Go Back   I-Mockery Forum > I-Mockery Discussion Forums > Philosophy, Politics, and News
FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Sethomas Sethomas is offline
Antagonistic Tyrannosaur
Sethomas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Abstruse Caboose
Sethomas is probably a spambot
Old Feb 21st, 2006, 11:07 PM        Hell as oblivion
So, I had to do a research report on an article examining Anselm's view of hell in a modern context. The author of the article was a total dumbass, but he did guide my own thoughts into certain directions.

We know from orthodox theology that hell is an everlasting separation from God. That's it. According to Occasionalism, we see that God is our sustaining modus operandi of existence. Therefore, if we are detached from God, we cease to exist. I fail to see the problem there. If you're not going to heaven when you die, you simply vanish. Some people would rather go to the eternal pots of boiling oil than be annihilated, but that's just stupid. Furthermore, active punishment for a deterministic world is just asinine. I believe in God and all that entails, but hell just makes so much more sense when it just means oblivion.
__________________

SETH ME IMPRIMI FECIT
Reply With Quote
  #2  
CrazyBlackDude CrazyBlackDude is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
CrazyBlackDude is probably a spambot
Old Feb 21st, 2006, 11:10 PM       
So how does that explain how Hell is eternal suffering, because if you cease to exist, you are unable to feel anything, including suffering. I'm not a biblical scholar, but I'm fairly certain the Bible explicitly refers to Hell as suffering or tormenting or some other applicable synonym.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Sethomas Sethomas is offline
Antagonistic Tyrannosaur
Sethomas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Abstruse Caboose
Sethomas is probably a spambot
Old Feb 21st, 2006, 11:45 PM       
You're right, but I think that's mostly a scare tactic into living a good life.
__________________

SETH ME IMPRIMI FECIT
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Preechr Preechr is offline
=======
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: NA
Preechr is probably a spambot
Old Feb 21st, 2006, 11:52 PM       
Hell doesn't exist.

Sin only exists in man.

Man is the devil.
__________________
mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Womti Womti is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Womti sucksWomti sucksWomti sucksWomti sucks
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 12:07 AM       
I prefer to believe in purgatory over hell. I mean, how could an angel become so powerful? all the bible says is that satan was cast down from the heavens. you'd figure he would have just died or something. the fact that he turned into a god is pretty illogical. also, it would have been impossible for him to have his own domain (hell). in short, just how did satan become so powerful?

EDIT: I shall never post in this forum again.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Pub Lover Pub Lover is offline
Näyttelijäbotti!
Pub Lover's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Mogadishu, Texas
Pub Lover is probably pretty okPub Lover is probably pretty okPub Lover is probably pretty okPub Lover is probably pretty okPub Lover is probably pretty ok
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 12:13 AM       
Mister Dale, you are so grossly ignorant that it hurts my head that you even dare attempt to enter into this discussion.

To answer your question, Satan is really God, & the guy we think is God is just a big farty McLiarpants.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Boogie
No YouTube embeds in your sigs, poindexter.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
MLE MLE is offline
CHIEF OF POLICE
MLE's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Nice Chinese Restaurant
MLE is probably pretty okMLE is probably pretty okMLE is probably pretty okMLE is probably pretty ok
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 12:20 AM       
Haha, I thought you said "Minister Dale"

Anyone they treads into the subject of Religion and bases their arguements only on logic is not going to get anywhere. Religion is based on belief. Science is based in facts as well as we know them and logic. There is not much to be gained by mixing the two when providing support for claims.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Sethomas Sethomas is offline
Antagonistic Tyrannosaur
Sethomas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Abstruse Caboose
Sethomas is probably a spambot
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 12:34 AM       
Story of my life, MLE.

There have been many "proofs" of a god's existence, some more successful than others. But to the contrary, there have only been arguments of its unlikeliness. Therefore, theology can be tied to reason as long as it abides by the laws of reason.

After all, we're all going to die, so we're all going to find out whether or not there's an afterlife. That is, unless death is oblivion, in which case we don't really have an oportunity to appreciate death for what it is. It's only human nature to question, What comes next?

In my line of thinking, there is only one a priori argument, and that is that God exists. I have my own proof for this. The rest is just applying logic and Occam's Razor.
__________________

SETH ME IMPRIMI FECIT
Reply With Quote
  #9  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
Mocker
El Blanco's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, NY
El Blanco is probably a spambot
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 01:04 AM       
I was taught that Hell is not so much a place as it is a state. The removal from God's Grace.

