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phnompehn phnompehn is offline
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 06:07 PM        Anne Frank: "Loser"
Most people, after reading the following article, would have renewed faith in the U.S. since it makes us look freer (Is that even a word? It's like saying "equaler"). It makes me realize what a bad rut we're really in. We go after a shmuck oil barron in the desert, while we sit idly by and let this happen:

-------------------------------------------------------

If Anne Frank Only Knew ...

Feb. 26, 2004

(CBS) If you want to hear "hate" coming out of the mouths of school kids, go to the schools of North Korea, as a Dutch television crew did, and you'll hear hate from that country's teenagers directed at the United States.

Western television reporters rarely get into North Korea, but remarkably they let a Dutch television crew in to see how they're using Holland's most famous book, “The Diary of Anne Frank.”

That diary, of her life in hiding during World War II, is now being studied in North Korea's schools. But Anne Frank's plea for peace and freedom got lost in translation.

North Korea is using her diary, not to teach how Anne suffered at the hands of the German Nazis, but to warn the students how they could suffer at the hands of those they call "American Nazis." Correspondent Mike Wallace reports. ”After reading this book, I had a hatred for the American imperialists,” says one student.

“That warmonger Bush is just as bad as Hitler. Because of him we will always live in fear of war,” says another student.

But Anne Frank did not preach hate. Her diary is an enchanting, if horrific, day-by-day account of the time this Dutch teenager and her Jewish family spent hiding from the Germans who had invaded and occupied Holland.

Anne, her parents and sister hid in a small apartment in an attic in Amsterdam for more than two years. A bookcase concealed their secret stairway, but the Nazis eventually discovered them, and Anne died in a concentration camp when she was only 15.

Now, Anne Frank's house is a shrine to the courage she displayed, and the fear she lived with, under Hitler. Her diary has been translated into more than a 100 languages. Most recently, it was published in North Korea, where it's now part of the curriculum in their junior high schools.

Anne's plea for peace is a curious message for these students, because North Korea is constantly preparing for war. Dictator Kim Jong Il spends the country's meager resources maintaining a powerful military. And it turns out that North Korea is using Anne's diary to tell students they must sacrifice for the military -- because war with America is inevitable.

“The Americans enjoy war. It excites them. It's part of their nature,” says one student.

Here, they teach that today's Nazis are the Americans – and that today's Hitler is George W. Bush. And, to hammer that home, whenever North Korean students refer to President Bush, or to other Americans, they're taught to call them “Nazis,” or “warmongers."

“As long as the warmonger Bush and the Nazi Americans live, who are worse than Hitler's fascists, world peace will be impossible to achieve,” says another student.

But of course, that bellicose message runs counter to what Anne wrote in her diary: “You will understand that here in the attic, the desperate question is often asked: Why, oh why, go to war? Why can't people live in peace and why must we destroy everything?”

Why do the North Korean student think there are still wars in the world? “Because the cruel Americans want war,” replies one student. All this came as a shock to Miriam Bartelsman, the reporter from Dutch television who received rare permission to come to the capital city of Pyongyang to see how North Korea is using Anne's diary.

For her report, she was allowed to talk with students about what they're learning from the book. After returning to Amsterdam, she told us that North Korea is simply turning Anne's message on its head.

“Anne Frank's diary is a big plea or a big cry for freedom, and for peace. But I think in North Korea, the diary is being used to promote war,” says Bartelsman.

These students sympathize with Anne, but according to Bartelsman, they do not respect her.

“She didn't win. She was not a hero, and North Korea, they are learning, the children, we all want to be a hero, and we don't want to be killed,” says Bartelsman.

‘We know that Nazi America is certain to start a war with us, but we will win that war,” says one student.

“Our students will fight with a pen in one hand and a weapon in the other until the last American is dead,” adds another student.

These youngsters parrot the words of North Korea's deputy minister of education, who uses Anne's diary to teach students that North Korea's top priority is to build a stronger military to defeat the Americans.

And to make sure the students give that same answer, Dutch television caught one teacher whispering to her students, telling them just what to say to the Dutch reporter.

Teacher:: Say that we don't want war, but that that is impossible as long as our enemy lives. So for us war is inevitable. We are not going to beg for peace. Instead, we must crush our enemy without mercy.

Student: You should not beg for peace. As long as the imperialists live, there will be no end to war.

