MATRIX 2: Reloaded discussion

[JaKe]

Snake wrote:
Another idea then came to my mind. What if Neo didnt stop the Sentinels. What if they were sensing some of Smiths programming within him, stopped and then self destructed or something becouse they arent supposed to attack other machines. Its probably a far shot but its something to take note of.



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What if, like, the whole world was the matrix, inside and out, so he could kill them because he was still inside the matrix. That would mess with some perceptions.

[Krythor]

Maybe you haven't been paying attention to the rest of the thread or something, but that's quite the popular opinion already.

[Skulhedface]

I just had another idea...

what if all those answers are wrong? After all, maybe it's the system's way of keeping control...

The Architect, sensing that humanity was nearing the core of the Matrix, thus nullifying their chief energy source, came to Neo in the form of a personified program (ala the Oracle, Agent Smith, etc.) and played it cool to try to manipulate Neo into making the choice that would benefit the Matrix and the machines in general (loosely a la Total Recall) ?

A program would have a much easier time playing it "cool" than a human would, which is why the Architect wouldn't show any worry, despite the fact that the machines were about to experience a turning tide in the war and be on the losing side.

[FS]

Originally Posted by punkgrrrlie10

The architect said that there were other "ones" before him which means that the others on the screen were the "ones" who reacted to the architect before, not necessarily the "one" that is before him.

Impossible. As said before in this thread, there were only 5 other Matrices before this one, so there can't have been more than 5 other Ones. I'd go with Skullhedface's explanation that the Neos on the screens are like an extrapolation of Neo's character that the Architect made prior to his arrival, transmitting all of his possible reactions to the Architect's words. That makes it more funny when they simultaneously say "Bullshit!" because it's apparently the only possible reaction Neo can give.

About Agent Smith in Bane's body, the main question is WHY did he cut up his hand to get his blood on Neo? Considering that they're both unconscious at the very end of Matrix:Reloaded, my theory right now is that getting his blood on Neo somehow drew Neo back into the (primary) Matrix with no possibility of escape - allowing Smith to face him with all of his clones, perhaps in the rain battle shown in the trailer. But I think the blood stands separate from Neo stopping the Sentinels. I think that was a direct consequence of his talk with the Architect, in which he probably figured out himself that Zion isn't the real world either.

Originally Posted by snake

- Also. In the first movie, Agent Smith talks of other Matrixes to Morpheus when he is being held captive. Smith is spesifically refering to the "first Matrix". Why doesent Morpheus mention this to Neo? During Neos conversation with the Architect his respond to the fact that there are other matrixes are "either anyone has not told me or anyone.........doesent know."

There's a couple of possible explanations for that... One, Morpheus was barely conscious while being interrogated. He might not even have heard Smith. Two, the way Smith was talking about the first Matrix, I just considered it like an early beta version of the Matrix, that was a complete failure, after which they rebuilt it to make it more acceptable to humans. It's strange, though, that Smith would know there's been previous versions. But even before being "freed" from being an Agent, there seemed to be more to him than just a program serving the system.

Originally Posted by Skullhedface

A program would have a much easier time playing it "cool" than a human would, which is why the Architect wouldn't show any worry, despite the fact that the machines were about to experience a turning tide in the war and be on the losing side.

Hm... Could be, but I think the Architect would not show emotion regardless of whether or not Neo serves his purposes - he is a program, after all. Besides, from the conversation I got the impression that the great difference between man and machine in the war is that the machines, lacking emotion, are willing to completely sacrifice themselves in order to destroy humanity and end the war. Which would be the consequence to killing all humans in the Matrix, considering they're seemingly the only source of energy. The way the choice was set up would serve the Machines eitherway - either Zion would be exterminated and rebuilt, allowing the system to live on unthreatened, or every being in Zion and the Matrix would be destroyed, ending the war with a pyrrhic victory for the Machines.

[Vibecrewangel]

RUMOR

I've heard that in the video game there are three factions. The humans, the programs and the machines.
If the this is part of the plot in the third movie things are gonna get interesting.

[Protoclown]

I agree with FatSatan on most of the points he raised. The other Neo's on the monitors couldn't have been other "Ones", they were just an extrapolation of Neo's possible reactions. And I seriously doubt Zion comes back looking the same every time after it is destroyed, so Bubba's interesting point still stands.

As for Morpheus not telling Neo about the first Matrix, I think that at the time, that information was irrelevant. Without the knowledge that there have been multiple "Ones", any revelation of a previous beta version of the Matrix was completely inconsequential. Interesting, but having no real bearing on their current situation.

