieland and put people off unnecesarily by your approach. Keep in mind, this is not a Zionsim board, it's the polictical wing of a Mockery Board.

I was, of course, being beyond extreme in comparing the settlers to Nazis. But I did it knowingly. Here's my take on being jew and having lost family to the Holocaust (albeit distant). I find it unimaginable and shocking that Jews, no matter how provoked, no matter the suffering they've undergone, can treat the Palestinians En Mass the way they have. I also feel the religous right wing dominates Israeli Politics. On the issue of Zionism per se, while I think a homeland was absolutely merited, creating one with ANY link to religous, biblical justification (and I'm well aware there were multiple other reasons) was a pre made disaster.

[Abcdxxxx]

Look , there were posts about Zionism etc. , before I got here. More then the stance being taken (pro-Palestinian etc.) I am concerned by the language used to argue these points.

So okay if you have distant family that were holocaust victims... the question still remains... how can you compare the harsh life of a Palestinian to the victims and survivors of the Holocaust? There's no merit behind these comparisons. So you're trying to be extreme and get a point across, but by invoking the memory of the holocaust you're cheapening it, and inadvertantly following in the footsteps of antisemites who attempt to use the remberance of the Holocaust against the victims themselves. If Jews were acting as Nazis it would be horrible... you're right... but why put that hurtfull idea out there is you can't even make a direct and specific corrolation. To some, the mere thought of Jews holding a power position puts them in the "Nazi role". It's turnspeak. Why doesn't it bother you when you hear people call Sharon, Hitler? .... and I'm not saying that means you should support him or Israel at all... but at his worst Sharon is by no means Hitler. The image of a Jewish leader with a swastika painted over his face should frighten you. Really, aren't there ways of hating him without invoking images of antisemetism? Wouldn't that be better for the cause itself? Certainly there are plenty of notorious military leaders accused of war crimes with names you can pin on him, and it would at least be an accurate comparison to the crimes Sharon is accused of... and yet Hitler isn't one of them. Can you see what I'm getting at?

Hey, and for all I know you're no more Jewish then Sammy Davis Jr. but it's apparent you identify with your ancestry and you consider yourself a Jew. That said... the main link between Jews is first and foremost a religious one....and while most modern Jews would rather see a Jewish homeland bonded by Bagels and Mel Brooks, the reality is that we are all linked by a history....one that comes from the Bible (fiction or not)...and while you might reject that concept, the truth is this is ultimately where your identity stems from. Someone in your lineage was religious. So you might be that anamoly...the Jew that denies the validity of the Jewish religion... and if you're real trendy, even resents the religion itself.... but a Jewish homeland will always have these links by the sheer nature of it's existance...and Jews will also have this link with or without a homeland.

[mburbank]

I agree with some of what you're saying, but where's the fun in that. So...

"by invoking the memory of the holocaust you're cheapening it,"

It's practically my Birthright as a Jew to cheapen the memory of the Holocaust. Wether comparing things to it, as in "This Pot Roast is worse than the Holocaust", "Jesse Jackson is orse for the Jews than Hitler" (I acatually heard that one) or siezing ownership of suffering, as in "The situation of Blacks in America cannot be compared to the Holocaust", "The deaths of Homosexuals and Gypsies in germany are not part of the Holocaust" "Rwanda is not Germany", Jews cheapen the Holocaust daily. I'm a huge NPR fan but listen to any of their call in shows and you'll hear a cheap jolocaust comparison within a half hour. No, the palestinian occupation is not really comparable to genocide, but it's a nice paralell with the Warsaw ghetto.

"Why doesn't it bother you when you hear people call Sharon, Hitler?"

I think Sharon lacks the opportunity. I think his hope in visiting the temple mount was wa to insight a new intifada. I think he knowingly turned a blind eye to the slaughter of refuges. I think that given complete free will he ould see all the Palestinians forcibly removed at best. I could be wrong. But I don't think that opinion is without merit, either.

"aren't there ways of hating him without invoking images of antisemetism?"

That's fair. And I'm not being flip here, I really do mean that's fair. There are other Militaristic Brutes who maintain a hold on power by fomenting chaos. I could compare him to Yassir Arafat, or see both of them as Milosevic with a slightly less dedicated fan base. You say much the same thing yourself, and I totally yield on this point. I ovrstate the case because it is speciffically AS a Jew that Sharon appauls me. But yes, there are more accurate comparisons.