“The most shocking thing is their comparison for President Bush with Hitler. that is absolutely disgusting,” says Anne’s cousin, Buddy Elias, who was her playmate and her last living direct relative.

Elias was the one who approved giving North Korea the rights to publish her diary, for a symbolic payment of less than $2,000.

“We were not told that it would be misused in schools. That, we had no idea,” says Elias, who considers today’s Hitler to be Kim Jong-Il, North Korea’s supreme leader. Kim insists that whenever anyone mentions his name, they must first call him respected or beloved. And, in North Korea, teachers don't decide what their students will read. Those instructions come down from the top.

Why do the students think they were asked to read this diary? “According to our respected leader Kim Jung Il, the “Diary of Anne Frank” is one of the great classics of the world,” says one student. “That is why we read the diary -- out of great respect for our leader Kim Jung Il.”

“Our respected Gen. Kim Jung Il, with his warm and caring love for us students, gives us different foreign literature every year in hope that we can expand our intellectual development,” adds another student. “The ‘Diary of Anne Frank’ is part of that.”

In North Korea, all art, all music, all pageants are created to praise Kim Jong Il or his father, Kim Il-Sung, North Korea's first leader.

But while these children of the elite sing of their leader in Pyongyang, youngsters in the countryside are starving, reveal pictures that were smuggled out of North Korea by a German doctor. According to the World Food Program, almost half of North Korea's children, under the
age of 7, suffer from chronic malnutrition. But not the children of the establishment in Pyongyang.

“I’m certain that thanks to our beloved Gen. Kim Jung Il, we will never experience hunger like Anne did,” says one boy.

Another student read from the diary: “Why is there hunger when food rots away elsewhere? Why are people so crazy?”

When Bartelsman asked students if they could answer Anne's question, again their teacher told them just what to say: “Why isn't food distributed everywhere? Because the imperialist bourgeoisie take it -- that's why there is nothing left for the proletariat. Just say that.”

The student’s response: “Food is taken by the imperialist bourgeoisie, which is why there is nothing left for the proletariat.” Apparently, these students don't know that in
their socialist paradise, up to a million people are now held in slave labor camps. But thanks to Anne Frank, they do know a lot about Nazi concentration camps.

Do they think that concentration camps like that still exist?

“Yes, I think such camps still exist. As long as there are American Nazis, there will be secret places where innocent people are murdered,” says one student. “Places like that exist in America. The prisons in America are comparable to concentration camps.”

And apparently, these students have learned what they were supposed to learn from Anne Frank's diary: When war with America comes, don't be a loser like her.

Could they live in hiding the way that Anne and her family did? “No,” says one student. “I would go and fight, instead of living like a beggar as Anne did.”

“For world peace, America will have to be destroyed,” adds another student. “Only then, will Anne's wonderful dream of peace come true.”
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 07:19 PM       
Here here!
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 08:04 PM       
Quote:
“The Americans enjoy war. It excites them. It's part of their nature,” says one student.
Damn right, I have a boner huge enough to prop a machine gun on.
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 08:06 PM       
So you are saying we should have attacked N. Korea because of what they are teaching their school children?
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 08:09 PM       
No, I'm just saying that the whole Iraq thing shouldn't be dominating us right now since we're sucking. We've basically won, and are just cleaning up now. If anything, Bush could actually make himself look like a hero if this came more into the spotlight and he did something, or at least anything.

[edit]
Let me put it this way. What is Kim doing now that Saddam wasn't a year ago?
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 08:19 PM       
Yeah, but you see, the U.S. only attacks countries that can't even do minimal harm. An attack on North Korea could be potentially devastating to any army because every citizen is a soldier.
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 08:21 PM       
That really doesn't make the case for the US much better. That's just a brand new reason we suck.
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 08:32 PM       
"Yeah, but you see, the U.S. only attacks countries that can't even do minimal harm. An attack on North Korea could be potentially devastating to any army because every citizen is a soldier." - Chimp

There isn't much North Korea can do except attack South korea and that would only mean the end of their existance.

I still don't understand what phen wants us to do?
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 08:36 PM       
Iraq, 2003:

WMDs - We thought so
Oppressed People - Yes
Insane Dictator - Sadistic, probably insane
Hoardes of Extremist Followers - Yes

North Korea, 2004:

WMDs/Nuclear Arms - Check, self-admitted
Massive Hunger/Oppressed People - Check
Insane Dictator - Check
Hoardes of Extremist Followers - Check


My point:
Why are we nearly completely ignoring a country that presents more of a risk than Iraq has for the last decade?
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 08:39 PM       
what he wants us to do, or what I believe he wants us to do, is to be warned that the North Koreans have little reading skill when it comes to anaylzing books and such.

