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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Aug 10th, 2005, 02:05 PM        Will W meet Cindy Sheehan
I'll admit it's a no win situation, but if he won't go see this woman, who's son died in Iraq and is now waiting by the side of the road in brutal heat, he's not a man.

There's nothing he can take away fom this meeting that would in any way help his standing and it can't benefit him politically. With each day that goes by, any chance he might have of looking like seeing her is anything sincere.

But she's there and she's waiting and if he can't take time off from a five week vacation to go see her, than he's not a Christian, He's not a man, he's not even human.

A lot of people have sacrficed for this war. He might not gain anything from seeing Cindy Sheehan. But it's not like she's asking him to sacrafice what her son has, or what she has.
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Old Aug 10th, 2005, 05:27 PM       
she sounds like a crazy bitch i wouldn't want to meet with either. last year, she described her meeting with the president in glowing terms; now, she's saying he was all rude and shit.
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Old Aug 10th, 2005, 05:36 PM       
A President can't do that. Its simply not done. They don't go to the funerals or anything like that. The most they do is visit the hospitals.

What is he supposed to say? What makes her so special out of the thousands of others who have sacrificed?

How does this make him nto a man or not human?
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Old Aug 11th, 2005, 10:15 AM       
Here's an exeprt from Ms. Sheehan's speech to the Vets For Peace convention. She can be a little strident for my tastes, but as a parent I want to tell you, even the idea of loosing a child can make you a little crazy. Plus, stridency asie, she calls W. a liar, and I think it's way past time to be doing that, calla spade a damn spade.

She wants to yell at W in person. Who could blame her? If W, had the least little bit of spine or humanity, he'd let her. He's the commander in chief, no matter who else signed off on it, this is his war, a war he claims to believe strongly in. he can't take an hour out of his vacation to face one of the ugly consequences of that war? He accepts the scarafice her son made and he can't face an angry mother for one hour of a five week vacation? Anyway, here's the speech:


" I never heard about Veterans For Peace until, I can tell you the exact day I heard about VFP, it was May 4th, 2004, and my son had been dead exactly a month, and I was watching CNN, and something came on - it was a report on Arlington West in Santa Barbara, and we lived about 6 hours north of Santa Barbara, and it was the May 4th before Mother's Day, which was May 8th, and VFP was going to put it up on Sunday, every Sunday - so I called my husband and I said, "There's only one place I want to be on Mother's Day this year, I want to be at Santa Barbara. I want to go and see Arlington West."

When we went, the first time we went, there were a little over 700 crosses. Now there are over 1,800 crosses.

And I'm glad to hear everybody else's words, because somebody's gotta stop those lying bastards. Somebody has to stop them.

I got an email yesterday - if you guys heard, I just had a story published called "Where Do I Live?" - it talks about an Iranian-American who got the shaft because a recruiter liked him, and the recruiter falsified his paperwork, so he ended up in prison.

He's been in prison since November without due process.

Another mother whose son was found dead in Iraq, they told her that he died from a drug overdose. Three months later, they got the toxicology report: no drugs. She was devastated. She said, "I know my son, he did not do drugs." She was told that her son's wife and his battle buddies said in a report that yes, her son abused drugs in Iraq. But when she got that report it said categorically that no, he did not abuse drugs. So how did her son die?

And then there's Kevin and Monica Benderman. Kevin did exactly the right thing and got 15 months in prison. Whereas, like Dahr [Jamail] said, the war criminals in Washington DC, they don't even lose a night's sleep.

Then we have this lying bastard, George Bush, taking a 5-week vacation in a time of war. You know what? I'm never going to get to enjoy another vacation, because of him.

My vacation probably ... this is really sad because I have a really cute dress I was going to wear to the banquet tomorrow night, but I'm either gonna be in jail or in a tent in Crawford, waiting until that jerk comes out and tells me why my son died.

Anyway, I got an email, I kinda got off track, a man emailed me yesterday, I get contacted by all kinds of people with their stories, and he said Cindy, I read everything you write, I read it on LewRockwell.com, he said, "I get tears in my eyes, but today I cried real tears, and I screamed, because my dear sweet nineteen ear-old cousin was killed in Iraq."

And he said, "Cindy, why didn't I save him? Why didn't I knock him out, why didn't I take him to Canada?" and I wrote him back and I said, "You know what? We all think that."

I said to my son not to go. I said, you know it's wrong, you know you're going over there. You know your unit might have to kill innocent people, you know you might die. And he says, "My buddies are going, I have to go." He said, "If I don't go, someone's going to have to do my job, and my buddies will be in danger."

