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  #1  
Pharaoh Pharaoh is offline
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Old Feb 23rd, 2006, 10:06 AM        Holocaust denier jailed for three years
A British pensioner, David Irving has been jailed for three years in Austria, for denying the Holocaust 17 years ago, even though he now admits he was wrong.

'The jail sentence was imposed despite a last-minute about turn by the author in court: he conceded that he had been mistaken when he claimed in two speeches in 1989 that gas chambers at Auschwitz were a "fairytale".
Irving appeared visibly stunned by the verdict. As he walked out of court after the seven-hour hearing to begin his sentence he could only say: "I’m very shocked and I’m going to appeal."
"I am not a Holocaust denier. My views have changed," he said outside court. "History is a constantly growing tree: the more you learn, the more documents are available, the more you learn, and I have learned a lot since 1989.
"Yes, there were gas chambers," Mr Irving added. "Millions of Jews died, there is no question. I don’t know the figures. I’m not an expert on the Holocaust."
Link here

I think this law only makes Holocaust history look weaker. If it's the truth that 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis, then you shouldn't need a law to protect it. Stopping free speech by jailing people will only make people suspicious that it's not completely true.
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Feb 23rd, 2006, 10:13 AM       
You have to remeber though, that jailing this guy not only brings Jews back from the dead, it prevents future stupidity on the part of Historians.

jailing this guy is horrible.

But... Uh... "Pharoah"... Makes holocaust history look weaker?

Isn't that saying there is a legitimate debate bout if it happened? Not that you don't have every right to question it and in no way should you be jailed, but... Weaker? Seriously? That's what you think?
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Pharaoh Pharaoh is offline
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Old Feb 23rd, 2006, 10:23 AM       
I've always believed that the Holocaust happened and that 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis, but this jailing makes me wonder why they have to protect that history so much. The majority of people believe that 9/11 happened even though there are plenty of 9/11 deniers. We don't need to jail them, just laugh at them. So what's the difference?
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Feb 23rd, 2006, 10:37 AM       
Huh. I thought this stupid ass anti-free speech law was an Austrian law. I didn't realize Jew laws could be so far reaching.

I kind of figured this Austrian law was based in Austrian shame over austrian actions.

I just want to be clear that while I don't think anti-semitisim should be illegal, it does exist. But I'm sure some of your best friends are Jews.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2006, 02:06 PM       
One of my best friends is Jewish actually, and I support the Israelis against Palestinian terrorism. But I don't think this sort of nonsense does Jews any good.
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Feb 23rd, 2006, 02:13 PM       
Well I'm just personally relieved that you like Jews.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2006, 02:17 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
One of my best friends is Jewish actually, and I support the Israelis against Palestinian terrorism. But I don't think this sort of nonsense does Jews any good.
Isn't this the response everybody gives? "One of my best friends is black/asian/jewish/etc."
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Old Feb 23rd, 2006, 02:25 PM       
So...in 1989, Irving is convinced the holocaust was a myth - but somehow, some irrefutable evidence that has appeared since then changed his mind.
So the evidence of the holocaust from 1945-89 was completely worthless, but in the last 17 years some proof miraculously appeared to change his mind! What a coincidence, and just in time for Irving's trial!
Fucking laughable -
The guy is a complete wanker, and I am glad they locked the fucker up.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2006, 02:48 PM       
They created these laws for the same reason they left the concentration camps in place. The type of denial we're talking about, isn't meant to stifle debate, so much as target any attempts to rewrite history to cast blame on innocent parties. Why is that such a concern? Because the revitionism actually started while the Holocaust was still underway, and it was a matter of holding people accountable, to the point where it had to be illegal to deny it when they went to round up the Nazis. So much of the Holocaust was as a result of the propaganda campaigns to begin with. Who would have ever thought Holocaust revitionism would be making it on to best sellers lists, or that Jews on University campuses would be harrassed by students wearing Swastika armbands in public ? So yeah, in places like Austria, it hits to close to home, and they consider that criminal behavior rather then free speech.

Now, let me try to explain it a different way. After WW2, Germany and the other Nazi States wanted to move on, start fresh and forget what had happened. They needed to reinvent themselves, and erase the past. The last thing they wanted was open discourse on the Holocaust or to even stay associated with it. You see, this wasn't for the sake of tolerance, or hurting a Jews feelings, they just did it because they were guilty, and needed to cope.
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Geggy Geggy is offline
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Old Feb 23rd, 2006, 04:14 PM       
I still fail to see how is it anti-semitic to question the holocaust. It could be the russians, it could be the japaneses and I'd still question the number of people actually killed. I'm having hard times believing 6 million jews were killed, especially after looking at the facts. So far no one has convinced me, instead people called me an anti-semitic like a big fucking baby. But that doesn't mean I don't think the holocaust happened, I know it happened and I think it sucks. I'm an american and america don't have laws for questioning the holocaust. I like this country very much. Very nice...

