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  #76  
Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old May 20th, 2003, 07:58 AM       
Yeah, but you like Cable. So I'm not surprised you didn't understand a thing that was going on.
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  #77  
Alxcipher Alxcipher is offline
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Old May 20th, 2003, 09:33 AM       
The concept of a secondary Matrix or one Matrix seem rather obvious. The Oracle said to Neo that he had already made his choices he just needed to understand why he made them and the obvious answer was love in his choice with the architect. So was it all pre-determined? Was the Matrix a program that effectively created slaves who had no capacity to make choices? Perhaps the Matrix was not only a world but a simulation where its inhabitants are systematically duped into thinking they are autonomous. Did Neo ever really have a choice? I am also curious as to how to separate the "real" world dreams from the Matrix. If in fact the Matrix was already determined then Neo didn't have a choice once inside the Matrix and thus could see outcomes of what was going to happen within the program if he entered? Or perhaps thoughts placed in his head by the Matrix to lure his presence.

I construed Zion as the "real" world, in that it would create the Matrix's illusion far more believable if people think they can actually escape. This made me wonder how Neo stopped the Sentinels and I came to a conclusion similar to one put forth before that he has learnt to break rules in the real world now hence the passing out. Perhaps the Matrix served as an illustration for Neo to be able to transcend "rules" no matter on the context. This lead me to ideas about dual existence and multiple realities... To be concluded.
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  #78  
Geggy Geggy is offline
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Old May 20th, 2003, 10:16 AM       
I'm surprised anyone would dig deep into the movie, it wasn't even that hard to figure out. That's why I hated it. It lacked everything that the first Matrix film had...except there were more action in the second one. That's not saying much because I thought most of the action scenes were mediocre. 'XXX' kind of mediocre, that is. Remember when Neo flew through the city, destroying everything in the path to catch Trinity? Reminded me of Powerpuff Girls Movie. Yep.
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  #79  
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Old May 20th, 2003, 12:54 PM        Matrix
The funny thing is, I didn't read any of this into the movie. It was the other way around. I was using the movie to help me understand a theoretical concept I was having trouble with.
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Old May 20th, 2003, 01:01 PM       
Don't look at me. I didn't even know that the "Narnia" series by C.S. Lewis had religious undertones until an instructor pointed it out in college. :/
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  #81  
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Old May 20th, 2003, 01:21 PM       
I'm not gonna pretend I paid anywhere near the attention some of you guys did to this movie, but I read all of this and found it very interesting. But I have a question that has been bugging me for awhile and maybe one of you guys could answer it:

If the whole purpose of the machines is to use humans for energy, then why exactly is the 'matrix' necessary? Could they not simply extract the same energy from comatose humans?
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Old May 20th, 2003, 01:42 PM       
As cheesy as it is, the answer was control.

Medically speaking, I'd think that would put out more energy than a comatose person, and as the people still in the Matrix are basically active, that's a lot of energy coming from the brain. I could be wrong, as I admit I know zilch about how a comatose mind works, but that's all I've got.
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Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old May 20th, 2003, 02:02 PM       
My roommate (Sarcastro, who posts on here about once every eon) has an interesting theory about that that he told me about last night.

He believes that the Matrix manipulated Neo into choosing the "humanity is fuct" door because they want to be rid of the Matrix, they want to completely do away with it, they don't NEED it to survive ("there are levels of survivability we are willing to accept").

But, he feels that the machines still can't simply eliminate it themselves. Suppose that the machines still have some ingrained compulsion to serve humanity, as that is what they were originally designed for. By creating a world within the Matrix, they are still serving humanity on some level, even as they use humans for their own needs. They COULD just pump static through the Matrix, but they don't.

So anyway, the way he sees it, they can't take it upon themselves to completely DESTROY humanity, but if they put the choice in the hands of a human and HE decides to fuck over humanity, then the machines have the excuse they were looking for and it doesn't violate their programming.

It's interesting. I'm particularly eager to see what Wreck thinks of all this, as I'm sure he's following this discussion closely.

EDIT: Oh, and Geggy, if the movie was so "obvious" to figure out, why don't you explain it to us philistines?
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Old May 20th, 2003, 02:39 PM       
Protoclown and Sarcastro: That's a very interesting point. The only question I'd have would be, haven't the machines already significantly surpassed the initial programming that the humans are responsible for? It would seem a little strange - although completely possible - that they will obey this prime directive, but ignore everything else that would most certainly be an inherent part of their programming (i.e. protect humans, never harm them, etc.). Ofcourse this does not negate the point - somewhere deep down in their BIOS (heh) could be that single command that they must obey.