So what really gets me is these chicken-hawks who sent our kids to die, without ever serving in a war themselves. They don't know what it's all about.

Thirty of our bravest young men have already died this month, and it's only the 5th of August. And the tragedy of the marines in Ohio is awful.

But do you guys remember back in March when we were having our 2nd year anniversary of the invasion of Iraq, which was pre-empted by Terry Schiavo, so that's all that was on the news, not 5,000 of us in Fayetteville. Wolf Blitzer said it was insignificant, but they put Terry Schiavo on, and I wrote something then called "The Amazing Hypocrites" and I asked, why does she deserve life more than my son, and the Iraqi people? And more than the other people that this war has killed.

But do you think George Bush will interrupt his vacation and go visit the families of those 20 marines who have died in Ohio this week? No, because he doesn't care, he doesn't have a heart. That's not enough to stop his little "playing cowboy" game in Crawford for 5 weeks.

So, as you can imagine, the grieving parents who lost - lost, I don't like to use that word - whose child was murdered, it's extremely difficult, you can't even get a small scab on our wound, because every day it rips open. Every day, I don't know why I do it because I already know that war is ugly, I already know that war is hard. But I open up the DOD site to see who became an angel while I was sleeping.

And that rips my heart open, because I know there is another mother whose life is going to be ruined that day. So we can't even begin to heal.

So anyway that filth-spewer and warmonger George Bush was speaking after the tragedy of the marines in Ohio, he said a couple things that outraged me.

Seriously outraged me.

And I know I don't look like I'm outraged, I'm always so calm and everything, that's because if I started hitting something, I wouldn't stop 'til it was dead. So I can't even start, cause I know how dangerous that would be, but George Bush was talking, and he never mentioned the terrible incident of those marines, but he did say that the families of the ones who have been killed can rest assured that their loved ones died for a noble cause.

And he also said, he says this often, and this really drives me crazy, he said that we have to stay in Iraq and complete the mission, to honor the sacrifices of the ones who have fallen.

And I say, why should I want one more mother to go through what I've gone through, because my son is dead. You know what, the only way he can honor my son's sacrifice is to bring the rest of the troops home. To make my son's death count for peace and love, and not war and hatred like he stands for.

I don't want him using my son's death or my family's sacrifice to continue the killing. I don't want him to exploit the honor of my son and others to continue the killing. They sent these honorable people to die, and are so dishonorable themselves.

So, as many of you have heard, and I didn't mean to cause any problems with the convention, but I was writing an email to everybody, and I was so mad, like I said, and I just had this brainstorm, I'm going to Dallas, I don't know where Crawford is. I've been in Texas, Casey was stationed at Fort Hood. I drove from northern California to Fort Hood one time - it took, like, 30 hours. And I thought, I could be driving for days to get from Dallas to Crawford!

But I don't care, I'm goin'. And I'm gonna tell them, "You get that evil maniac out here, cuz a Gold Star Mother, somebody whose blood is on his hands, has some questions for him."

And I'm gonna say, "OK, listen here, George. #1, you quit, and I demand - every time you get out there and say you're going to continue the killing in Iraq to honor the fallen heroes by continuing the mission - you say, except Casey Sheehan.'"

"And you say, except for all the members of 'Gold Star Families for Peace' cuz we think not one drop of blood should be spilled in our families' names. You quit doing that. You don't have my permission."

And I'm gonna say, "And you tell me what the noble cause is that my son died for." And if he even starts to say "freedom and democracy," I'm gonna say "bullshit."

You tell me the truth. You tell me that my son died for oil. You tell me that my son died to make your friends rich. You tell me my son died to spread the cancer of Pax Americana, imperialism in the Middle East. You tell me that, you don't tell me my son died for freedom and democracy. "
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Old Aug 11th, 2005, 12:19 PM       
So, she just wants to yell at him.

She has my sympathy and I can't imagine the pain she feels, but she is just wrong here. No emotional plea, no horrible circumstance can change that she cannot rightfully expect a private audience just so she can scream and curse at him.
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Old Aug 11th, 2005, 12:43 PM       
Blanco is right. If Bush met with this person, then he'd have to meet with every Tom, Dick and Harry that had a beef. You know there'd be people petitioning the president to settle property disputes, etc.
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Old Aug 11th, 2005, 01:32 PM       
She can't 'expect' anything. She can ask, and she can protest in such a way that his refusal makes it costly for him, which is exactly what she's doing. Concidering what she's been cost, I think it's fair, and I don't think W is doing himself any favors by not seeing her.