I agree that politicans are screwing this country over.
I have heard from countless Military advisors and such that we should start preparing for a defense, or military action against North Korea. Beefing up the military in Japan, and such. But like Pearl Harbor before, the higher ups ignore the military advisors.


Edit: Forgot Genocide in that list, and Oil.
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 08:54 PM       
Nuke 'em. There are enough uber-patriot glory boys in the military to go wherever Uncle Sam sends them. I say turn them loose and let them destroy whatever psychotic little country they want.
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 09:10 PM       
"My point:
Why are we nearly completely ignoring a country that presents more of a risk than Iraq has for the last decade?" - phen

Ok, now I understand.

With Iraq there were 11 and 1/2 years of diplomatic attempts to try to get Saddam to provide proof that he had destroyed his WMD. We have just begun diplomacy with Nortn Korea.
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 10:19 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Raygun
"My point:
Why are we nearly completely ignoring a country that presents more of a risk than Iraq has for the last decade?" - phen

Ok, now I understand.

With Iraq there were 11 and 1/2 years of diplomatic attempts to try to get Saddam to provide proof that he had destroyed his WMD. We have just begun diplomacy with Nortn Korea.
Bullshit. Dubya Industries, Inc., wanted proof that he had them, not that he had destroyed them. And you know that. We have proof that he destroyed them. 'Cause, you know, there aren't any there.

Besides, why the hell would we be more worried about someone we think has WMD, when we've got another, more belligerent nation, screaming at the top of their lungs, "HEY, AMERICAN FUCKSTICKS, WE HAVE A NUKE! AND WE'RE MAKING MORE! AND WE'LL USE THEM, TOO!" Gee, which one is the greater threat, and should be dealt with first?

Because if thirteen years of searching turned up nothing, it sure does invalidate the claim that Saddam had weapons deployable within 45 minutes.

Congratulations, Ronnie. You have deomnstrably mastered the art of doublethink.

"We are at war with Eurasia. We have always been at war with Eurasia."
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 10:34 PM       
Spad, you are a complete and utter moron.

"Bullshit. Dubya Industries, Inc., wanted proof that he had them, not that he had destroyed them. And you know that. We have proof that he destroyed them. 'Cause, you know, there aren't any there." - Spad

Just look at U.N. resolution 1441. Saddam had to prove that the WMD were destroyed to avoid war. Man, you really hate the facts, don't you?

"Besides, why the hell would we be more worried about someone we think has WMD, when we've got another, more belligerent nation, screaming at the top of their lungs, "HEY, AMERICAN FUCKSTICKS, WE HAVE A NUKE! AND WE'RE MAKING MORE! AND WE'LL USE THEM, TOO!" Gee, which one is the greater threat, and should be dealt with first?"

Saddam, because he WASN'T screaming and throwing a tantrum like Jong Il. Diplomacy hasn't been exausted there. Do you even know how he got those nukes? We wouldn't even be in this situation if Bill Clinton hadn't given the ability to make nukes.

I guarentee you when it comes time to deal with North Korea, you will not support it.....unless a democrat is in office of course. You are way more partisan than I am, and that's saying something.

"Because if thirteen years of searching turned up nothing, it sure does invalidate the claim that Saddam had weapons deployable within 45 minutes."

We weren't searching that whole time and when we were, we were still handicapped by Saddam. Did you not know that?

"Congratulations, Ronnie. You have deomnstrably mastered the art of doublethink."

Damn, you're ignorant. Just keep talking, it makes me look like a fucking genius.
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 10:35 PM       
Damn, you're ignorant. Just keep talking, it makes me look like a fucking genius.