And Pharoah, I usually laugh at people who believes the official story of 9/11...
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Pharaoh Pharaoh is offline
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Old Feb 23rd, 2006, 05:24 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
One of my best friends is Jewish actually, and I support the Israelis against Palestinian terrorism. But I don't think this sort of nonsense does Jews any good.
Isn't this the response everybody gives? "One of my best friends is black/asian/jewish/etc."
Isn't this the response everybody gives to what? I was asked if any of my best friends were Jewish, and so I answered yes. What do you expect me to say?
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Old Feb 23rd, 2006, 06:29 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
One of my best friends is Jewish actually, and I support the Israelis against Palestinian terrorism. But I don't think this sort of nonsense does Jews any good.
Isn't this the response everybody gives? "One of my best friends is black/asian/jewish/etc."
"What gives you the right to make fun of black people?"

"Hey, my best friend is Cuban, and that's close enough."

"Oh, I'm sorry."[/Tosh]
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Slinky Ferret Slinky Ferret is offline
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Old Feb 23rd, 2006, 08:11 PM       
You need to read this book or watch the documentary.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...985320-2001203

Not only did the producer spend years painfully researching and writing before making the documentary but he also tried to show both sides of the story. To ask the guards why they did, what they thought etc. etc. Mixed with the real life stories are photographs and real film footage.

If anything it makes you think and realise it isn't just stories. People really did live and die in horrific circumstances. We will probably never know exactly how many.
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Abcdxxxx Abcdxxxx is offline
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Old Feb 23rd, 2006, 09:57 PM       
Geggy - questioning the numbers is usually a method for questioning the authenticity of the historical accounts in general. When someone tells your 180,000 people died in Darfur, or that the Armenian Genocide produced millions of deaths, is your first reaction to demand proof the death tolls weren't inflated? Do you consult the conspiracy pages or look for holes in the story?

Holocaust revitionism attributes lies the victims, and the majority of the victims were Jews. It's different then questioning a government or the establishment.

What's the implication, if you catch a discrepency in the Holocaust numbers anyway? What does it prove if 3 million died instead of 6? What would it prove if 7 million died instead of 6 ? What are you implying when you infer that Jews intentionally distort facts of the Holocaust?
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Pharaoh Pharaoh is offline
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Old Feb 24th, 2006, 07:55 AM       
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.*


*Unless it's denying the Holocaust, or Islamaphobic, or racist, sexist, homophobic, in fact anything I don't approve of.
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Old Feb 24th, 2006, 09:49 AM       
You can do better then that.

Can't you?
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Old Feb 24th, 2006, 09:55 AM       
I sincerely doubt it.
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I don't get it. I mean, why did they fuck with the formula? Where are the car songs? There's only one song about surfing and it's a downer!
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Feb 24th, 2006, 10:24 AM       
hee hee
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Kulturkampf Kulturkampf is offline
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Old Feb 24th, 2006, 09:50 PM       
Pharoah is right -- ur freedom of speech is merely an orgy for people who are like you. it is not real.
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Old Feb 24th, 2006, 11:29 PM       
i'm american. i don't have any friends. sometimes i like fold an aclu newsletter into the shape of an orgami frog, so i can pretend he's my friend. my frog thinks he's lenny bruce.
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maggiekarp maggiekarp is offline
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 01:22 AM       
This was brought up on another forum I frequent. A girl my age asked what the Holocaust was.

There was a secret meeting of "WTF"s and she was politely told what it was, but it still makes you think.
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Pharaoh Pharaoh is offline
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 08:27 AM       
From what I've read about David Irving, the only thing he denied was that gas chambers were used to kill Jews. He doesn't deny that the Nazis killed Jews but he doesn't believe that Hitler ordered the systematic extermination of the Jews in gas chambers.

It looks to me like he's more objecting to how the German people have been portrayed by other historians, rather than being anti-Jewish. He was a very well respected historian up to about 20 years ago and this jailing is just going to make people wonder what exactly he's written.

Anyway, thank God for the Internet, if it wasn't for that then saying we've got freedom of speech would just be a joke.
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 08:55 AM       
Doesnt sound like you've read much about Irving then, does it?
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I don't get it. I mean, why did they fuck with the formula? Where are the car songs? There's only one song about surfing and it's a downer!
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Pharaoh Pharaoh is offline
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 09:11 AM       
I never said I had read much about him. Have you? Go on then Dole, inform me, what do you know about what he's said? Don't just tell me I don't know something, tell me what you know. All you ever do is write pathetic little insults at anybody you don't agree with, but you really say nothing at all.
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Old Feb 25th, 2006, 09:24 AM       
quit yer whinin'.

i have to say that regardless of what this man has said or why he's said it, i don't agree with his being jailed because of it. a state's taking away basic freedoms, like that of expression, it seems to me, is as wrong as the holocaust was, regardless of the intent.
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