As for the Tom Dick and Harry angle, if W was smart (I know, funny sentence, right?) He go let Sheehan cuss him out as proxy for every grieving relative who wants to cuss him out. And he'd stand there and take it.

For once, a tiny little person has the President of the worlds only super power over a barrel.
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Old Aug 11th, 2005, 03:12 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
She can't 'expect' anything. She can ask, and she can protest in such a way that his refusal makes it costly for him, which is exactly what she's doing. Concidering what she's been cost, I think it's fair, and I don't think W is doing himself any favors by not seeing her.
What every family who as ever sent a son or daughter to war has been cost.

What will be gained by him going there?

Quote:
As for the Tom Dick and Harry angle, if W was smart (I know, funny sentence, right?)
And thats what this is about isn't it? You gave up on right and wrong long ago, Max. You've just dropped down to just taking a cheap shot every chance you get and you see this as yet another way to make yourself feel good about being morally superior to Bush.

Quote:
He go let Sheehan cuss him out as proxy for every grieving relative who wants to cuss him out. And he'd stand there and take it.
Great, then we can get all the living preseidents and congressmen and all other lawmakers to stand there while eveyrone who has a gripe with a policy yel lat them.

White guys who think affirmative action cost them their jobs.

Relatives of drug dealers doing prison time.

Families of all the soldiers who died over seas in a conflict they didn't vote for.

Maybe someone who's pet program lost money to the NEA.

How long do you think this list can get?


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For once, a tiny little person has the President of the worlds only super power over a barrel.
And this is good?
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Old Aug 11th, 2005, 04:52 PM       
"What every family who as ever sent a son or daughter to war has been cost. "

I disagree. Dieing defending your country is one thing. Dieing in a war of agression is something altogether different.

"What will be gained by him going there? "
By whom? Her goal is to make an attempt to bring the war home to him. I think forcing him to look her in the eye and acknowledge real tragedy, real people, real blood spilt OR make him refuse might move more give force to the growing anti war sentiment, it might get us out of Iraq faster and maybe a few more kids, both ours and theirs wouldn't die. I think what she wants is for other mothers not to go through what she's going through. It's a protest, and I think it's working.

If I felt good about feeling morally superior to Bush I'd be awash in happiness all the time. I assure you, I'm not. Don't tell me what's rigt or wrong. My strongly held belief is that this war is wrong and we invaded over lies that maybe, MAYBE W believed, but I don't think Rummy or Chenney or Wolwowitz or any of the others believed for a moment, or even cared about. THAT's wrong. Being unable to account for 9.5 Billion dollars and calling yourself the party of fiscal repsonsability, THAT's wrong. Torture is wrong, rendition is wrong, giving the President to declare someone an enemy combatant and vanish them is wrong, spending billions more on missile defense than on preparing for the next flu pandemic, when one is flat out impossible and the other is a statistical inevitability, that WRONG. And pointless wars that never had to begin with no exit stragtegy are really, really, relly wrong. Those are the wrong things I care about. W. makes Nixon look like a Sunday school picnic.

"Great, then we can get all the living preseidents and congressmen and all other lawmakers to stand there while eveyrone who has a gripe with a policy yel lat them."

No, see, a gripe, that's how I feel about the sullen whitehouse monkey taking more vacation time in a year than most working folks get in a decade. Sure, I'd love to tell him personally that I think his fauz cowboy act is a nauseating farce, but I don't really feel I have that coming to me. Now if on of my kids gets killed in an unjust war that his administration lies about every day, that could possibly rise above the level of a 'gripe'. And unlike her kids trip to Iraq which once he joined the army he had no choice about, W may have signed up to be President, but he doesn't have to go see a woman just 'cause her son got killed and she's waiting in a ditch near his Ranch while he takes five weeks of R and R. That's his choice.

White guys who think affirmative action cost them their jobs don't have dead kids.

Relatives of drug dealers doing prison time might get to watch their kids grow up.

someone who's pet program lost money to the NEA might one day dance at their sons wedding.

Families of all the soldiers who died over seas in a conflict they didn't vote for... I think maybe they can ask. I don't think asking is very big compared to never having grandchildren.

So you see, it's not such a long list. Just people who've suffered the very worst loss imaginable. I would much rather die than see my kids die. I think most parents would feel the same, even if they think dieing in Iraq is noble. I think Cyndi Sheehan is trying to make the raw horror of war come home in a viceral way to as many people as she possibly can, starting with the commander in cheif.