Of course, I figured I'll just let you filthy liberals find out and then tell me.
__________________
according to my mongoose, anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NO
kahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contest
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 01:44 AM       
According to any gnostic, early christian, buddhist, hindu etc. Oblivion is actually union with God and Earth is as far from God as you can get. Hence "Falling from the garden of eden" which is essentially a metaphore that runs through many religions(all of them, I think) indicating that we have fallen from God's presence and entered the materialistic world of Duality. This makes sense in many ways.

Have you ever heard of Hermes trismegestus? Read his, "Poimadres". If you can find the narrative version I think it's better than the original, although you're probably into that biblical lingo.
__________________
NEVER
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Sethomas Sethomas is offline
Antagonistic Tyrannosaur
Sethomas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Abstruse Caboose
Sethomas is probably a spambot
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 01:50 AM       
Gnostics are weird. :/
__________________

SETH ME IMPRIMI FECIT
Reply With Quote
  #12  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
mburbank has disabled reputation
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 09:57 AM       
According to Pat Bennatar, Hell, Hell is for Children.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Cosmo Electrolux Cosmo Electrolux is offline
Stone Pants Rabbit
Cosmo Electrolux's Avatar
Join Date: May 2001
Location: In your distant memory
Cosmo Electrolux is probably a spambot
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 10:01 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
I was taught that Hell is not so much a place as it is a state. The removal from God's Grace.

Of course, I figured I'll just let you filthy liberals find out and then tell me.
Given a choice between eternal damnation, and eternity with the likes of Bush, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson...I'll take my chances with the brimstone, thank you very much.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NO
kahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contest
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 12:12 PM       
Gnostics ARE fucking weird. I can tell you why since I attended a Rosicrucian(Not the RORC one, either) temple around here for a while, I'll probably shoot around between regular gnosticism and regular other religions and crazy rosicrucian stuff:

Their belief system is essentially derived from gnosticism, with the added benefit of "Science". They believe in the "Heart atom" which is like your "True" soul(the common 'soul' is actually just our blood). I guess they talk about it in the bible and call it the "Mustard seed", or the diamond in the lotus in buddhism(it appears in every religion). It is the only part of us that is eternal, because it is a part of divine man before he fell(basically, it's a piece of adam and eve).

The way the fall(in the bible it's being casted out of the garden of eden) supposedly came to pass is by Narcissus. You see, they claim man was originally an inhabitant of the sixth or seventh sphere(I can't remember because I usually compare their spheres with the Sephira of the Qabalists), for now we'll say the sixth sphere. Qabalistically this represents "Beauty" or jesus christ(same in gnosticism), essentially it's Divine man, the highest state "Man" can ever reach; the position God created us to fill(it's funny to see how symbolical maps, since that's what the tree of life is, can fit into so many religous/philosophical beliefs. There's even an entire book of comparisons by aleister crowley called liber 777, it's basically a map so you can understand any religion or belief system, based on the idea that they all tell the same story in different ways so all you have to do is get the placement correct. If you've ever compared the mythology of ancient countries you'd notice a dastardly indifference between their God's).
Originally we were creators under God, and we created this world. Apparantly we fell in love with our creations, and desired to become a part of nature. According to them and their unscientific science, we sort of stared inwards at ourselves, and became too hot and one of our "heart atoms"(it has three components) shot out from the "Pressure". Anyway, there's alot of stories(many religions and mythologies) about this too, man trying to become one with nature; How he/she had to give up pieces of himself to become low enough to enter the earthly sphere(I recall the story of someone giving up their various articles of clothing).

Anyway, that's the story of the fall. As I said, it all relates to the fall within the bible of adam and eve being kicked out of the garden of eden, paradise, into the world of dialectics, suffering and death. This is a pervasive theme in all religions, and it's been argued and 'proven' on many occasions that genesis was actually taken from other religions. Either that, or they are all divinely influenced and thus have the same stories. Take your pick.

