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Old Nov 13th, 2003, 11:45 AM        Alabama On My Mind
Alabama On My Mind

by Katrina vanden Heuvel

Why do people consistently vote against their self-interest? Consider Alabama, where low-income people, who hardly benefit from tax cuts that jeopardize government services, recently voted down a referendum that tried to shift the burden from overtaxed working people to under-taxed business interests.

Alabama's citizens, as a New York Times editorial comment pointed out, voted "for fewer social services, less education, and a shoddier legal system--to become, that is, more like a third-world nation." Through a decision made by its own residents, Alabama is now entrenched at the bottom of the national rankings in government services.

The national landscape isn't much brighter. Is there some plausible explanation for why Americans support spending more on government programs like education and healthcare, express disappointment that the gap between rich and poor has widened, but then give their support to Bush's tax cuts, which disproportionately benefit the super-rich?

Princeton political scientist Larry Bartels' recent report, Homer Gets a Tax Cut: Inequality and Public Policy in the American Mind, offers some answers. As he points out, there is "a good deal of ignorance and uncertainty about the workings of the tax system" and a failure to connect tax cuts to rising inequality, the future tax burden or the availability of public services. The report also reveals how people are bamboozled by political spin and poor factual information offered up by our infotainment-ized media. (For more on the report, see Alan Krueger's Economic Scene," New York Times Business section, October 15).

I think that one reason why people vote against their self-interest is distrust of government. Alabama's low taxes and limited services are, in fact, legacies of this distrust-- fed equally by big business, fake-populists like the late Governor George Wallace and, now, a growing Republican majority.

Indeed, in interviews around the state on the eve of the referendum, voter disgust toward state government was palpable, with most people saying they did not trust legislators to spend taxpayers' money. These fears are fanned by rightwing think tanks like the Heritage Foundation, which have worked assiduously to denigrate government. As anti-government ideologues like Grover Norquist see it, lowering taxes and downsizing government are the way to destroy the social safety net. (Norquist, after all, promotes the idea that government should be shrunk to a size where it can be drowned in a bathtub.) Then there are the consequences of signals people receive from politicians who have made an art of lowering expectations of what government can do even faster than they disappoint them.

Progressives have to take into account the historic libertarian, even anti-government, impulses of most Americans, and accept the role of market forces in many social solutions, but we must also challenge the widespread belief that because government has sometimes performed poorly in recent years, it cannot perform at all.

What's heartening is that even after decades of rightwing government bashing, a progressive domestic agenda is in fact quite popular with voters, as we know from polls and surveys. The problem is that Democrats have not coherently or consistently articulated that agenda, while the Republicans have hammered away with a disciplined message about the phony dangers of "big government." (Matt Miller effectively skewers this message in his valuable new book The Two Percent Solution:Fixing America's Problems in Ways that Liberals and Conservatives Can Love.) And a Murdochized, conglomeratized media too often peddles spin --not factual information that might contribute to citizens acting in their self-interest.

Progressives could begin by articulating a coherent, alternative vision of the purpose and meaning of government. Opposition to the tax cuts is all very good, but for what purpose, to do what?

Let's invoke President Lincoln's injunction that government exists to do what individuals cannot do for themselves. Let's challenge the view that we, as a society, cannot do things together and put forward new and compelling ideas about the role of government and how it can improve our lives. Let's reclaim the ability to articulate why government is a social good, that investments in schools, infrastructure, health care and social services are worth making and that everyone should pay their fair share. And to the wealthy who aren't paying their fair share--ask yourself if you aren't better off being prosperous and paying taxes than going down in the first-class cabins of a sinking ship.


...

We in Canada are seeing the same sort of government bashing by neo-cons who want to have a toothless central government which is unable and unwilling to protect its citizens from corporate excess, a la the United States.
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Old Nov 13th, 2003, 12:57 PM       
I think the one thing this excellent article leaves out is an ingrained American belief in not just upward mobility, but an egocentric blind faith in assured upward mobility. Deep in our hearst, we all believe that we will soon be wealthy enough for two homes, the best cars, a boat, etc. This will happen Horatio Lager style, through dint of our hard work, pluck and perserverance or through luck. Witness the number of people you personally know who actively believe they will someday win the lottery. We favor the rich because we believe we almost are the rich, we will be next week or next month, sometime soon certainly. This is why the Republican right can so effectively wield the 'Class War' card, as if we aren't deep into one already, and one most people are loosing badly.