My point before was that, if this is the case, the 'matrix' seems inefficient. The same energy could be extracted from comatose, or at very least, constant-REM-induced humans leaving zero room for rebellion (no communication, etc.). Unless somebody mastered lucid dreaming and became the "One" in that sense and oh I see a parallel

Like I said, I don't claim to understand much about this (I've only seen each one once and both times I was not exactly in the state of mind to remember details) - so if I missed something obvious, my apologies.
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Old May 20th, 2003, 05:04 PM       
My idea is, the Matrix might've been made so complex that it works like an overly bureaucratic system. One program answers to another and another and another. They have been written to be allowed a certain number of actions, but can't move outside of those. Otherwise agents, for instance, could just instantly kill anyone in the Matrix posing a problem. This could be tracked down to the highest programs, the ones that control everything, and for that purpose are as primitive yet efficient as insects. They would write programs complex enough to function inside the Matrix, but not complex enough to act independantly.
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Matt Harty Matt Harty is offline
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Old May 20th, 2003, 08:42 PM       
Agents were made for the sole purpose of making the "free people" believe they had a point, and they were actually fighting for something.

Whether in Zion or the Matrix, they're always under control.
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Zomboid Zomboid is offline
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Old May 20th, 2003, 11:52 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protoclown
Yeah, but you like Cable. So I'm not surprised you didn't understand a thing that was going on.
Oh there's the typical reply I've been waiting for. Anyone who didn't like it didn't understand it. That's great...
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Old May 21st, 2003, 09:10 AM       
Truth be told, the actual story, or "philosophy" of the movie isn't that interesting to me. What struck me was how they used blacks in a prominent, non demeaning way.
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  #89  
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Old May 21st, 2003, 01:14 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zomboid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protoclown
Yeah, but you like Cable. So I'm not surprised you didn't understand a thing that was going on.
Oh there's the typical reply I've been waiting for. Anyone who didn't like it didn't understand it. That's great...
Actually I made a point earlier to mention that I did NOT think that everyone who merely disliked the movie failed to understand it.

I just think that most people who found it boring probably did not comprehend everything that was happening. I have seen the movie twice now, and boring it is NOT.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike the movie if it wasn't your cup of tea. But "boring"? Please.

And I felt like slamming your love of Cable, because it's fun.
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Old May 21st, 2003, 01:47 PM       
I understood it proto, but I don't think I need to remind you that you thinking it's not boring is just your opinion. I enjoyed the matrix more than ever when I saw it recently, so maybe the same will happen for reloaded (several viewings over a long period of time), but I wasn't really impressed by the same tricks they used in the last movie all over again. Some things were pretty cool though.

As for cable, I don't "love" or even like him more than most comic characters. He's just a character I like. Bringing it up over and over is just making it lose it's effect, so keep it up if ya want.
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Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old May 21st, 2003, 01:57 PM       
you like cable tee hee
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  #92  
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Old May 21st, 2003, 03:14 PM       
I saw Reloaded last Saturday and I liked it better than the first. The Revolutions trailer looked a little disappointing though but hopefully it will clear everything up.
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  #93  
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Old May 22nd, 2003, 01:58 PM       
I'M SPOILING EVERYTHING!



ok i see that this bored is turning to like...more discussion of what the matrix actually is rather than opinions on reloaded...but i'm an opinionated fool and feel like going on a rant anyway.

i don't see how people can say that reloaded was anywhere near as good as the first one. the only thing that could have superceeded the first one was the special effects, but you can't base a movie on that. it needs a good plot. something the first one had and the second was seriously lacking.

another big gripe of mine was how so many things were seriously under developed. like that mouse-wannabe kid. what was his purpose? all they said about him was that neo saved his life and now he was a pain in the ass. that's all. so unless they're going to kill off neo and make this kid the new "one" (highly unlikely, i think) then there was so real reason to introduce him.

another thing that bothered me was the whole morpheus/naobi thing. it started out like it was going to develope into something and then it just sort of quit. as far as i'm concerned they just needed someone to catch morpheus' ass when he fell off a truck. so unless she intends to be some great super hero in the third one, then i thought her character sucked as well. and he new boyfriend was a complete tool.