The rosicrucians interpret the above similarly to any other religion. They believe our purpose here on earth is simply to return to "Heaven" or to "Union with god" or to become christ or enter the sixth sphere. Through this, however, they take the rather dire approach to life on earth as being pointless; it's a dialectical world so there's nothing that can be done here. There will always be death, pain, suffering and whatever other ailments exist here, so there's no use being here or putting any effort towards life on earth. It can never be perfect or better, because it is dialectical; and in dialectics there is no "perfect"; just mediaries between perfect and entirely flawed. Even if perfection(or better) were somehow acheived; it's a dialectical universe so eventually it's going to balance out again.
They allow that sort of philosophy to enter their entire personality, to pervade it with dogma and thoughtlessness. In my opinion they are just trying to hide from life here(oh so much suffering and pain withdrawl withdrawl), and I find it to be rather pointless. If you look at christ's example you'll see he transcended and acheived union with god by direct involvement with and sacrifice for the Earthly sphere. Same with buddha and anybody else who supposidely transcended; boddhisatva perhaps ;(.

There's some ideas in gnosticism that are interesting. You have to realize, with alot of religions they are merely describing psychological functions(which could sometimes be called 'nature', keep that in mind). They have this thing called the 'Auric Being' which is essentially our "Higher self". This isn't to be confused with the divine man, rather it's the psychological state that we set on a pedastal. For example, for Christians it could be the virgin mary, it could be jesus, it could even be George Bush or anybody else; essentially the important part is that it's a state of being we strive to acheive(or that which effects us). According to them, transcending the auric being is the first step to acheving transendence(which makes sense, since it's basically saying to overcome your attachments and boundaries since they limit your scope of understanding and you thus have a less likely chance of finding 'truth').
There's also a Worldly Auric Being which is the same as the individual auric being except that it relates to the entire world. This is why many stupid gnostics have the belief that God is evil; because of the Worldly auric being. Really, though, the worldly auric being should be considered stupid and evil, simotaneously, for one could consider it the natural state(like in nature) of all humans and animals, combined, rolled into a sweet Godly figure whom we worship as survivor; god of malkuth. Anyway, that is just one aspect of the auric being, but I thought it would be easiest to understand it in that fashion. Just so you know, that's not the REAL gnostic god. It's the fake one, which is exactly what they claim, and exactly why they claim it; "it's fake, don't follow it-- that's the problem with the world".

Anyway, take all that and roll it into paraoia and you have a rosicrucian.

On top of that, we attended their temple one night and we were horribly stoned. The temple essentially went like this: She plays music(can't see her) she rises and gives a lecture on sir galahad and the quest for the holy grail(union with god, what we were talking about above). Then she lowers again and plays music. Then she turns the music off and rises again, and starts talking about Harry potter(brrmmp). Anyway, she did this time and time again, and everytime she rose and fell I imagined slide whistle noises and I started laughing and my girlfriend started laughing because she thought she was playing the music herself because the first two instruments were solo music then the third was an orchestra, and I guess she was imagining her playing all the instruments by herself ;(
Anyway, they all got really embarassed because we didn't stop laughing and we never went there again because they talked about harry potter seriously.

I wanted to throw this in at the end for food for thought:

Nirvana means "Extinction" or "Oblivion". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana

Moksha is the hindu equivalent of nirvana.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moksha

I consider it all the same thing as Union with God.

Also, according to the gnostics, buddhists and alot of other people; 'heaven',as people commonly believe, is actually a lie. They attribute it to two things; first off they relate it with the Tibetan wheel of life and death, which is essentially a simple diagram of life and death. During life we live, then we die; in the death phase we go through a similar process of life, except the actual goal is dissolution of our old selves. Basically, at first we're in "Heaven" or Hell or wherever we believe we should be, then we begin to discover it is fake. Yada yada, eventually we get brought back to earth. Let me find a picture of the wheel...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wheel_life_01.jpg

Anyway, basically in the world of dialectics we are shot back and forth between life and death and rebirth until we acheive transcendence or union with god. If we don't acheive union with god, we die, suffer from delusions created by our auric being(sort of), wait for it to dissolve, then are sucked back to earth so we can try to transcend again. Union with God=True Heaven. I don't know why people would assume union with god entails them running around heaven on golden streets(which would have no value as gold I might add) being happy as hell about everything, seems like a pretty thick lie you tell to children.
__________________
NEVER
Reply With Quote
  #15  
DrGonzo DrGonzo is offline
Member
DrGonzo's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Savannah, Ga.
DrGonzo is probably a spambot
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 12:18 PM       
Hell is for children.
__________________
I Hate James Fortner and so should you.
http://www.verygeneric.com
Reply With Quote
  #16  
glowbelly glowbelly is offline
my baby's mama
glowbelly's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: cleveland
glowbelly is probably a spambot
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 02:07 PM       
hey! thanks for reading the thread before you posted your outstanding input! :D
__________________
porn is just babies as work-in-progress
Reply With Quote
  #17  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NO
kahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contest
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 04:07 PM       
A question I forgot to ask: If hell is oblivion, does that deny the concept of an eternal soul?
__________________
NEVER
Reply With Quote
  #18  
CrazyBlackDude CrazyBlackDude is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
CrazyBlackDude is probably a spambot
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 04:54 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
A question I forgot to ask: If hell is oblivion, does that deny the concept of an eternal soul?
It sure does!!!


