Turkey's 180

[Systemz]

we're talking about the threat of a systematic cultural warfare. A strategical immigration movement can not be seen as anything but a threat

I'm sorry, are you saying that immigration into the EU is strategic? What is this, Invasion of the Body Snatchers? Its not like these folks are immigrating because its what their national governments told them to, and one day they're going to replace all the white people in one fell swoop.
And just what the hell is "cultural warfare"? More thai restaurants? The growth of knowledge about cultures beyond our own? Spouting things like "cultural warfare" has been a tool of the elites to raise up public opinion. "Cultural warfare" is what Hitler espoused when he was sending people to the death chamber. Sure - there are criminal organizations of non-whites in most major Judeo-Christian cities nowadays, but much of that stems from a repeated ghettoization by the majority, who is too busy hurling out "cultural warfare" to attend to the needs of an immigrant population that brings considerable skill to the table.
As for my Berlin wall analogy, if you were talking about culture, you should have specified yourself - you spoke that everyone "fears" change. Even if people fear "cultural change", broadly defined as a fundamental shift in the mores, practices and beliefs of a people, it does not discount the fact that change is coming, and the best thing you can do is adapt. Egypt has been constantly assailed by its position in Africa, the Mediterranean, and Islam. Still, it persists as distinct from all three. Any country that felt the brushstroke of colonization knows all too well the "cultural warfare" that the western powers inflicted on them. Making your comments as you do, you show the sort of paternal, euro-male-dominated viewpoint held by Mr. Kipling. If these cultures that enter into other countries are a threat to the well-being and prosperity of European culture, the existence of the EU is invalidated. Countries like Britain that were reluctant to join the EU feared a loss of control - of their destiny and culture. They joined anyway - because the economic benefits outweighed the fear of loss of culture. An area as particularly distinct as Europe - with such a tight conglomeration of language and custom - learned to work within their existing structures to allow for growth and change. To exclude people from participation in that framework is to marginalize and discriminate against them. You don't see waves of Belgians swimming across the channel - the freedom of movement the EU provides is a function of its liberal philosophy. And it works - more or less. And it will grow. And get better. And it will get better not only by changes in its original nations but by new ideas and concepts brought to it by its new nations. Change isn't always growth or progress, but if you design your system - hell, your individual life - around adaptation you've got a helluva better chance of surviving and growing from that.[/quote]

[Systemz]

we're talking about the threat of a systematic cultural warfare. A strategical immigration movement can not be seen as anything but a threat

I'm sorry, are you saying that immigration into the EU is strategic? What is this, Invasion of the Body Snatchers? Its not like these folks are immigrating because its what their national governments told them to, and one day they're going to replace all the white people in one fell swoop.
And just what the hell is "cultural warfare"? More thai restaurants? The growth of knowledge about cultures beyond our own? Spouting things like "cultural warfare" has been a tool of the elites to raise up public opinion. "Cultural warfare" is what Hitler espoused when he was sending people to the death chamber. Sure - there are criminal organizations of non-whites in most major Judeo-Christian cities nowadays, but much of that stems from a repeated ghettoization by the majority, who is too busy hurling out "cultural warfare" to attend to the needs of an immigrant population that brings considerable skill to the table.
As for my Berlin wall analogy, if you were talking about culture, you should have specified yourself - you spoke that everyone "fears" change. Even if people fear "cultural change", broadly defined as a fundamental shift in the mores, practices and beliefs of a people, it does not discount the fact that change is coming, and the best thing you can do is adapt. Egypt has been constantly assailed by its position in Africa, the Mediterranean, and Islam. Still, it persists as distinct from all three. Any country that felt the brushstroke of colonization knows all too well the "cultural warfare" that the western powers inflicted on them. Making your comments as you do, you show the sort of paternal, euro-male-dominated viewpoint held by Mr. Kipling. If these cultures that enter into other countries are a threat to the well-being and prosperity of European culture, the existence of the EU is invalidated. Countries like Britain that were reluctant to join the EU feared a loss of control - of their destiny and culture. They joined anyway - because the economic benefits outweighed the fear of loss of culture. An area as particularly distinct as Europe - with such a tight conglomeration of language and custom - learned to work within their existing structures to allow for growth and change. To exclude people from participation in that framework is to marginalize and discriminate against them. You don't see waves of Belgians swimming across the channel - the freedom of movement the EU provides is a function of its liberal philosophy. And it works - more or less. And it will grow. And get better. And it will get better not only by changes in its original nations but by new ideas and concepts brought to it by its new nations. Change isn't always growth or progress, but if you design your system - hell, your individual life - around adaptation you've got a helluva better chance of surviving and growing from that.