"Hey, and for all I know you're no more Jewish then Sammy Davis Jr."

Why are Jews so frequently concerned with who's the most Jewish? Talmudic law recognizes conversion. It's a rigorous, scholarly process which leaves the convert knowing more about Judaism than the vast majority of American Jews by birth.

" the main link between Jews is first and foremost a religious one"
Who says, exactly? I think one of Israels greatest problems is it's steady drift away from secularism toward Theocracy, a horrid condition.

"and Jews will also have this link with or without a homeland."

Precisely why the Homeland would have been far better off in central Canada. Jews are a distinct people as well as a religion. Your insinuation that this bond is no more than Mel Brooks and Bagels and that the culture is merely the host organism for the religion is arrogant, Holier than thou, Ronnie like in it's concrete confidence and I think, dangerous. Certainly a Jewish Homeland will have these links. But to what degree will it as a society be dominated by them? Will it drift ever rightward until it practices it's own version of Sharia?

"and if you're real trendy, even resents the religion itself"

I don't resent it, but I find your description of this behavior as trendy pretty snotty. As can be seen on this board, I think Christianity is plagued by a fatal flaw, ie. eternal damnation. Judaism is not quite so wounded, but it holds central the idea that we are Gods chosen and others are not. Our suffering as a people should increase our compassion for others, not deaden it.

"you might be that anamoly...the Jew that denies the validity of the Jewish religion... "

I think you might be surprised. I don't think it's an anomaly at all. I recognize, accept and embrace the historical significance of my Religion, and it's many worthwhile moral teachings. It's Validity? I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean an actual covenant between us and the Lord God? Do you mean it's dietary restrictions and exclusion of outsiders? Or are you more thinking of our vast contributions to law, art and comedy? My personal feeling is it is the humorless Jew who abandons the 'validity' of his culture.

[The_Rorschach]

Didn't Kafka (or some name similar) make the original Kevin Hates Jews thread? Or was in XSimpleX?

Not my main point though, Burb, you said something that garnered by interest:

"Who says, exactly? I think one of Israels greatest problems is it's steady drift away from secularism toward Theocracy, a horrid condition."

Is this really true? I don't mean to doubt you, but it was my understanding that the majority of Israeli's were actually agnostic, and I always though they were moving towards secularism.

[mburbank]

I don't have any stats for you but I think Abcd might contribute here. The majority of Jews my well be agnostic for all I know, but the political weight carried by right wing extremist fractions in politics is highly disproportional. Annecdotaly (and I know this renders it fairly meaningless statistically) my friends who grew up in Israel and mocved here said it was a very difficult life being Jewish, living in Israel and not practicing. The legal debates over "Who is a Jew" never really end and I'm fairly certain Orthodox religous groups are not lible to manditory military service.

Israel is nowhere near a theocracy as compared to most middle eastern states, but the role religion plays in it's government should not be underestimated. I see this more as a dangerous pitfall for Israel as opposed to a current condition. I think anyone who believes the lnd they live on was given to them by God are dangerous. I'd wager W. thinks this and it makes him dangerous. People who are certain God is in their camp tend to be intractable.

[Abcdxxxx]

Burbank - Just a quick response to your last post - Rorschach's right. Israel grows more and more secular every year, both in lifestyle and lawmaking. Some are so sensitive to Israel's Jewishness that their flag alone offends them. Even agnostic Israeli's tend to have great love for the religious sites, but it's not like the entire nation is filled with Sunday school snobbery. Maybe your friend experienced some of the more hyprocritical fucked upness that does occur out there....like how people used to line the streets on Yom Kippur and throw rocks at anyone trying to drive on the holiday....mind you these people aren't religious themselves or they'd be in Temple praying, right? ... so it's obscene.... but it's one day a year.... it's not the normal climate there...and it's not government sanctioned. Think Detroit's Devils Night mixed with Boston's blue laws... and I'm not even sure that still goes on.

What impression do you actually have of the role religion plays in Israel's goverment anyway? Sharon's Likud, and the religious party are not one in the same....and when the Religious party walked out last summer not much changed at all. Their influence is minimal...and dropping rapidly.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

There were/are Marxist Zionists, Capatilist Zionists, Communist Zionists, Socialist Zionists, Imperialist Zionists, Passivist Zionists, Religious Zionists, Non-Religious Zionists, Jewish Zionist, Non- Jewish Zionists, Arabic Zionists, Cannanite Zionists, World Zionists, American Zionists, Christian Zionists, Muslim Zionists, and so on and so on.
The way I read and hear the word "Zionism" used rarely aknowledges that.

