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Old Jul 21st, 2004, 08:17 AM        Sandy Berger: Idiot
Bad idea, bad timing, bad, bad, bad.

What could there possibly be in the documents he took that would be MORE of a problem than his having taken them?

That's the ONLY thing which makes me think it at all possible that he took them by accident. The fact that it is so outrageously dumb.
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Old Jul 21st, 2004, 12:19 PM       
Sandy Berger’s Heavy Lifting
The troubling details of the Archives document removal.

In Washington this morning, government officials are trying to piece together the facts of the Sandy Berger case in an attempt to understand what the former Clinton administration national-security adviser was trying to accomplish when he took highly classified documents from the National Archives.

Berger, who yesterday quit his position as an informal adviser to the Kerry campaign, was appointed by former President Clinton to vet Clinton-administration documents before those documents were turned over to the September 11 investigating commission. Berger claims that as he went through a large number of documents last fall, he inadvertently put a few in his briefcase and took them home. "In the course of reviewing over several days thousands of pages of documents on behalf of the Clinton administration in connection with requests by the September 11 commission, I inadvertently took a few documents from the Archives," Berger said in a written statement. "When I was informed by the Archives that there were documents missing, I immediately returned everything I had except for a few documents that I apparently had accidentally discarded."

But it appears that some of the evidence in the case casts doubt on Berger's explanation. First, Berger has reportedly conceded that he knowingly hid his handwritten notes in his jacket and pants in order to sneak them out of the Archives. Any notes made from classified material have to be cleared before they can be removed from the Archives — a common method of safeguarding classified information — and Berger's admission that he hid the notes in his clothing is a clear sign of intent to conceal his actions.

Second, although Berger said he reviewed thousands of pages, he apparently homed in on a single document: the so-called "after-action report" on the Clinton administration's handling of the millennium plot of 1999/2000. Berger is said to have taken multiple copies of the same paper. He is also said to have taken those copies on at least two different days. There have been no reports that he took any other documents, which suggests that his choice of papers was quite specific, and not the result of simple carelessness.

Third, it appears that Berger's "inadvertent" actions clearly aroused the suspicion of the professional staff at the Archives. Staff members there are said to have seen Berger concealing the papers; they became so concerned that they set up what was in effect a small sting operation to catch him. And sure enough, Berger took some more. Those witnesses went to their superiors, who ultimately went to the Justice Department. (There was no surveillance camera in the room in which Berger worked with the documents, meaning there is no videotape record of the incidents.)

The documents Berger took — each copy of the millennium report is said to be in the range of 15 to 30 pages — were highly secret. They were classified at what is known as the "code word" level, which is the government's highest tier of secrecy. Any person who is authorized to remove such documents from a special secure room is required to do so in a locked case that is handcuffed to his or her wrist.

It is not clear why Berger would focus solely on the millennium-plot report. But it is clear that the report has been the object of intense discussions during the September 11 investigation.

The report was the result of a review done by Richard Clarke, then the White House counterterrorism chief, of efforts by the Clinton administration to stop terrorist plots at the turn of the year 2000. At several points in the September 11 commission hearings, Democrats pointed to the millennium case as an example of how a proper counterterrorism program should be run. But sources say the report suggests just the opposite. Clarke apparently concluded that the millennium plot was foiled by luck — a border agent in Washington State who happened to notice a nervous, sweating man who turned out to have explosives in his car — and not by the Clinton administration's savvy anti-terrorism work. The report also contains a number of recommendations to lessen the nation's vulnerability to terrorism, but few were actually implemented.

The after-action review became the topic of public discussion in April when Attorney General John Ashcroft mentioned it in his public testimony before the September 11 commission. "This millennium after-action review declares that the United States barely missed major terrorist attacks in 1999 and cites luck as playing a major role," Ashcroft testified. "It is clear from the review that actions taken in the millennium period should not be the operating model for the U.S. government."

In May, a government official told National Review Online that the report contains a "scathing indictment of the last administration's actions." The source said the report portrayed the Clinton administration's actions as "exactly how things shouldn't be run." In addition, Clarke was highly critical of the handling of the millennium plot in his book, Against All Enemies.

