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  #51  
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Old Jan 5th, 2009, 06:51 PM       
This would be all over already if I had my bunny army.
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 12:29 AM       
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djuAh5D26nw
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 06:57 AM       
Yeah, I hate Israelis, support Hamas and also Hate Arabs. Your biggest problem Abcdx (apart from putting words in people's mouths and deciding what they believe for them) is that you've got your cause and effect around backwards.

Hamas isn't the root of all the problems, it's the cycle of violence that moves what would otherwise be ordinary, normal, working people to become enraged and want vengeance. Hamas wouldn't exist, or at least, wouldn't be politically important if the Palestinian people didn't feel threatened, and didn't feel the need to defend themselves in such a way. Yes, Hamas manipulates people and is a hugely negative force in people's lives, but they came into power based on a fear of Israel.

Even if this attack did manage to destroy Hamas, the Palestinian people will still hate Israel, most likely even more people will be driven to revenge. They'll just create another Hamas.

I think it's absurd to think that excalating the violence will solve things. Since it hasn't really worked in the past. I mean, it might. Killing every single Palestinian would probably go a long way to reducing rocket attacks. But that's not very adult, right?
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 06:59 AM       
Also,
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 09:28 AM       
I don't know, but aren't you the one concerned about a proportionate response? That would mean you're okay with Israel sending about 6000 rockets randomely into Gaza, and blowing up a civilian bus. Nobody is putting words in your mouth, you're just not connecting your own dots.

Hamas didn't originate out of fear of Israel. It may sound good, but it's false. It's also insulting to suggest Palestinians found religion only out of fear of Israel, which is what you are inadvertantly implying. Look into the origins of Hamas. It predates the intifada, and even predates Israel's initial support for the group.

Likewise, you are aware pogroms against Jews in the region predate modern Israel, and formalized Zionism right? Israel isn't the source of hatred, it's just an excuse.

Unfortunately, there has never been peace in the Mid-East without an escalation in violence, the likes of which the Palestinian Arabs have never engaged in.
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 12:34 PM       
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It's not about land, or religion. It's about tolerance.
no, it is about religion and the stupid things people do because of a few verses from an old fairy tale
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 01:16 PM       
The original founding PLO members were not religiously based, and included both Christians and Muslims.

The majority of Israel today is secular, and the largest Zionist movements including the most recent, were not religious.

Take away the eligious arguments, and you still have an argument.
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 04:27 PM       
It has to be about religion. Because the Palestinians are oppressed in Jordan even though they're the majority. But they don't care about the Jordanians shitting on them do they?

Maybe they're just pawns in someone elses strategy?
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 04:35 PM       
Come on people, it's about power. Don't kid yourselves.
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 04:40 PM       
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Maybe they're just pawns in someone elses strategy?
That is exactly it.

Well. Willing pawns. Using religion is just a motivational aspect of this strategy.
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 04:58 PM       
religion has always been a tool of those in power. the basis of the conflict is that two religions claim the same little shitty strip of sand as their cultural point of origin. it doesn't matter if the people controlling the armies believe or not, and they probably don't, if the people actually fighting the fight think they are fighting on the side of god.
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 08:03 PM       
Serious question for abcdxxxx: Why do you think the Israelis didn't do more to curtail Hamas throughout its history? Surely there were segments of the Israeli power structure who could have forseen that a bottom-up, grassroots religious movement who took great care to eliminate internal corruption would become a far more formidable opponent than the crumbling, hated and notoriously corrupt Fatah party?

On a larger scale, wouldn't you agree that true socialism is vastly preferable to the absolutely insane division of wealth and the islamofascist paradigm nurtured by the west ever since the third reich sent advisors to cairo?
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 08:52 PM       
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religion has always been a tool of those in power. the basis of the conflict is that two religions claim the same little shitty strip of sand as their cultural point of origin. it doesn't matter if the people controlling the armies believe or not, and they probably don't, if the people actually fighting the fight think they are fighting on the side of god.
Someone told you that's the basis of the conflict, or you watched a CNN special....but that doesn't make it true. Israel was established in 1948, and existed for about 20 years without Jerusalem or it's holiest sites. Hebron is the second holiest site in the bible, and Israel will be unilaterally handing it over to Arab control, since it has been an Arab dominated town ever since they ran Jews out during the pogroms in 1929.