You want to tell me you don't agree with what I think of as right and wrong, you be my guest. But I'm pretty sure I haven't given up just yet.

And yeah. I think it's good that one American Citizen in their suffering has a bully pulpit for a week. She didn't go to Yale, she wasn't born rich, her dad was never president, she's not even Jennifer Anniston and yet through chance and timing she's got the countries ear. If she was selling Amway on her fifteen minutes of fame, I wouldn't think it was so great. But she's not. She's doing what she can to make this war more real to people, hoping against hope it might bring a few more kids home alive than if she did nothing. I think it's better than good. I think it's wonderful.
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Old Aug 11th, 2005, 06:12 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank

I disagree. Dieing defending your country is one thing. Dieing in a war of agression is something altogether different.
We're going to have to disagree on that.

Quote:
By whom?
The country as a whole.

Quote:
Her goal is to make an attempt to bring the war home to him.
Ya, because all the thousands of prtotestors outside his home and office and around the world, the thousands of hate letters, the TV commentary really don't cover it.

Quote:
I think forcing him to look her in the eye and acknowledge real tragedy, real people, real blood spilt OR make him refuse might move more give force to the growing anti war sentiment,
I don't want desiscions like this made on emotion.

Quote:
it might get us out of Iraq faster and maybe a few more kids, both ours and theirs wouldn't die. I think what she wants is for other mothers not to go through what she's going through. It's a protest, and I think it's working.
"here is a crying hysterical woman outside, and I'm goign to let her dictate our foreign policy."

That about sum up what you hope she accomplishes?


Quote:
And unlike her kids trip to Iraq which once he joined the army he had no choice about,
He chose to join the army. Its no secret they can be deployed to God-knows-where at a moments notice. Do you get to decide everything you do at work?

Quote:
White guys who think affirmative action cost them their jobs don't have dead kids.
So sending your kids to bed hungry because you can't afford dinner is no big deal. Gotcha.

Quote:
Relatives of drug dealers doing prison time might get to watch their kids grow up.
And relatives of soldiers already got to see their kids grow up.

Of course, the prisoner may be killed in prison or come out after the few decades a shell of their former self.


Quote:
Families of all the soldiers who died over seas in a conflict they didn't vote for... I think maybe they can ask. I don't think asking is very big compared to never having grandchildren.
Ask for what? A special privalege that has never been granted. And with damn good reason.

Quote:
So you see, it's not such a long list.
Sure, when you refuse to acknowledge them.

Quote:
Just people who've suffered the very worst loss imaginable. I would much rather die than see my kids die. I think most parents would feel the same, even if they think dieing in Iraq is noble. I think Cyndi Sheehan is trying to make the raw horror of war come home in a viceral way to as many people as she possibly can, starting with the commander in cheif.
You think people don't know that war involves death? You think I'm not worried about my cousins over there?

I am, but I know what shit like this is going to do.

Its going to appeal to people's fear and make us weekkneed. Thats going to cause us to half ass these operations and get more people killed in more places. More people like my cousins and more people like her son.

You know whats worse than starting a fight?

Not finishing it.

Like it or not, this fight is on and we are there. By leaving early before there is stability there, we are only going to make the situation worse.

I don't think you want us to just pull up stakes and leave a nice big power vacuum there. Or are you too worried that people will die today?

Quote:

And yeah. I think it's good that one American Citizen in their suffering has a bully pulpit for a week. She didn't go to Yale, she wasn't born rich, her dad was never president, she's not even Jennifer Anniston and yet through chance and timing she's got the countries ear. If she was selling Amway on her fifteen minutes of fame, I wouldn't think it was so great. But she's not. She's doing what she can to make this war more real to people, hoping against hope it might bring a few more kids home alive than if she did nothing. I think it's better than good. I think it's wonderful.
If she was pissed about why we are there or how we are going about things, ya. But she seems to be pissed because her son died. Thats when she started showing up to protests.

As I said, she has my sympathy and I won't spit a bullshit line like I know how she sfeels, but this is simply the wrong course of action.
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Old Aug 12th, 2005, 12:52 PM       
Briefly; We didn't finish the fight in Vietnam, because it was a bad fight. The world did not come to an end, the domino effect never happened and we're trading partners with Vietnam now.

Heaven forfend we should ever be percieved as week kneed. We should always win even unwinable fights even if we were totally wrong to start them.

