Yet another stupid evolution 'debate'

[kahljorn]

"I believe there is a negative ethical or moral effect to believing that nothing but blind luck made us so far superior to anything else in the world"

Uh, okay it's not like we had any direct control over how we were made or anything. It's just kind of "luck" that god "Happened" to "Make" "Us".
You don't like evolution because it doesn't let you feel superior to anything else in the world?

What is the negative ethical and moral effect? Please describe it, because I've never heard of a serial killer who tried to devolve people or something.

"I so much prefer the moral and ethical path inferred by intentional existence. "

What? How is it moral and ethical? The bible gives a moral and ethical code, TRUE, but it's not like the entire existence is moral and ethical. God didn't create the animals to not eat eachother. He didn't create us to not kill and steal from eachother. There was a tree of good and evil. We ate it. Stuff happened.

'We were intentionally created with the ability to be immoral and unethical! Yet it's superior to this science that suggests (to you, and only you) that life might be immoral and unethical!'

This makes no sense, preechr, if we can be immoral and unethical because of some science, then god intentionally made it so we could be immoral and unethical, thus existence is not moral or ethical because god did not intentionally create it to be moral or ethical and if he did there would be no problems of things being immoral or unethical.
GOD INTENTIONALLY CREATED THE UNIVERSE/US WITH THE ABILITY TO BE IMMORAL AND UNETHICAL< THAT MUCH IS OBVIOUS BY THE FACT THAT WE ARE IMMORAL A ND UNETHICAL.
Are you saying that something happened without God's intent? Because I thought that was impossible from a religous angle.

Sorry if I repeated myself a few times I just thought that was something important.

"I am willing to say that I accept on it's face whatever it is you propose I should believe on this subject."

I don't want you to believe jackshit, like I mentioned earlier in this thread BELIEF IS ILLOGICAL. I'd rather you use your brain and be a decent human being than believe whatever I tell you.


Religion has been just an immoral and unethical as science has ever been especially in a sociological sense, and don't try to deny it.
Now tell me how it has an immoral and unethical sociological effect, because I can guarantee you it has nothing to do with evolution itself.

I thought I should throw this in at the end:
Are the scientists who work on evolution immoral?
If i believe in evolution will I instantly become an unethical rapist?
Does everyone who believes evolution co nstantly act unethical and immoral?
Has the world changed much since evolution came around? Has it caused alot of people to act immoral?
"Hey man why should I be nice to you man I evolved from a worm!" Have you heard that recently?

I seriously don't see how it causes people to be unethical, I can see you're saying that potentially because people aren't sucking god's cock they might do something naughty(because never in the history of man has anything immoral or unethical happened until evolution came around) and it might trigger some rave of immorality.
The thing I think you're angling at most is that people will give up on living life well. I don't see that happening. Whether we believe god created us, or we came from worms, we still live in this world and if we want to survive amicably then we have to perform certain things. If evolution becomes a fact police officers and the government won't disappear off of the face of the planet. Practically nothing would happen. I mean, we still have life to live.

Regardless of if god created us or not, we still have the same problems to face and the same society to develop in the same way. Nothing will change. We still have responsibility for what happens around us, if anything we have MORE of a responsibility because we are the ones who are actually in charge of making things happen. We can't rely on God anymore, WE have to make things better. Pretty much the same way it is now, huh? I haven't seen God coming down to deliver us morality recently, all of it comes from the heart of humanity. [existentialist]

You're paranoid. And sorry that's scattered I'm in a rush and such.

[Immortal Goat]

Well, Preechr would say that people have been more immoral since the theory of evolution came around, because in his view, believing in evolution IS immoral. We're supposed to be good little Christians and never question anything that disputes the bible, because the Lord Almighty knows that nothing immoral has EVER happened in the name of God.

[kahljorn]

Yea i know, I was thinking of posting something about how some religous people are constantly immoral, and I can think of a few examples in which the immoral actions were actually derived from the religion. For example, priests touching little boys. Why? Frustration because they can't have sex, which is a religous rule.

I didn't because I knew his argument would be, "But that's the people not the religion!" Then I would say something like, "Well that's th e people not the science!"

[Immortal Goat]

lol, preemptive strike.

[Preechr]

Jesus H. Christ.

I am not a Christian.

I have been in exactly four churches, in fact, since I turned 18, once apiece. I can just about promise you that any problems either of you might have with orgainized religion in general or Christianity in specific, mine are more numerous and better thought out.