It is not clear how many copies of the report exist. Nor is it clear why Berger was so focused on the document. If he simply wanted a copy, it seems that taking just one would have been sufficient. But it also seems that Berger should have known that he could not round up all the known copies of the document, since there were apparently other copies in other secure places. Whatever the case, the report was ultimately given to the September 11 Commission.





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http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200407210837.asp
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Old Jul 22nd, 2004, 09:36 AM       
Ugly, ugly, ugly and stupid. Berger should spill NOW. Prevarication and lies only make shit like this worse.

Another corrupt government official desperatley trying to cover their ass. Surprise, surprise.

Stupid fucker.
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Old Jul 22nd, 2004, 01:56 PM       
I'm just curious on what the fuck he was up too.
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Old Jul 22nd, 2004, 02:48 PM       
What kills me about this is that it's not supposed to matter what he was doing, only that the Republicans waited until the eve of the release of a report that was soooo obviously not going to be anything important to break the news of Berger's piniata pockets in hopes of distracting us from the 9/11 report.
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Old Jul 23rd, 2004, 05:35 PM       
Yeah, perhaps somebody could help me out here, because I'm struggling to see how this is a story at all. A few days ago, while listening to that dipshit Sean Hannity's radio show, he was making a HUGE deal of the supposed "pants stuffing." That claim has since been denied by Berger, and it had first been uttered by Saxby Chambliss, so take that for what it's worth.

Secondly, everything he copied had already been on record. It's not like what he had taken would've burned either campaign. This to me sounds like a goof, and Republicans are making a huge ordeal out of it. Now, I've heard one theory that it was perhaps leaked by the Democrats, just so it could run its course now rather than in October. We also know that the White House already knew about this, and was sitting on it. I dunno, anybody? Why does this matter....?
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Old Jul 25th, 2004, 02:37 PM       
It matters because Berger might have been trying to destroy evidence that would hurt Clinton's legacy or Kerry's chances in the upcoming election.....we need to find out exactly what he stole and why.

"to break the news of Berger's piniata pockets in hopes of distracting us from the 9/11 report." - preechr

There was nothing in the 9/11 report that hurt Bush. In fact, it exonerated Bush......

No matter how it turns out.....this hurts Kerry and that's what I like about it.
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Old Jul 25th, 2004, 05:29 PM       
Know what I like about you?


No, seriously, I'm asking.
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Old Jul 25th, 2004, 06:12 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Raygun
It matters because Berger might have been trying to destroy evidence that would hurt Clinton's legacy or Kerry's chances in the upcoming election.....we need to find out exactly what he stole and why.
The information had already been on public record, if there had been anything truly damaging there, the GOP would've already been on it like white on rice. This is a Mickey Mouse issue intended to distract us from the Senate Intelligence Committee's conclusions, aswell as the 9/11 panel.


Quote:
There was nothing in the 9/11 report that hurt Bush. In fact, it exonerated Bush......
You have permission to say this after you've actually read the report. But before you go buy it, you should whet your appetite with the Intelligence Committee's conclusions: http://intelligence.senate.gov/conclusions.pdf

See, it actually helps to read these things yourself and then draw your own conclusions, rather than letting Sean Hannity or Newxmax do the work for you.

Quote:
No matter how it turns out.....this hurts Kerry and that's what I like about it.
Precisely. The most stunning things about your post is that it's clear two things are most important to you-- "exonerating" Bush, and hurting Kerry. It doesn't phase you at all to discover that both bodies, the committee and the 9/11 panel, have exposed massive holes in our intelligence gathering. Tey have exposed problems like the lack of imagination, creativity, and suffer from "groupthink," clearly driven by the desire to produce WMD in Iraq, rather than investigating for those weapons. No, national security, a war in Iraq, these things don't phase you. Protecting the gains of the Republican Party, that's all that truly matters to Ronnie "party hack" Raygun.
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Old Jul 26th, 2004, 10:23 AM       
Yeah, I gotta say, apart from proving that Sandy Berger is a collasal idiot, this is a non issue.

And I agree with Kev, Naldo. Don't you think anything about the unanimous, bipartisan conclusion of this report? I mean, since it's kind of bears pretty heavily on the future safety of our country which you claim to be so dedicated to, the principles of which you claim I hate? Are you seriously that shallow?
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Old Jul 26th, 2004, 12:02 PM       
Yeah! A collasal idiot that Clinton had as a national security advisor and Kerry who Kerry had directing his campaign......