The world will see our strong knees if more of us die, because we'll kill more of them along the way and that's how you tell who has the strongest knees. If enough people die some day everyone will know we have the strongest knees of all and war will end. The noble cause our soldiers die for is the fabled strength of America's knees which will obe day through their sheer grandeur enforce a Pax Americana.
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Old Aug 12th, 2005, 03:49 PM       
Hey, Max, how important is Vietnam to the world economy?

Are they whole sale producing suicide bombers?

And mock it all you want, but you cannot honestly deny that "power perceived is power achieved".

The value we have for human life and distaste for fighting....well, to them, thats a weakness. By pulling out before the job is done, we will become the paper tiger they keep calling us.

That means that all they will need to get whatever they want is to come out and kill a few people for the cameras. Because they will know we aren't willing to shed a drop blood today to save a pint tomorrow.
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Old Aug 13th, 2005, 02:32 PM       
So when we pull out of Iraq, and it falls to radical Islam, can we send all of the mothers of the next terrorist victims to Ms. Sheehan's house?

Of course you feel terrible for this woman. I personally wish her son never had to go to Iraq. BUT, he was going to go somewhere to fight this war, be it Iraq, or somewhere else. Would she (or even you Max, for that matter) have felt better if he died on Saudi soil, or in Iran or Pakistan?

Whether we like it or not, the war now is in Iraq, and if we withdraw, many more Casey Sheehans will die. And it won't be those who signed up to go get the fight, but rather, those going to work in the morning on a subway, or flying overseas. It'll be men, women, children, and the elderly.

I think people like us should be grateful to Casey Sheehan, while we also understand the motives of a mother who has lost her son.

It is, however, worth mentioning that other members of the Sheehan family aren't as understanding of Cindy:

http://sacunion.com/pages/sacramento/articles/5895
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Old Aug 16th, 2005, 05:21 PM       
Not to toot my own horn, but Chris Matthews asked Ms. Sheehan the same question i asked in this thread. Here was her response:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8972147/

MATTHEWS: Can I ask you a tough question? A very tough question.

SHEEHAN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: All right. If your son had been killed in Afghanistan, would you have a different feeling?

SHEEHAN: I don't think so, Chris, because I believe that Afghanistan is almost the same thing. We're fighting terrorism. Or terrorists, we're saying. But they're not contained in a country. This is an ideology and not an enemy. And we know that Iraq, Iraq had no terrorism. They were no threat to the United States of America.


MATTHEWS: But Afghanistan was harboring, the Taliban was harboring al-Qaida which is the group that attacked us on 9/11.

SHEEHAN: Well then we should have gone after al-Qaida and maybe not after the country of Afghanistan.

MATTHEWS: But that's where they were being harbored. That's where they were headquartered. Shouldn't we go after their headquarters? Doesn't that make sense?

SHEEHAN: Well, but there were a lot of innocent people killed in that invasion, too. ... But I'm seeing that we're sending our ground troops in to invade countries where the entire country wasn't the problem. Especially Iraq. Iraq was no problem. And why do we send in invading armies to march into Afghanistan when we're looking for a select group of people in that country?

So I believe that our troops should be brought home out of both places where we're obviously not having any success in Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden is still on the loose and that's who they told us was responsible for 9/11.
--

Okay, so I'm becoming more and more convinced that this woman is an idiot, which is unfortunate, because partisan groups have turned her into a spokeswoman. It usually helps to have good ones. So we need to do arbitrary things like go after Bin Laden and go after Al Qaeda, but we need to do it without touching the soil they might be hiding on.

So if we were to just toss smart bombs at these countries, would she be happy with that? Or what if the CIA just went in and started bumping people off strategically? Would she support that?

I also feel bad for her, because she is now being used for the death of her son. I think she may truly look back at this and regret it down the road.
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Old Aug 16th, 2005, 07:52 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
So, she just wants to yell at him.

She has my sympathy and I can't imagine the pain she feels, but she is just wrong here. No emotional plea, no horrible circumstance can change that she cannot rightfully expect a private audience just so she can scream and curse at him.
Fortunately, it’s not really about actually getting his audience. It’s about casting dispersions. Bush’s actual stance is “my way or the highway”; and he is getting his way. Not that he had the original thought of invading Iraq - hardly. Oh no, that has been in the queue for a long time. I side with the sentiment that if he had a backbone, he’d stifle his counsel and face his detractors. Unfortunately enough to the minds of said counsel, in doing so, Bush would be compelled to utter real facts (or a reasonable facsimile) regarding the extremely complex (real) reasons for invading Iraq. God forbid he would have to ad lib an answer to the expected questions regarding the Downing street memo. Is there any wonder at all in assuming we’re on safe ground in visualizing this in particular as one thing his traitorous counsel would be and is most likely hush-hushing vigorously? Bush is credible by proxy; let’s hope the rest of ‘em have very good reasons for stretching their own credibility to its limits.
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Old Aug 16th, 2005, 11:32 PM       
Que?