[Spectre X]

the cutting of Bane/Smith's was propably more Smith being fascinated with pain and blood, since we all know that Agents do not feel pain or bleed, since they can go on forever.

I do not believ that Zion is a second Matrix, too predictable for anyone who has seen Reloaded. The W brothers will propably come up with something more original.

I stand firm by my statement of Neo actually being part program and part human, the program part being the accumulation of the Matrix anomaly, the human part being the part that loves Trinity, the program par tthat makes him able to reprogram the Matrix to his will. the program part might have been affected by the choice to save Trinity making him able to do his magic in a limited form in the real world because part of his mind subconsciously thinks that he is still in the Matrix, giving him the powers to a limited degree outside of the Matrix because his mind 'makes it real' as with the injuries. The human mind is a powerfull thing. the reason why he collapsed is highly likey, as Chojin said because the use of them took a lot of his normal energy, instead of effortlessly reprogramming the Matrix. Outside of the Matrix, he propably reprograms the laws of physics with his kind as he would in the Matrix, but he uses his own energy for it, exhausting him.

The only thing I have left to say is that Neo doesn't bend or break the rules in the Matrix and creates a bigger range of choice for huimself. He rewrites code, making him something of a god, and when he gets enough time to develope his powers, he WILL be a god, he will be able to do anything.

[Bennett]

As I understood it, there were previous Matrices that failed for one reason or another, as he explains, the first one was perfect, etc. etc. The reason that the current Matrix works, is in part because of the anamoly. In this sense, all five of the previous "ones" were part of the current Matrix which survives by being cyclical. Neither the Matrix or the human race is completely destroyed. So from this point of view, the other screens could have been the previous "ones."

[FS]

Vibe, that's an empty rumor. In the videogame, you just play a number of missions in the Matrix, connecting to events from just before and during the movie Matrix:Reloaded. It's an interesting concept - the Programs could've experienced all kinds of new sensations while existing in the Matrix, and decide they're no longer content serving the purposes of the emotionless Machines. But I don't think there'd be enough time to introduce that into the next movie. If there was a faction of Programs, I think it'd be Smith.

Originally Posted by Spectre X

the cutting of Bane/Smith's was propably more Smith being fascinated with pain and blood, since we all know that Agents do not feel pain or bleed, since they can go on forever.

That could be. I noticed when I saw part of that scene again in Enter the Matrix that he's already got two older cuts in his hand. And either I wasn't paying enough attention in the theatre or I just don't remember, but did he actually shake hands with Neo or did he just wave at him? Cause, wouldn't Neo have felt the blood on his hand? That whole scene feels foggy in my memory, probably because I was primed for Bane attacking Neo with his knife.

I'm still open to the idea that Zion is the real world, fitted into the plan of the Machines, but the arguments given for it being a second layer of the Matrix are pretty convincing. I think the next movie will go with that.

[snake]

Bane shakes Neos hand. I noticed it after seeing reloaded for the second time. However. We dont actually see the handsshake so it might be that the hand that is in contact with Neo is his other hand. As FS said, Neo should have reacted if he shook a bloody hand.

Maybe its supposed to be purely symbolic too. Neo has smiths blood on his hands or something like that.

[Wang]

i agree with spectre x, Bennet and the last guy, their opinions are the more realistic ones. besides , didnt smith cut his hand way before me meet neo? it may have healed and he wasnt trying to shake neos hand, he had the intenion of killing him because he had a knife in his other hand! duh!

[Vibecrewangel]

Thanks FS. I haven't seen anything other than the movies, and Reloaded only once. I've heard so many rumors about the game giving hints to the third movie I figured I'd bring it up and see if anyone had some additional info.

I'll have to see Reloaded again to get a better idea of the handshake scene. Tho I do know they shook hands. I think Neo even looked at his own hand sort of strangely right after. But I could be mistaken.

[FS]

For those who've already played Enter the Matrix or those who don't intend to, I've written a transcript of some of the cut-scenes in the game.

Click here to read

This is not a transcript for the entire game; only conversations and scenes that yield new information or more to think about when discussing whether or not Zion is real.