I guess both of them are a bad judge of character.....

This is bad bad bad for you libs....
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Old Jul 26th, 2004, 01:42 PM       
he didn't direct Kerry's campaign, fucknut. He was an unpaid unofficial advisor.
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Old Jul 26th, 2004, 03:35 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Raygun
Yeah! A collasal idiot that Clinton had as a national security advisor and Kerry who Kerry had directing his campaign......

I guess both of them are a bad judge of character.....

This is bad bad bad for you libs....
Off what are you basing such a claim? Polls? You must be strictly reading the Fox News polls, because this hasn't hurt Kerry. The convention has completely overshadowed this matter, as have the 9/11 panel reports, and the Senate intelligence committee conclusions. ALL of these things are more important than this spin attempt to harm Kerry.....
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Old Jul 27th, 2004, 09:18 AM       
I think you're right, Nalds. Using Berger as an advisor does show bad judgement of character. They should have seen that at some point, the guy might steal. Not as bad judgement as saying the director of the CIA who called the WMD case a 'slam dunk' did an excellent job or hiring a man convicted of lying to congress to run an intelligence orperation or chumming around with Ken Lay and then denying him three times bfore the cock crowed, or thinking Ahmed Chalabi was a swell source of intelligence, but still, pretty bad.
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Old Jul 27th, 2004, 09:55 AM       
Curt Weldon says (toward the bottom) this isn't the first time Sandy seriously violated secrecy protocols for political reasons, which could be his only possible general motivation in this case.

I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHY HE DID IT!! Such an extreme thing to do for less than a very important reason. Not quite another Daniel Ellsburg, I'm sure, but my interest is piqued. PIQUED, I TELL YOU!!!
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How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Jul 27th, 2004, 10:37 AM       
Yeah, I have to admit I'm very curious.

Th coverage is so fucked up at this point (maybe irreversibly so) It's almost impossible to parse out what actrually happened. The only thing that all the reports I've read agree on is he toook documents and some of them have not been returned, and he says they're destroyed, probably.

The things I'd like to track down as being either true or not are-

Did he stuff things in his pants and socks? If so, and someone saw that he did this, why didn't they stop him? The 'sting' aspect of this strikes me as bizarre. I mean, if someone has documents in their socks, you don't need to 'sting' them. You say "Sandy, stop right there." no one puts documenst in their socks by accident.

Did he take every copy of a speciffic document? If he took multiple copies of something, that's way odd, but why?? It's not as if those are the only place the copies are, and it was a fair bet that anything he was looking at had already been seen by the panel. If he removed a singkle document , there's some plausability to the 'by accident' scenario. If he took all the comies, not so much plausability.

I'd like to see a good solid piece of reporting on what's actually known bout the charges and the investigation. A lot of what I've read relies on faux indignant shrieking from the House of Representatives on the one hand, and Sandy's lawyer on the other. I'm sorry, I don't find ewither of those sources reliable.

I'm curious as hell.

BUT, and this is a big but, if you want to vote for a candidate who has never relied on the device of people with questionable ethics or criminal records, you'd need to vote for Ralph Nader.
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Old Jul 31st, 2004, 11:54 AM       
Wall Street Journal reports:
link

Quote:
Officials looking into the removal of classified documents from the National Archives by former Clinton National Security Adviser Samuel Berger sayno original materials are missing and nothing Mr. Berger reviewed was withheld from the commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.

Several prominent Republicans, including House Speaker Dennis Hastert and House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, have voiced suspicion that when Mr. Berger was preparing materials for the 9/11 Commission on the Clinton administration's antiterror actions, he may have removed documents that were potentially damaging to the former president's record.

The conclusion by archives officials and others would seem to lay to rest the issue of whether any information was permanently destroyed or withheld from the commission.

Archives spokeswoman Susan Cooper said officials there "are confident that there aren't any original documents missing in relation to this case." She said in most cases, Mr. Berger was given photocopies to review, and that in any event officials have accounted for all originals to which he had access.

That included all drafts of a so-called after-action report prepared by the White House and federal agencies in 2000 after the investigation into a foiled bombing plot aimed at the Millennium celebrations. That report and earlier drafts are at the center of allegations that Mr. Berger might have permanently removed some records from the archives. Some of the allegations have related to the possibility that drafts with handwritten notes on them may have disappeared, but Ms. Cooper said archives staff are confident those documents aren't missing either.