Of course, all these headache-inducing questions are irrelevant considering religion is simply a bunch of fairytales.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
ItalianStereotype ItalianStereotype is offline
Legislacerator
ItalianStereotype's Avatar
Join Date: May 2002
Location: HELL, where all hot things are
ItalianStereotype is probably pretty okItalianStereotype is probably pretty okItalianStereotype is probably pretty okItalianStereotype is probably pretty okItalianStereotype is probably pretty ok
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 04:56 PM       
ooh, how controversial you are
__________________
I could just scream
Reply With Quote
  #20  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NO
kahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contest
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 05:24 PM       
"Of course, all these headache-inducing questions are irrelevant considering religion is simply a bunch of fairytales."

Actually most religions don't have any fairies in their stories, in fact, many have demonized fairies and consider them aspects of witchery(scientific name).
__________________
NEVER
Reply With Quote
  #21  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
Mocker
KevinTheOmnivore's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
KevinTheOmnivore is probably a spambot
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 05:31 PM       
You could probably consider angels to be overweight fairies.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Sethomas Sethomas is offline
Antagonistic Tyrannosaur
Sethomas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Abstruse Caboose
Sethomas is probably a spambot
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 05:42 PM       
Yes, but only one fairy can dance on the point of a needle.

As for the oblivion rendering a soul less eternal, I'd say that it doesn't, but the metaphysical reasons thereof are kind of weird. There's a philosophy called eternalism which was rendered into a scientific principle by Relativity, that dictates that all time exists simultaneously from an arbitrary vantage point. That's the main way in which I see the soul as being eternal in the first place; for that matter, today is eternal.
__________________

SETH ME IMPRIMI FECIT
Reply With Quote
  #23  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NO
kahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contest
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 05:45 PM       
Maybe they should get gastric bypass it's unhealthy to be that overweight. C*ULD GOD MAKE AN ANGLE SO FAT EVEN HE COULDN"T PERFORM OBESITY REDUCING SURGERY UPON IT? WE TEST THE LIMITS OF OMNIPOTENCY, EVERYDAY! PUSH THE ENVELOPE!

No but seriously folks I don't reccomend gastric bypass at all sure it will make you look less ugly but you could just stop eatting like a stupid fucking pig all the time because that's all the surgery does is reduce how much you eat.
__________________
NEVER
Reply With Quote
  #24  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NO
kahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contestkahljorn won the popularity contest
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 06:14 PM       
Most buddhists could be considered eternalists, I suppose. Reaching nirvana places you outside of the functioning of time. Ironically Samsara, or the cycle of life and death is, etymologically considered, "All flowing together". (Sorry to keep talking about buddhism, by the way).

"that dictates that all time exists simultaneously from an arbitrary vantage point. That's the main way in which I see the soul as being eternal in the first place; for that matter, today is eternal"

I can understand this, especially since all of time is obviously linked through causation, all of time causes all of time. However, from an arbitrary view-point in which you see time as simotaneous it's also possible you'd see objects(or space) as simotaneous, by which i mean they would be the same object. The basic explaination I can give for this is that, through causation, every object effects every other object. This would be more like saying, "The soul of the universe is eternal, and you are a part of the universe".
How would heaven manifest out of this? What do you think heaven is?

P.S. I read up on eternalism... Everything I've read at seems to indicate that eternalism is a type of Semantic, basically, a logical model for looking at existence. Essentially it's highlighting the need to look at problems objectively while including the "Fourth dimension"(time). I see how it became a scientific principle, based on that premise alone. I didn't really find any "Philosophies" regarding it, though.
__________________
NEVER
Reply With Quote
  #25  
ziggytrix ziggytrix is offline
Mocker
ziggytrix's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: i come from the water
ziggytrix is probably a spambot
Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 09:37 PM       
It bugs me that hallucinogin induced "revalations" (by which I mean paranoid or blissful delusions discounted upon regaining sobriety) sound like Buddhist and Gnostic concepts. :/
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

   


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:02 PM.


© 2008 I-Mockery.com
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.