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  #51  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old May 20th, 2004, 02:48 PM       
OH God

Somebody read my thesis.
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Old May 20th, 2004, 03:24 PM       
I just read Philip K Dick's "How To Build A Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later" a few days ago, I think it would do good in this thread about timely stuff.

Basically, philip k dick wrote a book called flow my tears the policeman said, and when he wrote he he wrote it like he was channeling it. This means he wrote without thinking, and wrote really fast. Four years later at a christmas party he met this girl named kathy.. ill just copy paste it i dont feel like explaining.


"It is an eerie experience to write something into a novel, believing it is pure fiction, and to learn later on -- perhaps years later -- that it is true. I would like to give you an example. It is something that I do not understand. Perhaps you can come up with a theory. I can't.

In 1970 I wrote a novel called Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said. One of the characters is a nineteen-year-old girl named Kathy. Her husband's name is Jack. Kathy appears to work for the criminal underground, but later, as we read deeper into the novel, we discover that actually she is working for the police. She has a relationship going on with a police inspector. The character is pure fiction. Or at least I thought it was.

Anyhow, on Christmas Day of 1970, I met a girl named Kathy - this was after I had finished the novel, you understand. She was nineteen years old. Her boyfriend was named Jack. I soon learned that Kathy was a drug dealer. I spent months trying to get her to give up dealing drugs; I kept warning her again and again that she would get caught. Then, one evening as we were entering a restauant together, Kathy stopped short and said, "I can't go in." Seated in the restaurant was a police inspector whom I knew. "I have to tell you the truth," Kathy said. "I have a relationship with him."

Certainly, these are odd coincidences. Perhaps I have precognition. But the mystery becomes even more perplexing; the next stage totally baffles me. It has for four years.

In 1974 the novel was published by Doubleday. One afternoon I was talking to my priest -- I am an Episcopalian -- and I happened to mention to him an important scene near the end of the novel in wich the character Felix Buckman meets a black stranger at an all-night gas station, and they begin to talk. As I described the scene in more and more detail, my priest became progressively more agitated. At last he said, "That is a scene from the Book of Acts, from the Bible! In Acts, the person who meets the black man on the road is named Philip -- your name." Father Rasch was so upset by the resemblance that he could not even locate the scene in his Bible. "Read Acts," he instructed me. "And you'll agree. It's the same down to specific details."

I went home and read the scene in Acts. Yes, Father Rasch was right; the scene in my novel was an obvious retelling of the scene in Acts... and I had never read Acts, I must admit. But again the puzzle became deeper. In Acts, the high Roman official who arrests and interrogates Saint Paul is named Felix -- the same name as my character. And my character Felix Buckman is a high-ranking police general; in fact, in my novel he holds the same office as Felix in the Book of Acts: the final authority. There is a conversation in my novel which very closely resembles a conversation between Felix and Paul.

...

But the mystery had not ended there, as I had imagined. Two months ago I was walking up to the mailbox late at night to mail off a letter, and also to enjoy the sight of Saint Joseph's Church, which sits opposite my apartment building. I noticed a man loitering suspiciously by a parked car. It looked as if he was attempting to steal the car, or maybe something from it; as I returned from the mailbox, the man hid behind a tree. On impulse I walked up to him and asked, "Is anything the mattter?"

"I'm out of gas," the man said. "And I have no money."

Incredibly, because I have never done this before, I got out my wallet, took all the money from it, and handed the money to him. He then shook hands with me and asked where I lived, so that he could later pay the money back. I returned to my apartment, and then I realized that the money would do him no good, since there was no gas station within walking distance. So I returned, in my car. The man had a metal gas can in the trunk of his car, and, together, we drove in my car to an all-night gas station. Soon we were standing there, two strangers, as the pump jockey filled the metal gas can. Suddenly I realized that this was the scene in my novel -- the novel written eight years before. The all-night gas station was exactly as I had envisioned it in my inner eye when I wrote the scene -- the glaring white light, the pump jockey -- and now I saw something which I had not seen before. The stranger who I was helping was black.

We drove back to his stalled car with the gas, shook hands, and then I returned to my apartment building. I never saw him again. He could not pay me back because I had not told him which of the many apartments was mine or what my name was. I was terribly shaken up by this experience. I had literally lived out a scene completely as it had appeared in my novel. Which is to say, I had lived out a sort of replica of the scene in Acts where Philip encounters the black man on the road. "

That's the first part.

"What could explain all this?