This could well be the ninth time we've rounded back to the beginning of this stupid little cycle.

Why do I talk to you at all?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You enjoy typing.

[Big Papa Goat]

The problem with evolution, and I don't know if I mentioned this here or not, is that it obliterates the question of why humans exist and replaces it with how humans came to exist. Evolution makes humans a contingent phenomenon, rather than a neccesary substance, that is to say it makes us an event that depended on contingent historical circumstances, rather than a thing with a neccesary and unchangable nature.

The significance of this is that if we are contingent, and not neccesary, then why should our actions be neccesarily one way, and not the other? We are the way we are because of contingent circumstances, so we could just as easily been some other way, so how can we have a neccesary morality? Morality is what is good for humans, but t humans aren't neccesarily any paticular way, because humans aren't actually neccesary. We could have happened to be some other way, or not happened at all (we could have all been aborted by evolution, at least then we wouldn't have to suffer our existence in these shitty mortal coils am I right fellas) if things just worked out a bit differently. There was no reason we are the way we are, so there can be no reason we should do things in any particular way. Basically what I'm saying is that evolution doesn't provide for 'the heart of humanity'.

[Immortal Goat]

Personally, I think the world would have been better off if humanity hadn't evolved. You can't argue that we are "neccesary" without getting into what we are "neccesary" for. Why does the earth need us? What have we done, other than pilliage it continuously? Sure, we've had environmental protection, but only from the actions of humans, not animals.

So, answer me this. If your argument is that evolution can't be correct because it gets rid of the "neccesity" of humanity, then what is it that makes us a "neccesary" addition to the world's species?

Oh, and Preechr, if you aren't Christian, you aren't making it all that clear. Where, exactly, do you get your creation mythology from, then?

[ziggytrix]

He believes in The Force.

[Big Papa Goat]

I'm not saying it can't be correct, I'm saying that is a philosophical problem. If humans aren't neccesary, then human morality can't be neccesary either, that's what I'm saying. And I'm not saying that humans are neccesary, I'm saying that we aren't neccesary because we are the product of evolution. You actually seem to understand the argument I'm making pretty well, but you don't seem to have any notion of it's significance. I mean,

Personally, I think the world would have been better off if humanity hadn't evolved.

this is a remarkably terrible thing to say. How can you justify any human morality if you don't even think that human existence has any value? And if you do think human existence has value, then why do you think it would better if we didn't exist? Wait, I'm curious, are you against the death penalty by any chance? Or against the Iraq war? I'm curious about how you come up with reasons to treat other people with dignity or respect other peoples' right to live.

[ziggytrix]

One can dispassionately believe that humanity has had a negative impact on the planet, and yet still selfishly be glad we're here.

Frankly though, I think it's still a little early in the game to make that assessment. Ask again in about 5000 years.

[kahljorn]

No offense and I'm sure you guys don't believe what you're saying completely but you guys are fucking stupid. Regardless of if there's God or evolution our actions still have an effect and THATS ALL THERE IS TO IT-- CAUSE AND EFFECT. How can you guys forget simple shit like that? If you want a functioning society you have to behave in a certain manner. the fucking end. I'll still address what you say but regardless of if there's a god or evolution if everyone in the world acted like a fucking dick nothing would work.

"then why should our actions be neccesarily one way, and not the other? "

Because if you kill everyone in the world everyone in the world will be dead and there will be no society and really our functioning would diminish. maybe that answer is only obvious to me because I'm absolutely insane or something but to me it seems like reality and all I really care about is reality because if it's unrealistic and has nothing to do with reality than it will never effect me and why should I care, right?

"There was no reason we are the way we are"

Just because we don't necessarily understand it doesn't mean there's no reason, there's obviously some distinction between reptiles and mammals that we obviously share which makes us "Higher" than reptiles. Most of it has to do with community and a social enviroment, and I'm willing to bet it's that very same structure that brought us about through whatever manner of "luck". It's just like "odds" when you're gambling, some games have high chances to win and high pay off, and there's good reasons for it(Some games intrinisically have better odds of winning, I'm saying some species, in some circumstances, intrinsically have a higher chance of survival and are thus SUPERIOR). There's good reasons why we, and our ancestors, survived. You guys may think it's an unintelligent system, but the very meaning of the word intelligent has to do with being able to adapt to situations.
Evolution is also a process of survival or whatever you want to call it. I know you guys think that's unlucky or meaningless but when it comes down to REALITY(yet again) that's the only way it could've worked out unless there's a magical god to pick what would work best where.