Its not about getting to see him? Then why is she there?

And where were these aspersions before her son was killed? When he voluntarily returned 3 times?

Where was her outrage? There was none until he died and the next mother's day came up.

She is in an emotional tailspin (its easy to see why) and things are going down the crapper for her (she and her husband divorced this year).

She needs lots of support and help. But, she can't get what she's demanding. She already got to see him and said nothing. She had her shot.
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Old Aug 17th, 2005, 03:57 PM       
I think Sheehan is confounding the rightness or wrongness of going to war, with the rightness or wrongness of staying there to fix things up.

One can compare it to surgery. It may not be right to do, say, bariatric surgery on someone who is only slightly overweight. But once the surgery is in progress or complete, it would also be wrong to abandon the patient on the operating table, or deny that patient appropriate postoperative care.

Or, two wrongs don't make a right.

If I were Mrs. Sheehan, I would not demand that troops be pulled out prematurely, but that certain people should be impeached for their actions in going to war in the first place.
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Old Aug 18th, 2005, 11:33 AM       
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Originally Posted by theapportioner
I think Sheehan is confounding the rightness or wrongness of going to war, with the rightness or wrongness of staying there to fix things up.

One can compare it to surgery. It may not be right to do, say, bariatric surgery on someone who is only slightly overweight. But once the surgery is in progress or complete, it would also be wrong to abandon the patient on the operating table, or deny that patient appropriate postoperative care.

Or, two wrongs don't make a right.

If I were Mrs. Sheehan, I would not demand that troops be pulled out prematurely, but that certain people should be impeached for their actions in going to war in the first place.
I agree wholeheartedly; the focus should be on demanding accountability, and not on prematurely removing troops. But see, the issue IS the rightness or wrongness of going to war IN THE FIRST PLACE. That is what sets up the desire to have accountability. And, well, heck yeah - I’m sure this administration is perfectly ok with us discussing whether to bring home troops sooner than later; keeps the scrutiny off of them for another week... mmm... not that that's bad exactly?
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Old Aug 18th, 2005, 11:55 AM       
The American people, presumably, knew just as much about this war last November as they did right now. We knew then that stockpiles of WMDs were not found, and that there was no clear link between Saddam and 9/11.

They still voted for the man. He won. Last year's election was the trial, and the American people voted not guilty. Calling for an impeachment now would look desparate, and that's precisely how the GOP would spin it. Sour grapes, Dems. can't win elected office, so they stir up impeachment hearings.

I think people are turning on this war, but that could've been predicted months ago. We love liberating and kicking ass, we don't like the after stuff so much. I don't however think that means they'd want to impeach the president.
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Old Aug 18th, 2005, 05:10 PM       
Peter Beinart had a good piece on this today.

I tend to disagree with the Sheehan supporters, but I think he put it in a good way:

"In Iraq, by contrast, the government never assumed mass participation. In this era of the professional military, the war has affected many fewer people. And it is exposing cultural fissures not because Americans were asked to serve and refused, but because this time few Americans were even asked.

So a surrogate war has produced a surrogate antiwar movement. This time, mass protests would only cloud the issue. As the parent of a dead soldier, Sheehan has so much moral authority precisely because so few Americans (including so few of us who supported the war) risk sharing her plight."
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Old Aug 19th, 2005, 01:00 AM       
I just think it's funny how after being president for 5 years, bush has been on vacation for almost 1 of them.
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Old Aug 19th, 2005, 12:36 PM       
she left today so i guess it will never happen.
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Old Aug 19th, 2005, 03:40 PM       
she pulled out prematurely :<
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Old Aug 19th, 2005, 04:05 PM       
We're in this thing to deep to take our ball and go home. It's time to finish it, go home and hold trial for the war criminals ... the american ones too.
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Old Aug 19th, 2005, 05:34 PM       
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Originally Posted by drumming4buddha
she left today so i guess it will never happen.
She said she plans on returning. What will everyone else do, wait until she comes back?
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