No. No, it really doesn't. Sorry.
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 11:06 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fairandbalanced
Just look at U.N. resolution 1441. Saddam had to prove that the WMD were destroyed to avoid war. Man, you really hate the facts, don't you?
How do you prove you've destroyed weapons that you've destroyed? And, in typical Raygun fashion, you miss the point, because it is you who cannot face the facts: Remember the smoking guns we were looking for? The ones we still haven't found? Because they're not there. Because they were either destroyed, or were never there in the first place. How do you prove what's not there isn't there? I defy you, Mr. Fair-and-balanced, to answer that question, rather than coming back with "damn, you're ignorant," and not following it up with any argument as to why I'm ignorant, or even wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fairandbalanced
We weren't searching that whole time and when we were, we were still handicapped by Saddam. Did you not know that?
We haven't been handicapped for a year, and we still haven't found shit. And you can bet that they've been running through that country with a goddamn microscpoe since March 19 of last year. Not a damn thing. And you still can't explain why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fairandbalanced
Saddam, because he WASN'T screaming and throwing a tantrum like Jong Il. Diplomacy hasn't been exausted there. Do you even know how he got those nukes? We wouldn't even be in this situation if Bill Clinton hadn't given the ability to make nukes.
Now this is one of my favorite parts. You have to be one silly bastard to think that diplomacy is going to go any better with Jong-Il than it did with Saddam. 'Cause, see, the difference is that we KNOW he has WMD. And we knew Saddam DIDN'T, which was why Bush was so eager to saddle 'em up and start firin' them sixguns. Diplomacy, shit. War in Iraq was a foregone conclusion even before 9/11. We have no choice but to be diplomatic with N Korea, because they do have nukes, that, by intelligence estimates, could possibly reach the West coast of the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fairandbalanced
I guarentee you when it comes time to deal with North Korea, you will not support it.....unless a democrat is in office of course. You are way more partisan than I am, and that's saying something.
Actually, it's not saying anything, because you don't know fuck-all about my leanings, except that I don't like the Bush Administration, because they're the biggest liars and manipulators since Nixon.

At any rate, you have no idea what I'm going to say or do no matter how we deal with... well, anything. So why don't you get back to trying to prove me wrong (which, thus far, you have failed to do), rather than speculate on shit you know nothing about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fairandbalanced
Damn, you're ignorant. Just keep talking, it makes me look like a fucking genius.
The doublethink quote is probably the most appropriate one that anyone has ever directed at you. You will never, ever, admit that you're wrong. You just change your opinion and pretend that's the way you thought the whole time. You make a great administration lap-dog, Ronnie.
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Old Mar 10th, 2004, 11:48 PM        NK cababilities
Quote:
There isn't much North Korea can do except attack South korea and that would only mean the end of their existance.
That's not exactly trivial. Seuol is a city of 10 million people and NK has expressed a willingness to turn it into a "sea of fire". We also have troops within range of artillery along the DMZ. We could win a war in North Korea but it would be a meat grinder.

I wonder if North Koreans realize that Bush could lose the next election and whether they would resort to demonizing the next administration or telling their children that Bush is still in power.
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Old Mar 11th, 2004, 01:40 AM       
NK just waiting for us to finally elect a weak willed president who will bow to international pressure and start cutting back on War funds, and pulling troops out of other countries. And as soon as we show any weakness. BAM!

I believe that is half the reason why we invaded Iraq.
Anyone remember what else was in the newspapers back then?
It was a growing tension with North Korea. Iraq was a demostation of power to North Korea.
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Old Mar 11th, 2004, 03:43 AM       
Yeah, and it sure settled Kim Jong-Il down, didn't it? Why, he's quiet as a church mouse now. Look at those North Koreans cowering in fear. Just like that article said up above, right?
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Old Mar 11th, 2004, 04:30 AM       
sspadowsky, shut up and try to understand.

The NK people might think they are invincible, hell, so did the Iraqi. Both (Pre-Occupation Iraq) at the time where taking verbal pokes, and prods at the U.S. giant. Iraq had a shell, but NK had a shell with spikes. So we crush Iraq, we flex our muscles, this quells the NK military leaders, who are bound to know we have the means to crush them. It a show of power.

You must understand leaders like Kim Jong-Il, they sprout nothing but bravado, and if he had his way, I doubt he will ever attack South Korea. But the people might. He played with fire of propaganda, and will suffer later. He urged the fire on, building it up with hate against the U.S. and that fire might escape his control.
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Old Mar 11th, 2004, 09:49 AM       
Quote:
How do you prove you've destroyed weapons that you've destroyed?
It doesn't just disappear. Show the waste of the process. Show the ducmentation. Have a third party watch it happen. Its not that hard to conceive.