Yes, I think I've agreed with you on as much as this, but that doesn't change the fact that politicized Zionism not only justified, but essentially implemented the possession of land from other people.

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Then again it's hard to disguise your hatred when you're quoted as saying "Zionism is shit" as you have.

The kind that justifies taking land, forecfully id necessary, for the sake of a Jewsish homeland, yes, I do take issue with that.

This scathing criticism coming from someone who denounces the very existence of a Palestinian, let alone their right to self-determination.

EARLIER STATEMENT BY ABCDXXXX:

If we're talking about an identity crisis, let's also mention a few of the Iraqis, Egyptians, Kuwaitis, Syrians, Saudis, and Yemenites amongst others who ALL call themselves Palestinian when the mood strikes. Some of them even move to Gaza, which accounts for the population double within the past 8 years. To some, Palestinian is code for "Killing Jews".

So when you making a sweepind condemnation of Palestinians, or more accurately, when you are basically defending Rev. Danno for saying "F*** THE PALISTINIANS," are you saying fuck the Iraqi Palestinians, the Egyptian Palestinians, the Kuwait Palestinians, the Syrian Palestinians, the Saudi Palestinians, the Yemenite Palestinians, or simply the "kill the jews" contingent of the Palestinians??? The way I read and hear your use of the word rarely acknowledges that.

So it's okay to make sweeping generalizations when speaking of Islamist (for example) if I differenetiated the words with lower case letters? Does that make the generalizations less so? When you say the word Zionist verbally are you carefull to make a hand gesture so people understand which "version" you're speaking of?

You assume that I spend much of my day cursing Zionism, or zionism, or zIONISM, or ZiOnIsM......

Also - Zionism was never a party with a set political idealogy. Ever. It certainly can't be broken up into Big Z little z. Bad Z, tolerable z? Political Zionism, Non-political Zionism? That would be rather black and white of you wouldn't it?

The World Zionist Congress? Not to mention that the state of Israel, despite its diversity, is still a monument to the existence of this political zIoNiSm.

Not nearly as revitionist as trying to paint Herzl as some illuminati figure with a devious dictators influence. The mass imigration was happening before the Zionists even organized, by people who had never even heard of Herzl...and last I checked, purchasing land is a perfectly acceptable thing to believe in. It's called real estate trade.

How big were the "mass" Aliyah before Herzl was involved? Certainly I wasn't trying to insinuate that he was the only one involved, but he certainly had a part.

And on real estate trade-- is this how all Arabs lef the land?

Did you take a class in this whole upper case lower case thing? Is that like a Marxist thing? Seriously, your grammatical semantics don't make your opinions any more pallatable. Jews (upper case) are different then jews (lower case) now? Is that like screaming "you can't hit me i'm invisible" during dodgeball?

No, I learned it in ANTSEM101, and then we covered it again in "ANTSEM307: Why burning the Jews was a good thing, and why Karl Marx would approve"

Wrong books, right books...they're just books. You're pretty bold for admitting your opinions were formed in classrooms, and in the pages of text books.

I know, I know, like the old 80s catch phrase and book, "HARVARD HATES AMERICA." Books are bad, school is bad, professors are rotten liberals, so WHERE do we get our knowledge??? Well, we CLEARLY need an EXPERT on the matter....but where can we find one of THOSES!!!?? (scratches his head)...............I've got it!

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

It's my family history, and it's a topic I've concerned myself with for the past 23 years. My family were refugees, they speak arabic as well as hebrew, and I have dual citizenship to Israel. I know people who fought for the State, donated money, were politically active. I know sabras with family lineage tracing back hundreds of years and I've talked with them. When I meet Jews the topic comes up, and I am constantly disgussing it with all sorts of people. My Uncle ran the NY office of Peace Now and still makes a living speaking around the world for Palestinian rights. I've had plenty of talks and debates with Palestinians, and Islamic Arabs on the subject. It's not one of many world events I concern myself with, it's THE issue I concern myself with the most. I've also taken the classes and read the books too. These credentials simply explain why I can see through the second hand academic rhetoric.

