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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 30th, 2004, 10:48 AM        Al Qaeda bombings prevented today in London
These latest clusters of attacks really have me re-evaluating my stance on all of this. I was, and still am opposed to the Iraq war, primarily b/c A + B doesn't equal C in my opinion. However, I am quickly beginning to believe that it's time to take drastic action with these people. I'm all in favor of an East vs. West debate/conversation, like in the "public sphere" Habermas sense, but this conversation can't include bombs that specifical;ly target civilians. I'm really, really tired of this shit, and I'm beginning to believe that these groups need a severe ass kicking, and if America needs to be the hated schoolyard bulley that does it, then so be it.....

http://www.thisislondon.com/til/jsp/...itemId=9969473

30/03/04 - News and city section

Terror bombs seized
By Justin Davenport and Hugh Dougherty, Evening Standard

An al Qaeda plot to blast London was dramatically foiled by police today.

Seven hundred police swooped in a series of 6am raids in the capital and the Home Counties. They found half a tonne of fertiliser explosives - enough for a series of terror "spectaculars".

The terrorist suspects arrested by police are believed to have chosen "soft targets" for bombings including pubs and clubs. One of the suspects being held had a job at Gatwick Airport, immediately raising concerns over airlines and passengers.

A total of eight men - all of them British citizens of Pakistani descent, three of them teenagers - were arrested in the operation, with police from five forces searching a total of 24 addresses across London and the South-East.

The ammonium nitrate explosives were discovered in a self-storage warehouse in Hanwell, west London and have now been made safe. They are the same explosives that al Qaeda used in attacks in Bali, Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

The raids came only two weeks after Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir John Stevens warned that an attack on London was "inevitable" and that the targets could include pubs, clubs and shopping centres.

Scotland Yard deputy assistant commissioner Peter Clarke said today: "I must stress the threat from terrorism is very real and the public must remain watchful and alert."
###
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 30th, 2004, 11:21 AM       
I don't think even the most liberal among us think Al Quaeda and it' offshoots should be allowed to set of bombs, against civillians or soldiers. It's criminal activity of the worst, most immoral sort and I strongly agree they should be rooted out and made to face justice.

I would, however, beware the perfecly natural tendency to desire schoolyard bully ass whipping. It's a distraction, I can't see it improving our deffensive situation as people who are already willing to die for their cause aren't that scared of 'ass whipping', it generally leads to indiscreet actions often against the wrong people and it plays into terrorist hands by clouding our own national judgement and feeding international anger.

I would instead suggest we get serious. We know a lot of things. We know ourt soldiers in Iraq need better body armor and shielding for their vehicles. Lets get those supplies to them now. We know Saudi Arabia is a major source of funding for extremist groups but we're deeply in bed with them and many members of the roayl family are close friends of the extended Bush clan. It's time to lean on them. We know Pakistan was the worlds largest proliferator of nuclear know how and net working, but we feel we need them. It doesn't seem to me like they're doing much of a job in any case and if the world sees us turning a blind eye to tht mess, what message does it send about our seriousness? We know our police and firefighters don't have the money or the man power to effectively respond to threats. We know our nuclear power plants are dangerous, easy tartgets but we let them police themselves becuase they're big business and we don't irritate big business.

Solving any of these problems does not require ass whipping or schoolyard bullying, and one of the cheif aims of a very small opponent is to make their larger enemey nuts so they won't think straight. In addition, our currrent dministrationwants you to think this way and get Dennis Millerafied, where you get so righteously angry you figure W and company should do anything they want without question.

Terrorism is horrifying, inhuman, barbaric, unconsionable and still kills way way way way fewer people then die in automobile accidents every year. I'm not belittling it. I'm saying it calls for focus, intelligence, coordination and clarity more often than it calls for slogans, bombs, armies, and nationalism.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 30th, 2004, 01:27 PM       
Max, I agree with you, and I'd like to see all of those things happen. However, it seems that we should be more forceful about certain things. The guy in Pakistan selling nuke technology secrets to the highest bidder, he's just as dangerous as Osama Bin Laden in my opinion, and we should be demanding this guy's head (or at least that the whole body get turned over to an international court).