And NK has China yanking on their leash. Who was bearing over Saddam?
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Old Mar 11th, 2004, 10:50 AM       
Quote:
”After reading this book, I had a hatred for the American imperialists,” says one student.
Same here!
Quote:
today's Hitler is George W. Bush.
That's true!
Quote:
Why do the North Korean student think there are still wars in the world? “Because the cruel Americans want war,” replies one student.
They do! Well, their chosen leaders do.
Quote:
Student: You should not beg for peace. As long as the imperialists live, there will be no end to war.
All true!
Quote:
Elias, who considers today’s Hitler to be Kim Jong-Il, North Korea’s supreme leader
...Showing a complete lack of understanding of Fascism. Juche is far from Fascism. US capitalist imperilism however...Bush is definatley today's Hitler. Also, lil Kim is not DPRK's supreme leader, Kim Sung Il is. Kim Jong Il is the commandeer in chief of the army and a few other posts.
Quote:
And, in North Korea, teachers don't decide what their students will read. Those instructions come down from the top.
Like in Australia?
Quote:
Another student read from the diary: “Why is there hunger when food rots away elsewhere? Why are people so crazy?”
Good question. Why is food being destroyed in wealthy countries while people in N Korea and elsewhere starve?
Quote:
these students don't know that in their socialist paradise, up to a million people are now held in slave labor camps.
Slave Labour camps? DPK has Labour prison camps, yes, but so does the US.
Worthles Liar:
Quote:
We could win a war in North Korea but it would be a meat grinder.
Remeber: N Korea has "a powerful military". Iraq had a weak army, and USA will not even win there. Vietnam had "a second rate army of shoeless peasants."
Does China have a mutual defense treaty with DPRK still? I don't know.
Quote:
wonder if North Koreans realize that Bush could lose the next election and whether they would resort to demonizing the next administration or telling their children that Bush is still in power.
They wont have to 'demonize', the truth is enough. However... http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=10503
Also interesting:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...a_north_usa_dc
Not that it fucking matters what they think.
Damnthatdavid:
Quote:
Iraq had a shell,
Iraq had a paper bag.
Quote:
NK had a shell with spikes
Had? Are you getting ahead of yourself Damnthatdavid? By 'spikes' I am guessing you mean NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
Quote:
He played with fire of propaganda, and will suffer later. He urged the fire on, building it up with hate against the U.S. and that fire might escape his control.
What does this mean to those of us not fluent in Bush/Vince?
Quote:
The NK people might think they are invincible...
How stupid can you get?! Those morons!

I seriously hope that DPRK builds as many WMD's as possible. They are the only thing that kept the imperialists from attacking the USSR (again) or China or any other stalinist nation. Except Vietnam and Laos. Now that the Russians and Chinese are more interested in surrendering to business than practicing rhetoric, DPRK has to make it's own. The more the better.
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Old Mar 11th, 2004, 01:06 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by DamnthatDavid
sspadowsky, shut up and try to understand.

The NK people might think they are invincible, hell, so did the Iraqi. Both (Pre-Occupation Iraq) at the time where taking verbal pokes, and prods at the U.S. giant. Iraq had a shell, but NK had a shell with spikes. So we crush Iraq, we flex our muscles, this quells the NK military leaders, who are bound to know we have the means to crush them. It a show of power.

You must understand leaders like Kim Jong-Il, they sprout nothing but bravado, and if he had his way, I doubt he will ever attack South Korea. But the people might. He played with fire of propaganda, and will suffer later. He urged the fire on, building it up with hate against the U.S. and that fire might escape his control.
Geez, David, you know, you're right. What was I thinking? It's all so clear now! I apologize for my impudence, and I humbly bow before your firm and expert grasp of foreign policy.
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 11th, 2004, 01:14 PM       
I'll say this:

Anne Frank was a TOTAL loser at hide and seek.
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DamnthatDavid DamnthatDavid is offline
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Old Mar 11th, 2004, 07:20 PM       
mburbank, I believe they would of succesfully hidden well if they where never ratted out.

Quote:
What does this mean to those of us not fluent in Bush/Vince
Bush does not have the mental capabilites to understand what I am saying. Niether do you it seems.

The foundation of countries like NK are based off of pain and suffering. And would eventually turn on the leaders.
Kim Sung Il knew this, and had to channel that anger and hate into a tool he could use. He told the people lies, filled their minds with hate toward the U.S. That is playing with fire. But someday, something is going to snap, and he will no longer have the control over the hate.

You also seem to be listening to the same idiotic lies that all weaker countries make of the powerful. It makes them feel better.
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