WE'VE GOT AN EXPERT RIGHT HERE! THROW OUT YOUR BOOKS THAT CRITICIZE ISRAEL IN ANY WAY, WE HAVE AN EXPERT HERE WHO CAN CURE YOU OF YOUR LIBERAL EDUCATION!!!! HURRAH!!!

I know, you have friends like the United Nations and you've done shrooms a few times but get some humility.

What the hell was the point of this statement? I've never done mushrooms, or any harsh drugs before in my life. Are you insinuating that all white, American college students are drug addicts who hang out in the UN building? Is the UN a front for weed and shrooms??? What the hell are you talking about???

Look, there are plenty of gray areas when it comes to any topic, and Zionism is full of them. Fixating, or scapegoating on one aspect of a term like Zionism is ...well....pretty black or white of you isn't it? There are some issues that ARE black or white to those who are impassioned about them. Our right to vote, our right to freedom, the right to chose....these are ALL black and white issues for me.

That's very poetic, but that doesn't mean being critical of ZIOnISM makes you an anti-semite, or evil, or a Nazi, or whatever. I find it's helpful to be critical of everything, even ones own beliefs. You should try it some time....

It's interesting to hear Noam Chomksey fans accuse others of being too simple minded or black/white because he is VERY b/w in his message.

Well it's cuz we're too busy doing shrooms at the UN to clearly critique Noam, but if we had an expert like yourself around, we'd be MUCH better off......

Passionate causes tend to invoke a more decided stance. When someone is bold enough to say "Zionism is shit" then sure, I will call you a bigot and disagree. You weren't reffering to Arabic Zionists or Canaanite Zionists when you made the comment, you were reffering to one faction... a Jewish one.

Wrong. I was reffering to the "faction" that resulted in the displacement of an entire people. Does this mean I don't believe in a Jewish homeland? No. Does this even mean that TODAY, in 2003, I would justify some silly Hamas like argument of pushing the Jews out into the Mediterranean??? No. It means I question an ideology that would justify doing just about ANYTHING to take land they feel entitle to (much like I am an American who sees the good in America, yet has the ability to likewise critique manifest destiny and the killing of native Americans). You follow?

[Abcdxxxx]

Are you denouncing the existance of Palestinian born Jews (known as Sabras)? Palestine was merely a territory, and while the term has been coopted to represent a specific people and their claims to land, it never represented a seperate nation. There were Arabic Palestinians AND Jewish Palestinians. Are you denouncing the body of Sabras that now claim to be a part of an "Israeli nation" rather then a "Jewish Nation" ? Are you denouncing the movement amongst ZIonists that believed in the kinship of living amongst Palestinian Arabs? If we agree that The World Zionist Congress was diverse then how can you suggest they were anything close to a unified political body? Imperialists, Democrats, and Communists, all from seperate regions with seperate interests unified? Hardly. So what's your point? There were bad Zionist factions? Okay. Are they responsible for all the evil in the world? Like say the impending war with Iraq, and the mistreatment of Palestinian Arabs through an entire continent ? Only if you're a bigot.

In response:
There were SIX immigration movements before the formal creation of the State of Israel, mainly motivated by political and economic concerns. Not nationalism. By the time of the Six Day War the Jewish population had ballooned into the millions... why? Not to fullfill their Zionist dreams... there was simply nowhere else to go for the thousands of Russians and Poles, and Germans who left their homes to escape pogroms. "Operation Flying Carpet" removed entire populations of persecuted Arabic Jews from places like Yemen, Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, and to a lesser extent, Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. When they made it to Israel they created sub-communities, and refused to assimilate for years.

In spite of this, Sabras, born on Palestinian soil constituted 40.4 % of Israel's Jewish population.

So what's the percentage of Arab Palestinians that were dragged out by gun point, and forced from their homes unwillingly without compensation at the hands of Zionists? Hmm?

Are you denouncing the legality of population change overs, and real estate purchases in the modern age??? Plenty of Native Americans can see the difference, why can't you?

You see, I can be plenty critical of Israel (you can scroll above and read my comments on Yom Kippu rock throwing for reference) but I'm not going to do that WHEN DEFENDING MY BELIEFS FROM MORONS LIKE YOU. Idiot. I never said "fuck the palestinians"....you DID say "Zionism is shit" and that IS a direct qoutation.