You may also be unaware that the religious parties in Israel have always been exempt from fighting, and until recently did not serve in the army.
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 08:59 PM       
There is far more important things going on in the world than this ongoing bullshit. Like the eminent doom of every one younger than me.
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 09:24 PM       
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Serious question for abcdxxxx: Why do you think the Israelis didn't do more to curtail Hamas throughout its history?
Israel's always had a bunch of nutjobs in the government who were desperate to make peace in the most self defeating manner possible. So at the time it was illegal to even negotiate with the PLO, there were groups like Peace Now pushing to find Arab leadership amongst the Arabs who would act as peace partners, and still have some control.

Initially the shortsighted idea was that religion would be a good influence on the Palestinians, and that Israel could help bolster some opposition to the Marxist revolutionary splinter groups under Arafat & Co. The support was very short lived, and Hamas turned out to be a monster.... but it's all relative. Marwan Barghouti is a name Israel still dances around as a possible moderate they can support...and he's in an Israeli jail.

I don't realy have an answer for you, because I suppose your question is meant to suggest that Israel allowed Hamas to rise to power purposely so that the Palestinians would adopt the most extreme leadership possible. I'm sure that was one of the 1000 strategies tossed around and never commited to along the way. In between world outrage over targeted killings of Hamas spiritual leaders, etc. What more could they have done? How should they be handling Islamic Jihad for example? Or the more regional problem of Muslim Brotherhood for that matter?


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On a larger scale, wouldn't you agree that true socialism is vastly preferable to the absolutely insane division of wealth and the islamofascist paradigm nurtured by the west ever since the third reich sent advisors to cairo?
Actually that happened the other way around. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem went to Germany, and advised on their Jewish problem.

Who was offering a true Socialism though?
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Old Jan 6th, 2009, 09:26 PM       
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There is far more important things going on in the world than this ongoing bullshit. Like the eminent doom of every one younger than me.
Right, but The Left, Jimmy Carter, and the UN all claim this is the forbidden topic nobody talks about.
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Old Jan 7th, 2009, 12:20 AM       
I'm not convinced. I still think this is either the single most tragic case of blowback in the entire region, or, more cynically, an attempt to divide and de-legitimize the Palestinian government in the eyes of the world.

If the Muslim Brotherhood is one of the largest regional threats to Israel, why would Israel actively, though mostly indirectly, support it's Palestinian front organization al-mujama, that would eventually become Hamas?

It seems to me that those in power on either side care not the least about the people actually dying: Israeli generals and politicians don't care any more about their own people than Hamas care about theirs, just so long as they're the ones winning.
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Old Jan 7th, 2009, 01:07 AM       
It was the peacenik Leftist Israelis who vaguely supported Hamas, just as they supported Arafat. The great blowback would be the outcome of Oslo, where Israel provided the PA with guns, and training only to have it turned back on them. Hamas was not built up by Israel, unless you consider the 70+ trucks of aid meant to go to Palestinians as somehow supporting Hamas. http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/Art...651783,00.html

None of these so called Palestinian groups should have ever been legitimized in the first place.

The divisive climate within the Palestinian factions traces outside the conflict. It's not an Israeli fabrication or manipulation, even though Israel has thought they could use it to their advantage at times. Pan-Arabism has never worked for obvious reasons.
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Old Jan 7th, 2009, 04:12 AM       
Begin and Shamir were Prime Minister during the formative years of Hamas, both members of right wing political parties.
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Old Jan 7th, 2009, 10:04 AM       
I'm not saying that Hamas was created recently because of Israeli attacks, I was implying that they have political weight because of Israeli attacks.