When I actually sat down to type all of it down, I realized there's a lot more thought-provoking stuff on the story than I initially thought. Especially in the final conversations with the Oracle. Notice how she speaks of "our world and yours", possibly referring to the world of the programs (Matrix) and the real world (Zion)? I'm switching back to the theory that Zion is real and they're going to mix technology and spirituality to explain why Neo could use his powers in the real world, anyway. Other things I find interesting is the child of two programs that the Oracle speaks of, the "shadow" (which, considering that it's followed directly by the scene of Smith copying himself into Bane, I assume refers to him), and especially that Neo has been separated from mind and body. Perhaps this means that his body is in the real world while his mind is stuck in the Matrix.

[snake]

Originally Posted by FS

[color=yellow]I'm switching back to the theory that Zion is real and they're going to mix technology and spirituality to explain why Neo could use his powers in the real world.

After her conversation with Neo, the Oracle tells him "if it is any conselation kid, you have made a believer of me" this kind of underscores the spiritual aspect FS is talking about.

[FeuerAffe]

Kind of off subject...but I saw on the news the other day that an albino group is upset about the twins in the movie...because albinos are always shown as villains. wah.

[snake]

Becouse albinos are freaky and cool.........in the movies at least.

firemonkey

[CrakhedCharlie]

WORST MOVIE EVER!!!

This movie made Gangs of New York look like a fucking mind-blowing blockbuster. Too much time spent on special effects and not on the plot. I've seen home movies with better story lines. Keanu Reeves should stick to playing Ted "Theodore" Logan. Although from what I have seen in interviews and such it didn't seem much like acting.
A lot of respect was lost for Mr. Fishburne. He was a better "Furious" "Ike" than the futuristic, prophetic Morpheus. Don't be surprised if he loses some jobs over this movie.
Carrie-Ann Moss' character, Trinity, would have been better off being played by Randy Moss.
I don't even know what the hell Jada Pinkett-Smith was doing in that movie.
Let's get off the Jesus references in this movie. It's been done too many times before. They should just send the 3rd movie straight to DVD. Then I can buy it and burn it!

[Rongi]

THANK YOU FOR THAT WOUNDERFUL AND INSITEFUL REVIEW OF YOURS. IT'S SO TRUE AND STUFF. NOW YOU CAN LEAVE BECAUSE YOU HAVE PROVEN YOURSELF TO BE A GOD AMONG MEN AND EVERYONE IS GOING TO FEEL INFERIOR TO YOU.

[CrakhedCharlie]

I am just sick of people talking about this horseshit movie. I was just venting a little frustration. And besides I AM A GOD AMONG MEN!!!!

[CrakhedCharlie]

BOW DOWN TO THE GOD OF ALL CRAKHEDS!!!

GET ON YOUR KNEES, YOU MAGGOTS!!!

[wreckreation]

@review
@ matrix

[Spectre X]

CrackhedCharlie, you have just proven yourself to be THE stupidest man that this planet has EVER spawned.


go back into your daddy's bed.

[Anonymous]

OHHHHHH! OHHHHHH! WHAT NOW, HUH?!?!!!!

[James]

Matrix Reloaded has NOTHING on this baby.

[Vibecrewangel]

Just saw it for the second time. WAY better this time around.

Proto, this one you will get a kick out of......
In the architect scene it is clearly the same screens used in the first movie when Neo is first captured by the agents and is sitting in the room being questioned. The same filming technique is being used in Reloaded, but now it makes sense. All the repeating images of neo are him at that moment. Not previous ones. Each of the actions and reactions on the screen are his potential actions at that moment. (I think someone brought this up before...mentioning that the FUCK YOU seemed to be the only possible action at that time) During the scene whenever there are possibilities on the screens you are pulled through the one screen that is the choice Neo made at that moment and then you are back to the repeating screens.

I also came up with a theory on Neo and Smith. Neo was supposed to be The One. The one was both the begining and the end. The singular and the infinite. But now, after he changed Smith in the first movie by entering his program, he is the singular and Smith is the infinite.

Additionally, there was something I caught I am still pondering. When they first head to the resteraunt to try and get the keymaker there is a 101 above the doorway behind them. In the next scene they are on highway 101. I thought this was odd so I started looking for more 101 references. When Neo goes to the architect I thought that was a symbolic 101 moment. The two doors and the room being the numbers. During the scene where he is healing Trinity, they show her vitals screen and the number for her blood pressure is 110. This lead me to think that if he had chosen the other door, the next number to be seen would have been 011. In the final scene when both Neo and Bane are unconscious the pan across Neo over the floor that is tiled to look like a zero and over to Bane.

I also think that evey time they show a clock it is showing just before 12 which is just before the time Neo enters the source.

Anyhoo, I'm rambling and it's 2am. g'night.