EDIT: A disclosure before the oft used refrain of my supposed biterness comes up. While I don't concider myself or my bride well paid, we've worked long and hard. We own a two family home, half of which we rent, and a condominium which we also rent. I am firmly middle class and reasonably securely employed. In terms of America I do perfectly well and am perfectly comfortable. My compassion is for those worse off than I. My Ire is for those who eat their share of the pie , have seconds and scream like babies that 'less deserving' folk are allowd under the table catch their scraps.
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Old Nov 13th, 2003, 01:03 PM       
You're a good man, Max Burbank.
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Old Nov 13th, 2003, 01:05 PM       
I'm just your average Unitarian Liberal/progressive Jew. The only problem I have is buckets of pent up hostility with nowhere to go.
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Old Nov 13th, 2003, 04:12 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
I think the one thing this excellent article leaves out is an ingrained American belief in not just upward mobility, but an egocentric blind faith in funkagroovitalizer upward mobility. Deep in our hearst, we all believe that we will soon be wealthy enough for two homes, the best cars, a boat, etc. This will happen Horatio Lager style, through dint of our hard work, pluck and perserverance or through luck. Witness the number of people you personally know who actively believe they will someday win the lottery. We favor the rich because we believe we almost are the rich, we will be next week or next month, sometime soon certainly. This is why the Republican right can so effectively wield the 'Class War' card, as if we aren't deep into one already, and one most people are loosing badly.

EDIT: A disclosure before the oft used refrain of my supposed biterness comes up. While I don't concider myself or my bride well paid, we've worked long and hard. We own a two family home, half of which we rent, and a condominium which we also rent. I am firmly middle class and reasonably securely employed. In terms of America I do perfectly well and am perfectly comfortable. My compassion is for those worse off than I. My Ire is for those who eat their share of the pie , have seconds and scream like babies that 'less deserving' folk are allowd under the table catch their scraps.
Well said.
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Old Nov 13th, 2003, 08:45 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
I think the one thing this excellent article leaves out is an ingrained American belief in not just upward mobility, but an egocentric blind faith in funkagroovitalizer upward mobility. Deep in our hearst, we all believe that we will soon be wealthy enough for two homes, the best cars, a boat, etc. This will happen Horatio Lager style, through dint of our hard work, pluck and perserverance or through luck. Witness the number of people you personally know who actively believe they will someday win the lottery. We favor the rich because we believe we almost are the rich, we will be next week or next month, sometime soon certainly. This is why the Republican right can so effectively wield the 'Class War' card, as if we aren't deep into one already, and one most people are loosing badly.

EDIT: A disclosure before the oft used refrain of my supposed biterness comes up. While I don't concider myself or my bride well paid, we've worked long and hard. We own a two family home, half of which we rent, and a condominium which we also rent. I am firmly middle class and reasonably securely employed. In terms of America I do perfectly well and am perfectly comfortable. My compassion is for those worse off than I. My Ire is for those who eat their share of the pie , have seconds and scream like babies that 'less deserving' folk are allowd under the table catch their scraps.
See, this is the reason I really don't respect you, Max. Your claims and your supposed actions are in direct opposition to each other. You claimed to have worked hard for what you have in life, and if you have, it is commendable. But your political and social beliefs are in direct opposition to what the "working hard" philosophy is all about.

The common "progressive" or liberal in this day and age is not about working hard. They want the perfect society right NOW. They believe profection is achieveable when the sane person knows that is about as likely as man growing wings and flying in the sky. You follow a path that is ripe for corruption because the progressives truly don't have a path to follow. The only guiding light they have is to be anti-their opposition.

Take the presidental canidates for example: Their political platforms are about as big as a Post-It. They just wish to defeat Bush. What kind of platform would that be to support? The CP-USA is not going to have a canidate this year because their only goal is to get rid of Bush. Does Soros have any idea of what kind of society he wants with that amount of money he wants to use to get Bush out of office? Would people want to vote for someone that has convictions and stances on issues or someone that will only do the opposite of what their oppsition does without any rational thought?