And I'll admit it, I've become supportive of the Yassin assassination. The people it would encourage to strap on bombs are those who needed little encouragement to do it anyway. I think this needs to be a dual effort however of big stick and big support. We need to encourage a international, UN presence in the middle east, and assist them with finances, supplies, needed aid for infrastructure. We need to help make this Palestinian state a rerality ASAP, and forgive me, but I think it would serve us best to take it out of as many Palestinian hands as possible. Force democracy and free markets down their throats. Hunt down Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.

Liberate Lebanon. Demand that Syria withdraw from Lebanon, and encourage both nations to be as transparent as possible, so that they can show that while they disagree with us ideologically, they'd rather not kill civilians to express it.

Do a better job in Afghanistan. Pull troops out of Iraq and put them in Afghanistan, will more of a C.C.C. role than a strong armed role.

etc. etc.
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Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old Mar 30th, 2004, 01:35 PM       
WINNER: THE WAR ON TERROR
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Ant10708 Ant10708 is offline
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Old Mar 31st, 2004, 07:51 PM       
ProtoClown doesn't have much to contribute to threads does he?


I agree with Kevin except we can't pull out troops in Iraq now. It would make things worse in my opinion.
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Brandon Brandon is offline
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Old Mar 31st, 2004, 09:27 PM       
This article goes into a little bit more detail:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/...182570,00.html

The part that's most troubling to me?

Quote:
Those arrested were all born and brought up in Britain. Security sources played down suggestions of any direct link between the arrested men and al-Qaida.

Sources referred to groups of young radicalised Muslims who were "difficult to label" but viciously anti-western. Security sources suggested that the motive of the alleged planned attacks was anti-western but not dictated by anyone in the al-Qaida hierarchy.
If there's no link between these loonies and a sponsoring state or terrorist network, things are a bit more serious than we thought. Now we have freelancers and dabblers taking up arms.
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Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old Apr 1st, 2004, 01:58 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant10708
ProtoClown doesn't have much to contribute to threads does he?
Silence, pothead. I'll wager I've contributed more to these threads than you ever will. Lately I've been on my "humor" kick though rather than feeling like actually debating anything.
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ziggytrix ziggytrix is offline
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Old Apr 1st, 2004, 02:12 PM       
Potheads are people too, man. Don't be such a downer.
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Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old Apr 1st, 2004, 07:18 PM       
Yeah yeah, soilent green is people too. That doesn't mean I have to accord it any respect.
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GADZOOKS GADZOOKS is offline
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Old Apr 1st, 2004, 07:39 PM       
But you would eat it if it was the end of the world and your other choice was to drink Labatt Blue, eh Protoclow?
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Ant10708 Ant10708 is offline
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Old Apr 1st, 2004, 08:16 PM       
I thought humor was suppose to be humorous.

I wasn't being very serious anyways. Just taking a jab at ya
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Old Apr 2nd, 2004, 10:58 AM       
thats what that nasty roman said to jebus.

I think the lines are getting ever more blurred here...I wouldnt be at all surprised if the people who were arrested here (if they are guilty of what they are accused of, we know fuck all at this point) are just radicalised muslims, not necessarily al quaeda or whoever. The urge to go 'whoop ass' isnt much use when you dont have much in the way of visible or discernible enemies. You have to ask what makes a young muslim man in Britain able to be swayed by such hate filled propaganda. My guess is at least in part its due to the institutional racism and shitty economic background of most ethnic minorities here in the UK (thats not to say the white working class overe here dont have a shit time of it too- they do, its just they dont have an organised infastructure behind them brainwashing them into radicalism..they just have alchohol and drugs instead).
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Brandon Brandon is offline
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Old Apr 2nd, 2004, 01:59 PM       
Quote:
think the lines are getting ever more blurred here...I wouldnt be at all surprised if the people who were arrested here (if they are guilty of what they are accused of, we know fuck all at this point) are just radicalised muslims, not necessarily al quaeda or whoever.
That's the impression I'm getting so far.. unless I missed some late breaking update.
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punkgrrrlie10 punkgrrrlie10 is offline
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Old Apr 2nd, 2004, 02:50 PM       
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ain_train_dc_8

I guess the terrorists weren't happy with the change in government? Or that change in the government brought in different terrorists? These guys are startin' to piss me off.
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Old Apr 2nd, 2004, 07:37 PM       
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/l...ing%20Standard

Union flag set alight at mosque

By Justin Davenport Crime Correspondent
2 April 2004


Muslim extremists burnt the Union flag outside a London mosque today.