Daniel Marcus, general counsel of the 9/11 Commission, said the panel had been assured twice by the Justice Department that no originals were missing and that all of the material Mr. Berger had access to had been turned over to the commission. "We are told that the Justice Department is satisfied that we've seen everything that the archives saw," and "nothing was missing," he said.
He may have just been another target for repub smear attacks.
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Old Jul 31st, 2004, 06:40 PM       
Huh. The "Wall Street Journal.". The "Justice Department". What other fag liberal organizations are you going to source?
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Old Aug 1st, 2004, 01:58 PM       
Come on, guys! You have got to see that the issue is not what he took but WHY he knowingly violated security protocols. It was a huge risk for him to take, and the excuse that he has always been such a sloppy person that when he served as NSA for Clinton they had to give him a team of secretaries to keep him organized... well, doesn't that pretty much indicate he wasn't exactly suited to do that job effectively?

The very first articles on the topic said most of the documents were copies, and any originals he had access to were stored elsewhere as copies, and that his actions in no way concealed any information from anyone that needed to see it. The issue is not any access by anyone cleared to see the stuff he took, it's that you simply do not take this stuff home with you.

Does Sandy Berger still have any sort of security clearance at all now? I just can't see how he could. If not, he'll never be able to hold another executive branch position, and he knew that was at risk when he took those documents. I suppose it's possible that a future Democrat's administration might be able to swing him some status he has proven to no longer deserve, but do we want a government that can forcibly bend the rules that much?

Think about it. There's a very good reason these documents are guarded so heavily. The after-action report they're talking about is just not something you'd want to see in the hands of someone who might be willing to plan a similar attack on America. I'm sure it highlights many security holes that could have been exploited, and we all know government's not so quick about fixing things like that. Sandy doesn't have to be proven an actual "spy" here so much as it's obvious that his carelessness obviates the need to deny him access to secret information in the future. He is a huge security hole that can easily, and obviously should, be patched.

If those documents were disposed of within government, they'd be burned or shredded into pulp (not just ribbons.) Sandy says he probably threw them away at home (or somewhere, he doesn't recall.) Do we want this guy handling this material in the future? If Condoleeza Rice was the one caught doing this, would you say she was just the victim of smear attacks?

I just can't believe he thought he would ever have a job in any future possible after being caught, and I can't believe he thought he'd get away with it... He knew the rules and the consequences of breaking them. WHAT was so important? WHY would he do this? WHY so many copies of the same report, and if he thought he was removing uncopied originals (which is VERY doubtful*,) what purpose could that have served?

-------------------------------
*Everything is copied so many times it's about impossible to believe he might have thought he was removing all of the evidence of something. Why so many copies of the same thing then? It makes no sense...
-------------------------------

The members of the Republican Attack Machine that are making ridiculous accusations about this are simply trying to keep this in the news in order to gain political points for the election. They are not necessarily obligated to explain how security really works to a press corps too damn lazy to look up the details for themselves, so they simplify the issues for shock value.

The real question is to what end would Sandy Berger remove himself from government permanently, and if he had some sort of assurances from the Dems that these violations could be overlooked, what does that say about the state of government security in our future? I also can't help but wonder if this investigation is going to look back at his "sloppiness" when he served as NSA and what kind of security problems he could have caused back then. He had access to EVERYTHING. If this is a long established pattern of behavior for him, that's a pretty serious problem.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Aug 3rd, 2004, 11:05 AM       
I agree with pretty much everything you said. I think there are two entirely seperate issues here, one being the actual impact of Berger taking these documents at this time (negligable) and the other being what the hell did he think he was doing and what purpose did he suppose it would serve. I'd say how this reflects or raises questions about Sandy's past performance is legitimate, and a side issue of question two.

I'd like to know more. The issue is so muddied by partisan mouth foam and exctable media coverage, the chances of us ever knowing much of the truth, or seperating any truth that comes out from fiction strikes me as just about zero.

I didn't mean to imply that my feeling that the answer to question one is "It doesn't make any difference" meant that the whole issue of what the fuck Berger thought was being accomplished isn't a big question, or that it should be dismissed.
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