Back to that article: That is something that could have been in a Red paper. "The rich are not paying their fair share of taxes...." That quote always makes me want to spit nails. Max has the balls to talk about the REPUBLICANS using Class Warfare when that is about the only thing Democrats/Liberals/"Progressives"/Communists/Socalists can jabber on about.

The stats are unavoidable that the rich pay per their income vast majority of taxes while people who make little pay little. Corporations never pay taxes. The CONSUMER pays the taxes. When taxes are increased on corporations, they just raise the prices of their products and let the consumer absorb the costs. The idea of corporations and the rich not paying their fair share of taxes is like the lazy kid in class whining that he didn't recieve a gold star because he didn't turn in his paper to begin with.

It is horrible that the gap between the "rich" and "poor" has widened. But let's look at some reasons why:

1) could it be because the rich keep making money and having new ideas which keep them making money while the poor continue to make the piss-poor decisions that keep them poor

2) Could it be that it is the poor themselves that will not want to read, work hard and absorb education and opportunites that are presented to them? Hell, I've had a roomate that wouldn't read a book or do anything outside of school work if you payed him a grand. I think that is pretty damn said, personally. But if he is poor in his life, that's his problem, not mine.


If you want taxes reduced for everyone, you have to get rid of the govt spending we have now, and with the increasing expansion of govt under Bush, I am sorry to say, that may be far off. We need another Reagan revolution. The liberals and leftists need to understand they don't have a clue about leading the country or even a Boy Scout group. Their ideas are great in the Ivory Towers, but they don't resonate with the common Joe, but rather with the common illegal immigrant Hector.
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Old Nov 13th, 2003, 08:53 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
Quote:
We own a two family home, half of which we rent, and a condominium which we also rent. I am firmly middle class and reasonably securely employed. In terms of America I do perfectly well and am perfectly comfortable. My compassion is for those worse off than I.
The common "progressive" or liberal in this day and age is not about working hard. They want the perfect society right NOW.
Did you even read the article, Barbarino?
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Old Nov 13th, 2003, 09:43 PM       
Mmmm... looks like a poorly written editorial if ever there was one.

It's great for propaganda, but that's about it.

Bring me another article when some sources are sighted about government efficiency and why having large amounts of social services is a good thing. Cuz' I speak the language of supply-side, baby.
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Old Nov 14th, 2003, 07:23 AM       
Exactly, OAO. That whole article just was a big bitchfest.
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Old Nov 14th, 2003, 12:45 PM       
You're just one big bitchfest, and yet we still actually put up with you. I think it's because you're an unintentionally funny bitchfest.
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Old Nov 14th, 2003, 12:52 PM       
I didn't know CPUSA even put forward a candidate... :/
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Old Nov 14th, 2003, 02:54 PM       
I'm on a really tight schedule and there's no way I'm going to able to give Vinth the time of day until Tuesday. I'm sorry, I mean the time he deserves.

Suffice it to say, of all the many things that fill my mind woith worry each and every day, the possability that Vinth might not respect me is first and foremost. Well, almost. I guess I worry a little bit more that there might be a magic invisible weasel living in my inner ear telling me what to do. After that, it's Vinth's pssible lack of respect for me all the way.
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Old Nov 15th, 2003, 10:42 AM       
Okay, now I have time.

"your political and social beliefs are in direct opposition to what the "working hard" philosophy is all about. "

You think that because you are emotionally, morally, and intellectually stunted. My personl behavioral code is just that. Personal. The only person I'm in charge of is me. I don't have the narcissistic belief that everyone worse off than me could do as well as I do if only they had a better work ethic becuase I know everyones life is different. In the rare cases where I'm pretty sure the fact someone is worse off than I is their own doing, it doesn't efffect my compassion. Know what one of the biggest iinfluences on my outlook toward others is? The New Testament. Now I know, for you if you don't buy the entire story then the teachings themselves are worthless. But I learned something from the fable of the Fox and the Grapes without thinking fox's can talk.

"The common "progressive" or liberal in this day and age is not about working hard. "

What you know about the 'common progressive' could dance on the head of a pin with room left over for your tolerance, but that's of no consequence. I don't care what the 'common progressive' does. I care what I do, and how I behave.