[Abcdxxxx]

"Countries like Britain that were reluctant to join the EU feared a loss of control - of their destiny and culture. "


Repeat that five times and realize you should have stopped there. Could you be any more cliche? Oh "the Berlin Wall", oh "that's what Hitler said". We're talking about Turkey...and we're talking about immigration issues with the EU right????? Seems to me my argument was to downplay the issues of race in the fears of the EU, but then you argue that it's very much about race, and start claiming my arguments ethnocentric. Say what? I'm not sure when this became about me expressing MY "paternal, Euro-male dominated viewpoint". I don't recall expressing these fears as my own at any point. Get a grip. Really, who are you kidding. The influx of immigrants from Arab league nations are not going to stay in Turkey are they? No they're heading for London and Paris. "Cultural warfare" is an often misused term co-opted by those you disdain, but it it's not a fictional concept. (Japan's a perfect example. Don't tell me they're not putting secret messages in those Sanrio toys).

How is anything Hitler said relevant here?? If we're specifically talking about the religious Islamic community then they (or the more outspoken of the bunch) have indeed declared their desires and plans to wage a war on a cultural lifestyle...haven't they? The history of Islam suggests an ability to go from minority to majority while wiping out advanced civilizations entirely in the process. When did the Jews and Gypsys (etc.) of Germany ever plan to do such a thing? Justify your comments.

[BombsBurstingInAir]

Reagan made the wall come down.

[Systemz]

Go Ronnie Go.
I Wish Nixon had taken the wall down. If Realpolitik had won, the world would be so much more 1984.

And as for YOU, abcd, the reason people keep bringing up cliches is because they're true. And your cultural warfare idea is bullshit. Immigrants from developing states have a right to retain their culture if it doesn't harm their host country, just as I have the right to mark down my religious affiliation as "jedi" if I want to. Your claims to be downplaying the issue of race you should quit talking about "systematic cultural warfare". If the EU isn't threatened by the influx of race into their borders, what are they afraid of? The cooking? People taking the jobs Europeans can't bear to do? Honest folk who work hard, destroying the total lack of competition that Europe has enjoyed for the past 50 years? So if its not economic, is it social? Are Euros afraid of hearing another language on their streets? Music they haven't heard? For a supposedly cosmopolitan atmosphere you're casting Europeans as about as emancipated as North Korea. If they so fear the influx of Arab nationals into their soil, they should think about the fact that Islam has had a pretty decent time of it in North America - remember that not a single American national was a perpetrator in 9/11. They were Saudis, mostly. So if you're worried about their borders, tell 'em to tighten their visa system, not immigration. And I think anytime you start talking about a group of people who are infecting and altering a once-proud society I can pretty much refer to Hitler - certainly that's what he was talking about in Mein Kampf? So now we've got ourselves an International Islamic Conspiracy. That's what they must be chanting in those mosques! Secret code!
Islam has a proud and honest history. Prior to the colonial era, Islam was one of the most vibrant and advanced civilizations in the world. Hell, they even read Aristotle and Plato! It wasn't until Marcus Aurelius rediscovered the classics via Muslim-dominated Spain that we got on the road to the rennaisance. If you want to look at a religion well-suited to conquest and destruction, how about we look at Christianity? Crusades, anyone? I don't see Tunisian tanks lined up on the shores, ready to attack France at a moment's notice. A few fundamentalists and crazies get a piece of the pie in every culture - simply because the West has turned to Islam to be the bad guy now that the USSR is in tatters doesn't mean the scenario's any different - now we've got the Green Menace, instead of the Red. It's all bullshit to drum up support and contain the population by fear.

[GAsux]

I like Turkey.

[Systemz]

I like it with gravy.
And mashed potatoes.
My family deep-fried the Turkey at christmas.

[Abcdxxxx]

A) They're afraid of change. Even you agreed. Change is not dependant on racial quotas alone, but obviously that's the only aspect you think has meaning. When one speaks of a cultural movement it's not always racial. I have to go get my Fidel poster framed, I don't have time for this shit.
B) How about immigrants with a vocalized plan to "harm their host country"?
C) That American Nationals weren't involved in 9/11 doesn't clear illegals nor does it prove North America is a tranquil bed of racial equality where Islam thrives in peace. Are you really naive enough to believe American Nationals of various races had no involvement?
D) They chant prayes in masques, but they're not even bothering to use "secret code" when they preach the blueprints for a dreamt up holy war. It's only a conspiracy theory to the ignorant, and while these sentiments aren't represntative of EVERY Muslim, they are often ingrained on the teachings. Most Islamic terror cells were seeded at a masque.
E) You're the only one here invoking the spirit of Mein Kampf with the usage of words like "infecting" and "altering" a "once proud people" to describe the topic, let alone relate it to Hitler.
F) Turkey's still the wild west, and they're going to take a huge role in whatever nightmare goes down out there.