"Basically what I'm saying is that evolution doesn't provide for 'the heart of humanity'."

Who cares if evolution provides it? you're acting like evolution is God now, EVOLUTION DOESNT HAVE FEELINGS, it didn't pick it's best friends to make the "top of the food chain". HUMANS PROVIDE IT. That's the point, and I'd dare to say it's also the point of Richard Dawkins memetics. That's why I said, "From the heart of humanity" and not, "From the heart of evolution". BECAUSE IT FUCKING COMES FROM HUMANITY NOT EVOLUTION. Humanity may be the effect of evolution, but evolution and humans aren't the same thing. I'm sure I don't need to explain that statement.

And also obviously evolution favors socially motivated species because mammals are generally considered the most sophisticated and complex systems(there's entire sciences like sociology and psychology dedicated to just that singular aspect of mammals), with a better chance of survival than many other creatures. Mammals have the most complex brains and most complex psychology, which means they are MORE INTELLIGENT. I just wanted to throw that last statement out, it really has no value except at face.

"I am not a Christian."

Sorry, what are you? and regardless of if you're christian the point that religion has caused pedophilian rapists(which is IMMORAL) is still valid.

"If humans aren't neccesary, then human morality can't be neccesary either, that's what I'm saying."

Another issue of reality? Regardless of the "Truth" of that statement, human morality is necessary to humans(and obviously human society).

PS I just went wine testing.

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

No offense and I'm sure you guys don't believe what you're saying completely but you guys are fucking stupid.

None taken, cockbreath!

[kahljorn]

I wasn't really talking to you, my savage cuntley.

[Immortal Goat]

Big Papa Goat, how can you possibly argue that humans have not had a completely negative, detrimental impact on this planet? I justify human morality by my belief that, even though we've fucked the world, we're already here, so we should prevent as much further damage as we can. We have evolved our sense of morality, and we can't go back from that, so we must deal with it.

EDIT: I hope I'm not in the "stupid" catagory, because I completely agree with Kahl here.

[kahljorn]

I was really just arguing versus the notion more than anything. I find it preposterous that people can forget that they are alive and living in this world when they pass judgement.
Just because people are talking about philosophy or belief systems or whatever we all have to suddenly develop our own psuedo-realities that we imagine with our assholes and completely disregard our own situation.
I don't really understand that processing of logic.

I can understand how ideas can be destructive and all but usually that's just due to shattering preconceived notions of reality.

[Preechr]

After four freakin pages, this actually finally went somewhere.

[Big Papa Goat]

In case I was misunderstood earlier, I do believe in evolution, (see the rest of this thread, I think I was in it at some points) I was just trying to illuminate for some of you the problems that some people have with the idea.
I mean, look at Immortal Goat here, I'm not sure if it has anything to do with his belief in evolution or not, but he can't even justify the existence of human beings. Seriously, I don't know if you meant something different from what I thought you did IG, but that's pretty bad.
So ya, I dunno, I think I might be getting at what Preechr wanted to talk about, but these moral problems are just disturbing things that have to be dealt with, not excuses to ignore biological facts.

Also

"Basically what I'm saying is that evolution doesn't provide for 'the heart of humanity'."

Who cares if evolution provides it?

I haven't seen God coming down to deliver us morality recently, all of it comes from the heart of humanity

That's what I was talking about there.

[Immortal Goat]

My point is that human existence doesn't NEED to be justified. What does it matter? If you found out that humanity evolved from a worm or suddenly popped into being, would it change the way you life your everyday life? I should hope not.

We exist. Period. The how and the why aren't even important. It's the "what do we do now?" that's important. I could care less who believes in evolution and who believes in creationism. There is a place for both in this world, and neither should intrude on the other's territory.

[kahljorn]

"That's what I was talking about there."

I know what you were referring to I just wasn't sure why you'd think that evolution would provide morals for the human social system, the point of my statement is that morals were created by human beings. I mean, certainly it could be argued that evolution caused morals but I wouldn't make that argument.

"We exist. Period. "

I agree with what you're saying I don't understand how people allow themselves to become so disillusioned by a thought process that they forget they are alive or something.