another thing: what exactly was the french dude's deal? like...yah he had some interesting things to say, but who was he supposed to be? was he maybe one the former "ones"? someone gimmie some input on this.

and was it just me or were a lot of the fight scenes like...forced? like when neo went to see the oracle and he had to fight that dude? that wasn't *really* nessicary. i'll admit, it was real real cool, but not really nessicary.

ah, that's all i got for now. if someone could like...gimmie some opinions on what i said...that would be awesome. thanks for readin'
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  #94  
Vibecrewangel Vibecrewangel is offline
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Old May 22nd, 2003, 02:05 PM        Matrix
I think if anyone is going to turn out to be a former One it's going to be the Architect.
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  #95  
timrpgland timrpgland is offline
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Old May 22nd, 2003, 03:46 PM       
placebo009 you do realize that there is another movie coming out and most of your gripes are just that things are left unanswered. That's what Revolutions is for.

The movie was incredibly watchable and interesting.
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Old May 22nd, 2003, 03:55 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by placebo009
another big gripe of mine was how so many things were seriously under developed. like that mouse-wannabe kid. what was his purpose? all they said about him was that neo saved his life and now he was a pain in the ass. that's all. so unless they're going to kill off neo and make this kid the new "one" (highly unlikely, i think) then there was so real reason to introduce him.
I see two possibilities: 1) he was a minor character, or 2) he's going to get more screentime in the next movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by placebo009
another thing that bothered me was the whole morpheus/naobi thing. it started out like it was going to develope into something and then it just sort of quit. as far as i'm concerned they just needed someone to catch morpheus' ass when he fell off a truck. so unless she intends to be some great super hero in the third one, then i thought her character sucked as well. and he new boyfriend was a complete tool.
Again, Matrix:Reloaded wasn't a complete story. For one thing, Niobe is one of the main characters in the videogame Enter The Matrix, a game that was made alongside Matrix:Reloaded with a story that fits in with the trilogy - and for another, it's extremely likely that Niobe will be back for Matrix:Revolutions. I wouldn't be surprised if Commander Lock dies in that movie and Niobe and Morpheus get back together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by placebo009
another thing: what exactly was the french dude's deal? like...yah he had some interesting things to say, but who was he supposed to be? was he maybe one the former "ones"? someone gimmie some input on this.
Come on, if you weren't paying attention to the story, how can you say you didn't like it? He was a special program of sorts to guard the Keymaker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by placebo009
and was it just me or were a lot of the fight scenes like...forced? like when neo went to see the oracle and he had to fight that dude? that wasn't *really* nessicary. i'll admit, it was real real cool, but not really nessicary.
I suppose it wasn't a great excuse to show another fight scene. Can someone refresh my memory where that line about not knowing someone until you've fought them comes from, aside from this scene?
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Old May 22nd, 2003, 03:59 PM       
Placebo, you fucking idiot. If you had only opened your eyes you would have noticed that the Merovingian was a rogue program, like Smith now is.

Niobe's role in the movie didn't just 'quite' it goes on in Enter the Matrix, which is made to fill in the story of Reloaded a bit.

Also, if the Architect turns out to be a former 'One' I'll eat my lunch, I don't want to take the risk of having to eat my shoe.

Oh, and that kid Neo saved, it was a kid from one of the Animatrix shorts.

EDIT: DAMN YOU FS!
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Old May 22nd, 2003, 06:00 PM        Matrix
Interesting article on the Matrix.


And the Oscar for Best Scholar . . .
By MICHAEL AGGER
Cornel West plays Councillor West in "The Matrix
Reloaded."
What is Cornel West doing in "The Matrix Reloaded"?

Maybe this Princeton philosophy professor's cameo
shouldn't be a surprise. In 1999, Larry and Andy
Wachowski stated their ambition to make an
"intellectual action movie" and they actually pulled
it off. The first "Matrix" movie gave the equivalent
of a cinematic high-five to the French thinker and
philosopher Jean Baudrillard by featuring his book
"Simulacra and Simulation" in an early scene. If you
look closely (and people did), you could see that the
book was open to a particular chapter, "On Nihilism."
The Wachowski brothers seized upon Mr. Baudrillard's
general nihilistic notion that we must deconstruct the
images (television, movies, advertising, clothing)
that oppress us and imbue them with a new set of
values. They skillfully retold an archetypal messiah
story with a dash of postmodern theory.

