Go Back   I-Mockery Forum > I-Mockery Discussion Forums > Philosophy, Politics, and News
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
theapportioner theapportioner is offline
Mocker
theapportioner's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Old Mar 17th, 2003, 01:04 AM        Endgame for Diplomacy
So the United States, with Britain and Spain, have issued a Monday ultimatum for the UN to support the war. While not inconceivable, I doubt the canvassing for votes will succeed, and France does not seem to be bluffing. The bombs will follow.

Domestically, support for the war is strong, and the opposition isn't strong enough to challenge. Media acquiescence and even open support has obscured this impending war's obvious moral illegitimacy. Most likely the war will be done with in a blink of an eye, not long enough for opposition to grow and make a difference.

On Iraq: For awhile I supported the war, but joined the opposition when I realized that the justness, or the moral case depends on not only on Saddam Hussein but on what happens afterwards. The United States, however, does not have the heart for reconstruction and democracy building. Others may cite Japan, but that was during a different time and different circumstances entirely. Less anachronistic cases of Panama, Yugoslavia, and Afghanistan aren't nearly as cheerful. If Iraq becomes a shining beacon of democracy, then I will happily admit to have been proven wrong, but history gives me no confidence that this will occur.

France/Germany and Britain/Spain/others: Interesting times for the future of Europe, and especially the European Union. NATO is dead, and Europe may one day create an EU army. Though the European leaders are divided, European people are very much in agreement. The EU will ascend.

United Nations: The battle for its relevance has been overdramatized, as it's been pretty irrelevant for all of its history.

The Middle East: Allies and enemies come and go, but as far as American foriegn policy goes, little has fundamentally changed since after 9-11. It's as colonialistic and hegemonistic as always. A remarkable opportunity in Iran for democratic revolution risks being squandered, partly because of American myopia.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
Mocker
The_Rorschach's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WestPac
Old Mar 17th, 2003, 01:27 AM       
Well, I can't argue with any of this. Its just about where I stand on this topic also. Likewise, I'm hoping for the best in a bad situation. America isn't the same country it was fifty years ago - for better and for worse - and patriots aren't what they once were. I'm dreading anything other than a peaceful resolution because I honestly fear otherwise it will only further alienate the Unites States from the world at large
Reply With Quote
  #3  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
Mocker
KevinTheOmnivore's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Old Mar 17th, 2003, 03:22 AM       
Quick war, minimal casualties. That's pretty much all we can hold out hope for now.....
Reply With Quote
  #4  
ItalianStereotype ItalianStereotype is offline
Legislacerator
ItalianStereotype's Avatar
Join Date: May 2002
Location: HELL, where all hot things are
Old Mar 17th, 2003, 04:00 AM       
we already know its going to be a quick war with minimal casualties, iraq is NOT a militarily significant power. i think it has also already been stated that some 36 billion dollars are going towards rebuilding both afghanistan and iraq, i simply dont see why you are so worried about this war. do you want to appease saddam? bolster his iron grip when we can see it slipping? diplomacy has already failed and it is the UNs fault, that is including the US. in fact, diplomacy at this point is only endangering our soldiers even more. while france and germany try to bog the US down with procedures and red tape saddam is busy moving missiles westward to launch at israel and preparing artillery to assault the kurds in the north and the kuwaiti border in the south. so please, enlighten me as to how you see this "problem"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Miss Modular Miss Modular is offline
Little Monster
Miss Modular's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Haus of Gaga
Old Mar 17th, 2003, 09:35 AM       
I had a premonition from the beginning that we were going to go to war with Iraq no matter what. As a citizen of the United States, It's still important to exercise my opinion. I will continue to do so. One can only hope the opposition grows stronger.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
theapportioner theapportioner is offline
Mocker
theapportioner's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Old Mar 17th, 2003, 10:02 AM       
Forgot to add something about multilateralism -- there's more to the future than GWB and successors may try to repair the damage. In retrospect, much of it was entirely needless -- the US displayed a completely unecessary chest thumping attitude from the beginning and this perhaps did most to damage international perception of us. A diplomatic faux pas, as the French would say. The current momentum is driving us towards a multipolarist world but it's still hard to imagine another world power or powers acceding to superpower level.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
Mocker
KevinTheOmnivore's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Old Mar 17th, 2003, 12:47 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItalianStereotype
we already know its going to be a quick war with minimal casualties, iraq is NOT a militarily significant power.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think oue own U.S. generals are torn over this notion. What makes you so confident? I genuinely would like to know, and any sources you can provide would be appreciated.

Baghdad is a city of roughly 5 million people. That's JUST Baghdad. You think casualties will be low when trying to find a needle in a hay stack???

Quote:
i think it has also already been stated that some 36 billion dollars are going towards rebuilding both afghanistan and iraq, i simply dont see why you are so worried about this war.
Well, if war in general dooesn't at least disturb you slightly, then you are certainly a better man than I....

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't most of Afghanistan still a warzone? How many of those "liberated" people are going to see that money? How much is that money in relative terms, taking our GNP compared to other nations (I mean, in terms of what nations such as Canada and England are giving)...?

Quote:
do you want to appease saddam? bolster his iron grip when we can see it slipping? diplomacy has already failed and it is the UNs fault, that is including the US.
I'm glad you can at least conceed that America had a role in this failure, but I think it's language like the stuff you justed used that greatly led to diplomatic failure. "Hussein is Hilter, and today in the UN was Munich." This kind of sensational language makes it hard to seriously discuss OTHER diplomatic options, don't ya think???

Quote:
in fact, diplomacy at this point is only endangering our soldiers even more. while france and germany try to bog the US down with procedures and red tape saddam is busy moving missiles westward to launch at israel and preparing artillery to assault the kurds in the north and the kuwaiti border in the south. so please, enlighten me as to how you see this "problem"
Does it strike you as shocking that the man will become hostile and desperate??? Most CIA intelligence up to even about a week ago has practically guaranteed this kind of behavior. Is it "diplomacy" that has Saddam mobilizing, or is it perhaps the heavy mobilization being conducted by both the U.S. and Britain that has him fortifying his borders...? Lets be fair about this, the whole time "diplomacy" HAD been relevant, there were guns and planes aiming at Iraq. Some say THAT is what has caused Saddam to become more compliant with inspections. They may be right. However I feel it should be acknowledged that the influx of weapons and troops into the Middle East over the past few weeks only proves that America was never truly interested in diplomacy.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

   


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:09 PM.


© 2008 I-Mockery.com
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.