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  #26  
theapportioner theapportioner is offline
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Old Mar 30th, 2003, 09:17 PM       
Speaking of His Majesty the Shah, it was an Iranian popular revolt that led to his sacking. A rejection of a blatant attempt at Westernization, and a corrupt regime. Yes, the United States helped to bring him to power. But this revolt, I think, did not come about because of American micro-meddling necessarily, but because of a rejection of over-Westernization, essentially.

Many different groups, ideologies, participated in the revolt, but it was the fundamentalists that ultimately took power. People forget this -- they assume it was always a fundamentalist revolt.

Now, 70% of Iranians are under 30 years old, because of a baby boom inspired by the revolution. They want reforms. By many accounts the fundamentalist facade is collapsing. The revolution is dying. What does this remind me of? The Soviet Union.

My points:

1) Popular will exists in the "Islamic world", at least in the Iranian case.

2) The reform of Iranian government, and civilization, should take its natural course. Hegemonistic meddling, even in neighboring countries, will hurt this natural course. Will it prevent it? Maybe, depends on how far the US will go.

3) I believe that, if we improved relations with the "Islamic world" generally, it will lead to the openness and the moderating of ideology that we are seeing in China. Of course this will take time.

4) Any reconstruction of Iraq's political structure will have to take a local flavor. We cannot simply transplant our Constitution there. We should be wary of over-Westernization. It will have to give the utmost respect to Islam, and balance the tensions of the various ethnic groups within Iraq. But what does the Bush administration know about Islam?
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  #27  
The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Mar 31st, 2003, 12:17 AM       
"Why did he make that promise in the first place, if he was not certain of being able to keep it?"

You know, there is a point where you can simply admit you didn't understand an issue fully and let it die. Nothing in certain in life but two things: Death and failure. At the time, Bush felt he could live up to his promises, I mean, Saddam was/is a real life villain. He's nobody's hero, and everyone knows it. It was reasonable to expect that he could follow through with his promises and certainly wasn't setting the Kurds up for a fall.
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  #28  
VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Mar 31st, 2003, 09:16 AM       
Jeanette, how many Jews do you know that are going on television wanting to destroy Muslims and Christians? How many Jews are homicide bombers? Exactly.
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  #29  
Jeanette X Jeanette X is offline
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Old Mar 31st, 2003, 10:51 AM       
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Originally Posted by VinceZeb
Jeanette, how many Jews do you know that are going on television wanting to destroy Muslims and Christians? How many Jews are homicide bombers? Exactly.
Vince, that is irrelevant to this arguement. We are only discussing the doctrines of these religions, not the actions of the people who claim to follow them.
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  #30  
Jeanette X Jeanette X is offline
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Old Mar 31st, 2003, 10:52 AM       
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Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
You know, there is a point where you can simply admit you didn't understand an issue fully and let it die. .
Well NO SHIT I didn't understand the issue. Why the hell do you think I asked so many questions in the first place? I'm trying to learn more.
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  #31  
VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Mar 31st, 2003, 10:59 AM       
Jean, its very relavant to the argument. I cant write a book calling for the sexual molestation of farm equipment, but it means nothing unless people start acting on it.

There was wars in the history of Judism, but they are not commiting those wars now. Islamic fundies are causing them now. THAT is the problem.
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  #32  
Jeanette X Jeanette X is offline
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Old Mar 31st, 2003, 12:53 PM       
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Originally Posted by VinceZeb
The Koran and the collection of holy text that the Muslims use tell them about conquering non-muslims in battle. There is a difference between religous text influencing people to do something by a misinterpitation and when the text itself says what Allah commands. .
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Originally Posted by VinceZeb
Jean, its very relavant to the argument. I cant write a book calling for the sexual molestation of farm equipment, but it means nothing unless people start acting on it.

There was wars in the history of Judism, but they are not commiting those wars now. Islamic fundies are causing them now. THAT is the problem.
Now I am confused...is your arguement that Islam is bad simply because of the fact that Islamic fundamentalists are committing atrocites now, as opposed to in the past? Is time frame the main issue?

(btw, I prefer to be called "Jeanette", not "Jean".)
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