The answer I have come up with may not be correct, but it is the only answer I have. It has to do with time. My theory is this: In some certain important sense, time is not real. Or perhaps it is real, but not as we experience it to be or imagine it to be. I had the acute, overwhelming certitude (and still have) that despite all the change we see, a specific permanent landscape underlies the world of change: and that this invisible underlying landscape is that of the Bible; it, specifically, is the period immediately following the death and resurrection of Christ; it is, in other words, the time period of the Book of Acts.

Parmenides would be proud of me. I have gazed at a constantly changing world and declared that underneath it lies the eternal, the unchanging, the absolutely real. but how has this come about? If the real time is circa A.D. 50, then why do we see A.D. 1978? And if we are really living in the Roman Empire, somewhere in Syria, why do we see the United States?

During the Middle Ages, a curious theory arose, which I will now present to you for what it is worth. It is the theory that the Evil One -- Satan -- is the "Ape of God." That he creates spurious imitations of creation, of God's authentic creation, and then interpolates them for that authentic creation. Does this odd theory help explain my experience? Are we to believe that we are occluded, that we are deceived, that it is not 1978 but A.D. 50... and Satan has spun a counterfeit reality to wither our faith in the return of Christ? "



So there's your answer to eternity.. there is no eternity! It's just 50 ad, "eternally".

I love that essay.
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Old May 20th, 2004, 04:18 PM       
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Originally Posted by VinceZeb
Kelly, learn what anthropomorphizes means before you start throwing words out there, you fucking cunt. I am amazed that you werent a "training casulty" when you were in the military.
It means giving human characteristics to non-human life forms. The Bible says that God created man in his own image. If you believe that the Bible is the word of God, then God himself/herself is stating that he is either an organic life form similiar to man or, more likely if you favor Ockham's Razor, he is an organic life form that is almost exactly like man. Consequently, God anthropomorphized himself to a degree. What would his/her purpose be in doing that? He/She either IS, at least partly, human or not. Period. You can find several instances in Genesis where God listens, hears, speaks, shows human emotion, ect. Why would a spiritual entity feel the need to use any human forms of sentience if he were omnipotent and omnipresent? However, if you are of the opionion that man himself wrote the Bible to explain his existence, then it would be entirely probable that he would assign human forms of sentience and emotion as that is what they understood at the time. They didn't need the metaphysical that's since been infused in religion.
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Old May 20th, 2004, 04:24 PM       
And here we find two powerful testimonies to the need for a :yawn emoticon.
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Old May 20th, 2004, 04:28 PM       
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Originally Posted by "Sethomas'
How exactly is that a cop-out? Not everyone, especially not the theologians with whom I concern myself, put matters of eternity "out of the real of things humans can think about." Just because you're uneducated of such teachings doesn't mean you should turn a blind eye to the entire concept.
Don't feel badly, Seth. Even Kant, one of the most brilliant philosophers who ever lived had a hard time proving theology. He had the faith but his attempts at theological proofs were among his weakest arguments and he often avoided them altogether. How does being more or less educated lead one to literally see into eternity? That's ridiculous. Eternity is a concept and, by definition, is indiscrete, inconcrete and unknowable. Just because your faith leads you to believe you literally CAN see such things, it does not mean that you are any more capable than I to do so. It's just not real. Get it?
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Old May 20th, 2004, 04:28 PM       
intro-philosophy classes are fun!
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Old May 20th, 2004, 04:37 PM       
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Old May 20th, 2004, 04:39 PM       
hey why dont yuou gutys all stop thinking so hard drink beer and listen to some jason mraz with me?
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Old May 20th, 2004, 04:43 PM       
my mom's got some mike's hard lemonade and the josh groban cd

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Old May 20th, 2004, 04:49 PM       
In Genesis it says, "And God was walking through the garden, looking for adam and eve"(more or less). Some all present all knowing God he is.
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Old May 20th, 2004, 04:51 PM       
what, did you look for an example that was as close to the beginning of the bible as possible?
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Old May 20th, 2004, 04:53 PM       
Kelly, you're a blatant and shameful hypocrite in that you accuse a vast ontological tradition of "copping out" by making reference to eternity as a concept, but then you refuse to open your eyes to any rational contemplation of eternity because of certain predjudices you have about it. That, Kelly, is a fucking cop-out.

Eternity is a concept and, by definition, is indiscrete, inconcrete and unknowable.