" They believe profection is achieveable"
'They' may believe whatever 'they' want. I believe no such thing. I take a very dim view of human nature in general. I think societal perfection is probably as impossible as being like Jesus. But I don't think it hurts to strive. I don''t wan't perfection NOW, I want us to TRY all the time. We won't do that either. But we might try off and on to take care of each other, love our enemy, turn the other cheek. Which would be a whole lot better than not at all.

"You follow a path that is ripe for corruption because the progressives truly don't have a path to follow."
And you follow a path which is already corupt, embraces coruption, and write sentences where the first cllause is diametrically opposed to the second.

"The only guiding light they have is to be anti-their opposition."
If it were the only guiding light it would be a good one, concidering the opposition. But there's also social justice, economic justice, the environment, corportate responsability, fighting al Quaida instead of various unnconected sttes and making some actual effort to shore up our real homeland defense, like hardening nuclear plants and chemical factories and funding cops and firemen to repalce the ones off not fighting Al Quaeda. If all those thing are anti-opposition, blame the opposition.

"Their political platforms are about as big as a Post-It."
Big post it. Dean's platform is pretty fully formed at this point, and readily available. Your ignorance regarding it doesn''t effect it in any way. As for the wish to defeat Bush, it will be hard to be president wiithout doing that. I know, it's so boring the way an opposition candidate always wants to dfeat the incumbent, but what are you gonna do?

The CP USA is of absolutely no concern to anyone except paraonoiac right wing conservative loonies. What would be the point of their fielding a candidate? They re marginalized to the point of absurdity. he KKK doesn't have a candidate either. Should we take this an indication they support Bush?
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Old Nov 15th, 2003, 11:11 AM       
"Does Soros have any idea of what kind of society he wants "
Probably, since he's offering matching funds for small donations as opposed to a huge block grant. Tell you what, enter his name in Googol with the words ca,paign donations and I bet you'll come up with some news on what exactly he believes. You think that any time someone disagrees with you, they don't really want or believe anything important. That's because you are intellectually stunted.

"That is something that could have been in a Red paper."
Red. What are you, 1950's boy? Is there enough air in your bomb shelter? Soviet Russia is gone. The Cold War is over. The Evil Empire is gone, and the new big deffinable enemy are 'terrorists', not 'communists'. Red. Jesus Christ on a Crutch. I don't even know if there is a 'red' paper commly available in the US anymore. Who knows, maybe it is, but my point is it's too marginal a viewpoint for even me, a big big Liberal progressive to give a little tin crap about.

I believe in class warfare. It's going on all the time. The rich and powerful class, a tiny minority will always want a huge minority in thrall to them. It's almost impossible to get brich without a small horde of people working for you. They want more wages, better helath care, and the upper class wants to keep more money. Maybe warfare is to stark a term. How about struggle? I'm not accusing republicans of engaging in this struggle which is an omnipresent socital dynamic, I'm accusing them of lieing about it. .Both sides belive in wealth redistribution. The only disagreement is which direction the money flows. The main function of taxes IS to redistribute wealth amongst society. Taxes have been used throughout history to move money. It is my point of view (not some object truth, mind you, but my pint of view) that there should be a lot less disparity between the hourly wage of a janitor and a CEO. There should be some disparity, sure, maybe even a lot. But not this much. Thnigs don't need to be this hard for this many people while I tiny percentage of the population wallows like hogs at a golden trough. Jesus wouldn't have liked it.

"The stats are unavoidable that the rich pay per their income vast majority of taxes while people who make little pay little. "

Did you never get to percentages in math?

"When taxes are increased on corporations, they just raise the prices of their products and let the consumer absorb the costs. "
Only because the rich fight so hard against price caps. California's false eneregy crisis might never have happened if W. had been willing to cap his Enron buddies shameful, criminal earnings.

"It is horrible that the gap between the "rich" and "poor" has widened. "

If you believed that even a tiny little bit, your first answer wouldn't have occure to you. You don't think it's horrible at all. You make it quite clear you think the poor deserve it. hey don't work hard. They don't have new ideas. We know this becuase really smart people don't lie or cheat to make their money or engage in insider traiding or stock manipulation, and they never, never get things they didn't earn through rich friends bailing them out of their costly failures. No one knows that better than our President.