The demonstration comes as nine British Muslims are still being questioned by anti-terror police at Paddington Green after raids across the South East this week. Meanwhile, radical cleric Abu Hamza condemned the Prime Minister in front of 150 supporters at Finsbury Park. He said Britain's Muslim leaders were "hypocrites" for calling on community leaders to guard against terrorists and accused them of conspiracy with Mr Blair to win votes.

Watched by uniformed police officers, Abu Hamza held his usual Friday prayers on the pavementoutside north London's Finsbury Park mosque. The sermon ended peacefully after 45 minutes and all of Hamza's followers left without speaking to the press whom they were told were part of the conspiracy that spread lies.

At Regent's Park, al-Muhajiroun's spokesman Abdul Rehman Saleem said: "There is nothing that me and you or the British services or the Government can do about stopping an attack in this country. There is nothing Tony Blair, this liar, can do to stop al Qaeda. There is nothing that MI5 or MI6 can do to stop al Qaeda from bombing London.

"That is the reality and the only person to blame is Tony Blair himself. They warned him in Madrid - pull your troops out and we will not bomb you. They did not listen. They gave them bloodshed in Madrid.

"They warned them in New York - stop the terrorism in Afghanistan and Iraq. They did not listen. They gave them bloodshed in New York. Now Tony Blair has been warned."

Al-Muhajiroun supporters also ripped up copies of a letter sent by the Muslim Council of Britain calling for Muslims to fight terror.
---------------

Yikes.
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Old Apr 9th, 2004, 02:04 AM       
Three of the eight were captured in my hometown.

See Dole, Crawley is way better than Brighton!
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Buffalo Tom Buffalo Tom is offline
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Old Apr 9th, 2004, 05:29 AM       
I agree that counter-terrorism efforts should be stepped up. We can argue until Bush cold-cocks himself with another salty snack about the Orwellian implications of buttressing further the current security apparatus; but the fact of the matter is that every day schmucks like myself want to feel secure in the knowledge that they won't be blown to a million pieces while going to a bar to down a few pints and that they won't see their loved ones among the list of dead of some shopping mall bombing.

At the same time, though, we have to realize that tougher law enforcement is only treating the symptom. We have to stop antagonizing the rest of the world, and start winning people over to our side. Give the majority of people reason not to be conspirators in plans to set off a nerve gas in a high-traffic civilian area. To me, this problem is similiar to the problems faced by countless cities in fighting crime in areas of high urban poverty. You have people who perceive their circumstances as being dire, and they are resorting to illegal measures to change this. I'm not suggesting the problem is as simple as that; there is that large elephant that this conflict is a war of cultures that people are generally hesistant to acknowledge. What I am suggesting, though, is that an increase in the effort level in enforcement activities should be matched with an increase in activities to reach out to the groups from which the terrorists recruit. In my mind, we're doing too much 'ass-whooping' and not enough hand-shaking.

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davinxtk davinxtk is offline
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Old Apr 9th, 2004, 12:50 PM       
Therefore, the best warfare strategy is to attack the enemy's plans, next is to attack alliances, next is to attack the army, and the worst is to attack a walled city
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(1:02:34 AM): and i think i may have gone a little too far and let her know that i actually do hate her, on some level, just because she's female
(1:03:33 AM): and now she's being all kinds of sensitive about it
(1:03:53 AM): i hate women
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Ant10708 Ant10708 is offline
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Old Apr 9th, 2004, 05:11 PM       
Didn't the bloodshed in New York happen before we were in Afghanstan and Iraq(this war).
This guy is right those random workers had it coming to them.
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