I've never encountered such a definition of it, so reason dictates that you're pulling this weakly out of your ass. That's the exact same attitude that many civilizations held about weather and the cosmos. Yet what did they do? They dissected them into rational components of understanding, they applied logic to these building blocks of knowledge, and they extrapolated working models of nature. The same can be done for metaphysics.

it does not mean that you are any more capable than I to do so.

Accusing me of holding conceptions that I can hold greater abstract thought than you is no less presumptuous than you thinking I can't conceive of these things simply because YOU NEVER PUT IN THE EFFORT. I don't claim to have astounding gifts of reason. I'm merely stating that I have devoted a great deal of time in rumination on these things, so it JUST MIGHT BE POSSIBLE that I have a tad bit more insight into them than the majority of people here.

The attitude that "eternity is complicated, don't even TRY to fathom it" is just defeatist and ignorant.
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Old May 20th, 2004, 05:14 PM       
If you can measure it, or have a knowledge of it by contemplating it, then it is not, by definition, eternal. You then would need to do more contemplating and so, ad infitum. I didn't say I didn't spend any time thinking about it. I just don't think about it all the time like some. :shrug
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Old May 20th, 2004, 05:18 PM       
Maybe by your definition. Which SUCKS.
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Old May 20th, 2004, 05:31 PM       
I'll go you one better, Seth: This whole thread needs a :yawn emoticon.
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Old May 21st, 2004, 01:45 AM       
Finite minds cannot comprehend the infinite.
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Old May 21st, 2004, 02:39 AM       
ETERNITY ISN'T INFINITY.
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Old May 21st, 2004, 04:30 AM       
I'd like to take this moment to apologize for starting this thread.
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Old May 21st, 2004, 01:44 PM       
God loves you.
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Old May 21st, 2004, 03:13 PM       
OKAY EVERYONE ETERNITY ISNT INFINITY, NOT THAT ANY OF US HAVE PERMISSION TO CHANGE THE TOPIC, WE DO NOT. ONLY SETH HAS THAT POWER. Eternity and infinity cannot be discussed in the same sentence, because seth gets confused.


"Infinity

n : time without end [syn: eternity, forever]

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University"

"eternity

\E*ter"ni*ty\, n.; pl. Eternities. [F. ['e]ternit['e], L. aeternitas, fr. aeternus. See Etern.] 1. Infinite duration, without beginning in the past or end in the future; also, duration without end in the future; endless time."

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Old May 21st, 2004, 03:48 PM       
A dictionary! Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that?
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Old May 21st, 2004, 05:14 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
OKAY EVERYONE ETERNITY ISNT INFINITY, NOT THAT ANY OF US HAVE PERMISSION TO CHANGE THE TOPIC, WE DO NOT. ONLY SETH HAS THAT POWER. Eternity and infinity cannot be discussed in the same sentence, because seth gets confused.


"Infinity

n : time without end [syn: eternity, forever]

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University"

"eternity

\E*ter"ni*ty\, n.; pl. Eternities. [F. ['e]ternit['e], L. aeternitas, fr. aeternus. See Etern.] 1. Infinite duration, without beginning in the past or end in the future; also, duration without end in the future; endless time."

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Can you spot the difference in those two definitions, though, Kahl?

Infinity can have a beginning; eternity does not.
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Old May 21st, 2004, 05:45 PM       
uhh, infinite has no begining, like when you make a line on a graph. Now that line may seem like it starts where you started it, but depending on the ratio it will go backwards and forwards, infinitley. What the fuck is this. If there was "Infinite Time" then it would have to go BOTH ways, INFINITLEY.


"infi·nite·ly adv.
infi·nite·ness n.

Synonyms: infinite, boundless, eternal, illimitable, sempiternal
These adjectives mean being without beginning or end: infinite wisdom; boundless ambition; eternal beauty; illimitable space; sempiternal truth. See also synonyms at incalculable

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved."
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Old May 21st, 2004, 06:23 PM       
Actually, calculus goes against you yet again. An infinite regression can in fact have a lower limit, so infinity does in fact have beginning.

And you're wasting your time with dictionary entries, since they're not meant to be philosophically rigorous. I already supplied my definition from my sources. Not like that concerns you, anyways.
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Old May 21st, 2004, 06:39 PM       
Want to know something neat. Infinite can be used as an adjective, this means you can attach words to it that give it different meanings, like infinte regression. Wow, nice job stupid fuck, "Can" have a lower limit.

You are a philisophical genius!
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