In an interview with The New York Times last year, Mr.
Baudrillard said that the movie's use of his work
"stemmed mostly from misunderstandings." But this
time, the Wachowskis have found a more willing
philosophical accomplice. Dr. West appears (minus his
trademark glasses) as a wise councillor of Zion, the
last free human city on earth. He delivers only one
line, but it's a doozy: "Comprehension is not
requisite for cooperation." Those words have already
been spotted on T-shirts in Los Angeles.

Like the Wachowskis, Dr. West draws on an impressively
wide array of sources for his work. And Dr. West has
always aspired to be a very public intellectual — he's
recorded a rap album, he's a regular on television
shows and he writes for a nonacademic audience in
publications like Spin — so it's not surprising to
find him involved in one of the biggest spectacles of
the decade. A self-described "intellectual freedom
fighter," his studies address the legacy of racism and
the problem of nihilism in black America. Larry
Wachowski loved Dr. West's writings so much —
particularly the books "Race Matters" and "Prophesy
Deliverance!" — that he decided to write a role for
Dr. West in the movie, playing a loose version of
himself. Which makes one wonder: after the Wachowskis
told us to deconstruct reality * la Baudrillard, are
they now rebuilding reality with the ideas of Dr.
West?

Reached by telephone in his office in Princeton, Dr.
West said that he and the Wachowski brothers had come
together in "acknowledging the full-fledged and
complex humanity of black people, which is a
relatively new idea in Hollywood given pervasive
racist stereotypes." And, indeed, "The Matrix
Reloaded" gives prominent roles and screen time to
African-American stars like Laurence Fishburne and
Jada Pinkett Smith. A more tantalizing connection
seems to be Dr. West's notion of the jazz freedom
fighter that concludes his book "Race Matters." He
writes: "I use the term `jazz' here not so much as a
term for a musical art form as for a mode of being in
the world, an improvisational mode of protean, fluid
and flexible dispositions toward reality suspicious of
`either/or viewpoints.' "

This seems to jibe with the direction that Neo, the
character played by Mr. Reeves, is taking, as he
discovers that the world of the Matrix is not
operating by fixed rules but is something more
permeable and uncertain. Dr. West also pointed out
that "the second Matrix movie actually critiques the
idea of the first. It's suspicious of salvation
narratives. It's deeply anti-dogmatic. The critics
haven't figured that out yet, but the scholars will
get to it."

While in Sydney for the movie shoot, Dr. West said he
and the Wachowskis had bonded over "wrestling with the
meaning of life and the purpose of human existence."
They share an affinity for plucking ideas from
religion, philosophy, pop music, television and
movies, and synthesizing them into a prophetic,
liberating message. They want to make the world a more
philosophical place. (The brothers even gave reading
assignments to all of the principal actors in the
movie.)

Dr. West was coy when asked if he had a longer speech
in the final installment of the trilogy, but he did
say that he will appear in a documentary about the
series where he expounds further on his ideas. Until
then, he has some advice for the audiences going to
see the movie: "You've got to look beneath the special
effects."

{Michael Agger is an editor and writer for the Goings
On About Town section of The New Yorker.}
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Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old May 22nd, 2003, 06:39 PM       
Vibecrew, thanks for posting that. It was a good article, and I am really starting to think that the story for Reloaded was actually better than the first movie. It's definitely more complex.

Placebo, it's been said before, but you obviously didn't pay attention to the movie, or you would already know the answers to some of your questions. The only other alternative is that you're an idiot.

And another thing...THERE IS GOING TO BE A THIRD MOVIE. How can you expect everything to be neatly resolved by the end of part two? How the hell would that make for interesting storytelling??
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Old May 22nd, 2003, 06:55 PM        Matrix
I'm begining to think that too. I'll have to see it again to make a better call.

Even in the first movie there were things I didn't pick up on until I had seen it 2 or 3 times. And one I didn't catch until yesterday. When Neo first gets arrested you see him through a bank of screens all with the same view of him on them. You then pull through a single screen and into the scene. The first time you see the movie it doesn't stick in your mind. But after a few runs it becomes obvious. I thought it was just some strange directors visual concept as they didn't seem to attach to anything. Watching it now it looks to be the same screens used in thee Architect scene in the second movie.

I seriously doubt that much in the film is simply chance or artsy. I think the less you understand it the more important it really is to a particular piece of the plot.
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