"Could it be that it is the poor themselves that will not want to read, work hard and absorb education and opportunites that are presented to them?"
See? It's not horrible at all. They deserve what they get, they should be hungry and their children should be born into poverty as punishment for the sins of their parents.

"Hell, I've had a roomate that wouldn't read a book or do anything outside of school work if you payed him a grand. "
Oh, for the love of God, not another roomate. Did you live in a hotel?

"if he is poor in his life, that's his problem, not mine."
Jesus could not have said it better. You ever read a Christams Carol? Bet you hated it, Scrooge.

"If you want taxes reduced for everyone, you have to get rid of the govt spending we have now"
I don't want taxes reduced on everyone. I'm fine with the taxes I pay. I wish less of it were spent on war, but hey, that's America. I vote with my vote. I want a parger percentge paid by the ultra wealthy becuase it won't hurt them to have one less yacht, one less mansion, a few less cars in thri fleet, etc.

"Their ideas are great in the Ivory Towers, but they don't resonate with the common Joe, but rather with the common illegal immigrant Hector."

I'm glad you're certain of that. But last election the majority of common joes didn't agree with you. You were lucky on the distribution and you won. That's my principle problem with the right wing. The country gets split down the middle and Bush acts like he had some sort of landslide mandate. You folks are so busy screaming about how you know what the common joe wants, you can't hear commmon joe worth a damn. That's why W. is a fear mongering, little tin despot.
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Old Nov 15th, 2003, 11:31 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
Mmmm... looks like a poorly written editorial if ever there was one.

It's great for propaganda, but that's about it.
You're kidding, right? Please, PLEASE tell me that the guy who regularly updates us with blatant Party propaganda EVERY DAMN DAY from lp.org and the Cato Institute ISN'T calling something "poorly written" and "propaganda"?? PLEASE, GOD, PLEASE!!!!

Quote:
Bring me another article when some sources are sighted about government efficiency and why having large amounts of social services is a good thing. Cuz' I speak the language of supply-side, baby.
Hmm, how about you look at every other state in the union, besides Alabama, and that might do it. Look where Alabama ranks in basic stats, oh, and better yet!, a trip to Alabama might do you well. I-Mockery field trip!

EDIT: I hate it when the days get all confustigated.
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Old Nov 16th, 2003, 08:14 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore
You're kidding, right? Please, PLEASE tell me that the guy who regularly updates us with blatant Party propaganda EVERY confustigated DAY from lp.org and the Cato Institute ISN'T calling something "poorly written" and "propaganda"?? PLEASE, GOD, PLEASE!!!!
The problem isn't that it's propaganda, the problem is that it is poorly written. There is no empirical or theoritical analysis in this editorial, it just goes on foolish assumptions without looking any further.

It reminds me of something Barbara Streisand would write.

Quote:
Hmm, how about you look at every other state in the union, besides Alabama, and that might do it. Look where Alabama ranks in basic stats, oh, and better yet!, a trip to Alabama might do you well. I-Mockery field trip!
Hmm, how about you do some other research that proves low taxes and social services caused all of this. You cannot just say that one thing caused the other without any basis for the statement.

After all, America has a lower tax rate than most other industrialized countries, so that must be why we are so prosperous, right?
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Old Nov 17th, 2003, 09:29 AM       
Now and Later, I've seen you post articles with zero empiracal evidence or sourciing. I think your objection is the conclusion. Unless you've decided to turn over a new leaf. It's human nature to think an unsourced article that agrees with a position you already take is good. It's hypocrisy to suggest that ONLY unsourced articles which agree with ones own conclusions are valid.
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Old Nov 17th, 2003, 04:11 PM       
I said theoritical or empirical; you don't need both, and I value theory much higher (hence why I consider myself a follower of Austrian economics - institutionalist economics frequently examine empirical facts, but not the background to them). At least the articles I post attempt a logical explanation.
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Old Nov 20th, 2003, 12:57 PM       
BUMP.

Just because I'm collecting things that demonstrate Vinth's inability to follow through.

I'm thinking of chagning his nickname from Vinth Clambake to Vinth Quitter. Although Vinth Chapstick is not out of the running yet.
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