Jews might have been a target for past hatred, and Israel might have just been an excuse for that hatred, and probably still is to an extent, but you said yourself that it's not about religion, and that Jews and Arabs are capable of getting along together.
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Old Jan 7th, 2009, 01:18 PM       
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Begin and Shamir were Prime Minister during the formative years of Hamas, both members of right wing political parties.
That's incorrect. Israel has it's first unity Government in 1984...and the name Peres is absent from your list. Sure, Wiki says Islamic Resistance Movement/Islamic Center started in 1973, but that's not entirely true. It's like Al-Banna and Qutb never existed, though Yassin quoted them almost exclusively, and was a formal member of the Muslim Brotherhood. In effect, what became Hamas started as a Gaza chapter, funded by Saudi, Kuwati and Jordanian money.


Begin introduced the original plan to create a Palestinian Gaze State sometime around 1975'ish.... but that was also the same period when Peace Now organized, and introduced their iniatives, which are basically what we got stuck with. Peace Now pushed for negotiations, when there was nobody to negotiate with. The Palestinians had no leadership, and nobody in their right mind would have pretended the 10,000 members of the PLFP represented 600,000 refugees interests when they sought to overthrow the entire neighborhood.
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Old Jan 7th, 2009, 01:40 PM       
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I'm not saying that Hamas was created recently because of Israeli attacks, I was implying that they have political weight because of Israeli attacks.
Israeli attacks have little to do with the Hamas rise of power. Gaza was Islamicized back during the early 80's. Look into the Islamic University actions in 1980.

The idea that a sovereign nation fighting guerilla armies who seek to overthrow only strengthens militant terrorists is just a spin. You were questioning why Israel even allowed Hamas to get to this point, which is a good example of Israel being damned if they do, or damned if they don't. Mind you, it was your theory that kept Arafat out of Israel targets.

See, the tendency to think Israel is masterminding, and pulling the puppet strings from both sides is a bit silly. In truth, they've really just made bad choices in the face of unparallaled scrutiny. They've always doublt dealt with enemies, and tried to be shrewd...as have the Arabs on the other end.

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Jews might have been a target for past hatred, and Israel might have just been an excuse for that hatred, and probably still is to an extent, but you said yourself that it's not about religion, and that Jews and Arabs are capable of getting along together.
Well remember, Islam was politicized and went through a reformation, which is the real roots of a group like Hamas. The Pan-Arab/Pan-Islam program attempted to create a common enemy to bind them.
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Old Jan 7th, 2009, 06:49 PM       
How exactly were the Left involved with the approval, under Menachem Begin, of Yassin's application to start the "humanitarian" organization Mujama?

You mention the Islamic University of Gaza, which was Islamicized only after an administrative coup, aided by Israeli authorities, who then tacitly permitted its use as a training grounds and armory for suicide bombers and anti-secular thugs. It's inaccurate to say that the radical muslim brotherhood enjoyed widespread support at this point in time.
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Old Jan 7th, 2009, 10:41 PM       
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How exactly were the Left involved with the approval, under Menachem Begin, of Yassin's application to start the "humanitarian" organization Mujama?

Care to substantiate that statement? I think you're mistaking Jordan's role as Israel's, so if you're going to implicate Israel's role beyond humanitarian aid you're going to have to give some evidence. Hamas registered with Israel as an Islamic Association, and Israel supported it passively. That's all we know.

It was Israel's peaceniks who pushed for ties to Palestinian groups while Begin's government formally attempted a different approach, such as his rejected plan offering Gaza up back in the 70's.


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You mention the Islamic University of Gaza, which was Islamicized only after an administrative coup, aided by Israeli authorities
Where'd you get that idea?

It's unlikely you would have supported Israel closing a school down, especially a religious school, the way they did with Birzeit University. I'm also not going to validate the idea that not intervening is the equivalent of perpetrating or aiding the act. There was no indication any group would prove to be more hostile then Fatah, and it's militant wing didn't arrive until 5 years later. The UNRWA is the only foreign body which has support Hamas continously, not Israel.

See, Sadat punished the Palestinians by cutting them off from his Universities. Long before Islamic University was "Islamicized" (terminology which didn't even exist at the time), turned into a militant hotbed, Gaza has become a hotbed of religious extremist thugs enforcing a street vigilante version of Sharia law.
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