May 6th, 2004, 06:17 PM
Abcdxx, don't blame me for how poorly you expressed yourself.
"Would these Iraqi's have been tortured by Americans if the chambers didn't exist in the first place?"
Not to put to fine a point on it, but sure. I think the maain reason we are actually over there, as opposed to reasons that might possibly justify us being there, have to do with W. issue with his father and a Neo con jones to flex a little muscle. I don't think any reason we're there has diddly squat to do with Sadaams record of human rights and I think your a baboon if you think there is a relationship.
" Do nothings like yourself"
Oh, oh, the sting. Here's what you know about what I do. Zippo.
"This type of stuff goes on every day unreported, and nobody shows much outrage. "
"Good people and their outrage obviously isn't enough."
Okay, A.) pick an argument, and B.) What's your point? Good people and their outrrage and their money and their lobbying and their votes may be inefectual in the force of lack of compassion, corporate greed and colonialsim, but it's a hell of a lot better than nothing. What have you got in mind, a children's crusade? What exactly would you suggest I 'do', as opposed to being a 'do nothing'. What, exactly do you 'do' about it?
'None of the above seemed to stop what happened. '
Again, what's your suggestion, apart from prolonged mutual wars of attrition.
"Okay, so our corn fed American kids put their own spin on it, and added in some College broomstick up the ass hazing to the mix."
"Putting the act in the context of hazing doesn't mean I'm writing it off as merely a hazing incident"
Again, don't blame me for how poorly you expressed yourself. And for the record, I don't think these folks thought they were towel snapping. Towel snapping and jumping on naked people and beating people to death fall in to different categories. I do not think the cornfed youngsters who did this thought it was all in good fun. I think also that they were encouraged to do it, and I promise you, if that's the case, the intelligence officers who asked that the prisoners be 'softened' don't think of themselves as frat boys even a little. At the very moment you are arguing that this needs to be seen in the continuum of barbaric human behavior, you keep mentioning that it's really not so bad when stacked up against other stuff. Well, yes. So what? It's your assumption other people don't care about Rwandans with their hands cut off and Israelis blown to bits on busses. In a lot of cases your right. I think George bush couldn't possibly care less and I think Sharon doesn't loose much sleep over the deaths of Palestinians or wonders if they were terrorists or not.
"That wasn't my argument, but It should be considered regardless because there is some merit to it."
That wasn't My argument, I just want to write it down a few times and reinforce it becuase I think it has merit but iit's not My argument I just think I'll say it again. It kind of sounds like your argument. C'mon, it's sorta your argument, I mean, you like it a little, right? Your not dating that argument, but youy wouldn't shove it out of bed for eating crackers, would you?
"putting Saddam into context with these events is meant to be an excuse,"
So... what is it, then? It's not an argument, it's not an excuse, it's... what exactly? Are you saying that if I want to feel revulsion for what we did I need to make some kind of official document of every political act of repression taking place on earth that I also find repellent? Is that something you do? I've written about a lot of shit that makes me sick. I write the most about the stuff done in my name as an american citizen. You don't have to agree, but that's the stuff that gets me the most, when bad shit happens and my money went to it and the leader of my country is saying "Hey, I did this for us!" I think that puts the blood on my hands, and that makes it more urgent to me. Do you think your teaching me something about the abominabal things people do to each other? Blow me.
"We shouldn't minimize what Saddam did, and what happened in Flallujah, because they set the tone for the lack of humanity on that ground. We may have tortured them, but Saddam built the torture chamber. "
That argument depends entirely on the idea that our being there is in some way connected with Sadaams brutality, which is utterly bogus. We armed him, we supported him actively when he was killing people we wanted him to kill, and we turned our backs quite happily on his torture chambers, and when we can't get a good confession out of our current prisoners we eexport them to allies who are more willing to torture than we are. Does objecting to what Saddam did minimize Hitler and Pol Pot becuase they were worse? Why not? Are you saying the real estate makes the difference? YOU see this as minimizing Sadaam, not me, bucko. Your desire to equate the two minimizes what we are doing.
"Any weird dreams you wanna confess to?"
No, actually. I was saying that sending young men and women into a war zone and asking them to kill people while they wonder if their going to die makes some of them go fucking nuts. It's a real good reason not to do it unless you have no choice at all. Why? Do you think any of these people would have towel snapped the way they did if they'd stayed home? I'm guessing not.
"We have to give money, and get tangled up in their crimes before they become comparable?"
Comparable? No. Culpable? Yes. I think there are a lot of ways we might effect human rights in the world far more effectively then sending our war machine in and preempting the shit out of them. So far it ain't working.
"Our occupation is like sending your kid to a public school cafeteria and making him eat macrobiotic. "
I'm sorry, maybe it's me, but that metaphor completly escapes me. Got any wierd eating disorders you want to confess to?
"My point is that this shit goes on all over, and nobody stops it"
Okay, A.) How do we 'stop' it, and how is that an argument for not objecting in the strongest possible way to bad shit we do?
" you think I was trying to downplay or rationalize this."
Hmmm, now, where would I get that idea
"I'm saying there are horrible things on a far greater scale going on everywhere,"
Oh, right there.
"it's pretty emberassing that Americans like yourself only care when our zipper gets caught in the act."
Excuse me, what do you know about 'american's like me' and their zippers? Embarassing? What do you mean by that?
"It's because we allow attoricities to continue daily, and either do nothing, or wait till it's nearly to late, and then argue wether or not it's even our place to step in and do anything, that such inhuman behavior exists in the world. "
Again, what are you suggesting? If I'm 'do nothing' what does a 'johnny action man' like you have in mind? 'Cause the white Man's Burden didn't work so well last time around.
"That it's wrong to look at these events, and talk of them in the same vain as Me Lai, because it belittles what's going on."
How? Because in this case we've only killed 14 people? Stop it now, make a big a fucking stink as possible and maybe we won't. I think you using phrases like towel snapping, hazing, and getting your jointstuck in the zipper belittles it. Oh, I know you're four square against all that shit, but it's not like hazing is murder. The comparison is belittling.
"AMERICA! WE TORTURE YOU WAY LESS!"
|
Linear Mode
