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glowbelly glowbelly is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2004, 09:23 AM        army pvt kelley s. prewitt, branden f. oberleitner
i participated in a rally yesterday to remember the 565+ casualties that have been the result of the invasion of iraq. it was a peaceful gathering. we lined up a main street in akron, and each read off 2 names. i had the ones in this thread's title. the weather was CRAP, so only about 230 people showed up, but it was a pretty impressive turnout, nonetheless.

i almost cried when it was my turn to read off their names. these guys were 24 and 20 respectively. such a shame...

here's a link to an article about it:

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/local/8242408.htm
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2004, 10:21 AM       
I was going to ask if everyone went to March 20 anti-occupation rallies, but I got sick and couldn't make it to my own rally...

On Anzac (Australian and New Zealand Army Corps) day when I was about ten, I read off a list of names and I bawled my eyes out. I think everyone would get emotional about young people being killed, no matter what side you are on.
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Old Mar 21st, 2004, 10:44 AM       
i should clarify my first statement and say that we read off the american casualties. what was nice about the event is that the person who organized it made a little speech about how today we remembered OUR fallen soldiers, but to not forget the thousands of iraquis that have been killed also.

it was quite a sight to see 230 people lined up, each holding 2 pictures of american soldiers that died in iraq.

it really hit me hard when i got my two soldiers names and i realized that they were both younger than me when they died.
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Royal Tenenbaum Royal Tenenbaum is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2004, 11:44 AM       
No one forced them to join the army. You join the army, you should be prepared to die; it's sad but true. Sure, it was a stupid cause, but America has fought in tons of stupid wars, and people joining the army are aware of that (hopefully). Now, if they had been drafted and forced to fight, than I would say it was terrible.
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Old Mar 21st, 2004, 11:54 AM       
it's terrible when anyone dies. period.

as for the argument that they knew what they were getting into when they signed up for the service all i have to say is so what? that doesn't take away from the fact that these were brave men and women and that they DIED in a war that many are calling unjust and uncalled for.

not to mention the fact that a lot of the troops that are over in iraq now are reservists. these are people who joined the armed forces on a part time basis, and probably were lured in by the fact that they would only have to show up a couple of weeks a year and have their education paid for. they have families: wives, children, etc...go tell your theory of "it's their fault for signing up" to them.
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Old Mar 21st, 2004, 12:22 PM       
Ehh... I have to agree with Solid a bit here. Yeah, it sucks that they died in a stupid war, but still, if you join the army you have to assume a certain amount of risk. If you think that your family and/or loved ones couldn't handle not having you around, then you shouldn't be joining the army to begin with.

I don't care if it's the reserves, either. The whole point of a military reserve is to rotate your forces so your troops are always fresh. You *will* be sent to fight eventually if the war lasts long enough.

I was actually amused when I saw stories here on the news about the reservists in North Dakota whining about how they didn't know they were going to be deployed and that they were just weekend warriors. How can your perception of the military become so distorted? It's not some club that you join just so you can say that you're a patriotic American and get to shoot an assault rifle and a shitload of equipment that you don't have to pay for. What did they seriously expect? You don't get trained to operate multi-million dollar weaponry just for the hell of it.

There's no such thing as part-time duty in the army. The government doesn't give you stuff for free; you're expected to put your balls on the line eventually. That's the way reserves and militias have worked for thousands of years. "I don't want to go" isn't a valid excuse. If you really don't want to go, don't enlist and don't vote for a warmonger.

If they still sign up, and then whine about being put in the line of fire, well, that's what you get for being a redneck.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2004, 01:34 PM       
I'm afraid I might have to take the cynical road here, too. I was, and still am totally against the war. But the point that gets lost here, one that GAsux raised in another thread, is that this war (despite its blunders) was a quick and efficient war. The life lost was minimal. Now, I wish not one of our troops were subjected to it, but as the others have said, they DID join the U.S. military.

And another point of contention-- I understand that most on this board were against the war, but where does everyone stand on the future...? Do you all believe in the "End the Occupation" line...? Do you want all of our troops out of there immediately? Does that add up??
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Old Mar 21st, 2004, 01:47 PM       
To pull out of Iraq right away would be retarded. It can't be done. The country would be left in anarchy.

The "coalition of the willing" made this mess, so now they have deal with it. Helping people that don't want to be helped is really difficult. This isn't like rebuilding post-war Germany or post-war Japan where the people were crushed and demoralized and just wanted to go back to living normal lives. Many of these people legitimately hate Westerners, and the ones that don't have huge targets on their backs. Hell, they are willing to kill and injure dozens of their own people to get at a few Americans.

Short of exterminating all Muslims, I don't think stuff like that will end any time soon.
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Mar 22nd, 2004, 10:35 AM       
Quote:
I don't care if it's the reserves, either. The whole point of a military reserve is to rotate your forces so your troops are always fresh. You *will* be sent to fight eventually if the war lasts long enough.

I was actually amused when I saw stories here on the news about the reservists in North Dakota whining about how they didn't know they were going to be deployed and that they were just weekend warriors. How can your perception of the military become so distorted? It's not some club that you join just so you can say that you're a patriotic American and get to shoot an assault rifle and a shitload of equipment that you don't have to pay for. What did they seriously expect? You don't get trained to operate multi-million dollar weaponry just for the hell of it.

There's no such thing as part-time duty in the army. The government doesn't give you stuff for free; you're expected to put your balls on the line eventually. That's the way reserves and militias have worked for thousands of years. "I don't want to go" isn't a valid excuse. If you really don't want to go, don't enlist and don't vote for a warmonger.
That's the reality, not everyone sees it though. Recruiters are happy to cover it up, as well.

Economic conscription is rife in Australia, and I am sure it is worse in the US.

What is the percentage of poor, Mexicans, and Blacks that are in the US army, compared to, say, rich whites that can afford higher education?

I know I was going to join the army because I couldn't afford University. Lucky for me I didn't join.

If people are silly enough to believe the Govt. when they say that Saddam was behind 9/11, then people are silly enough to believe the Govt. when they say you can join the reserves, get good pay, get an education, and only go to war on Saturdays.
Joining any imperialist army is silly full stop, really. This doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for them.

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Many of these people legitimately hate Westerners, and the ones that don't have huge targets on their backs
I think I know what you mean to say, but simply not hating westerners doesn't make you a target. It is active collaboration. Just like every occupied country in any war ever. The Workers Party of Iraq does not hate westerners, and they are a major contribter to the resistance.

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Hell, they are willing to kill and injure dozens of their own people to get at a few Americans.
Their "own people" are usualy US collaborators ie: Not their own people.

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Short of exterminating all Muslims, I don't think stuff like that will end any time soon.
Or all Americans (what do you call people that live in the USA, apart from 'Amercans'? USAsians? United Staters?

EDIT: Kevin, I support the end of the occupation.
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Old Mar 22nd, 2004, 12:14 PM       
[quote="Zhukov"]
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Or all Americans (what do you call people that live in the USA, apart from 'Amercans'? USAsians? United Staters?
obese.
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Old Mar 23rd, 2004, 05:16 PM       
You know, if -and it appears that Glowbelly is the only exception to this- you truly feel that it is okay for soldiers to be sacrificed in games of State, you must then therefore take collateral damamge and civilian casualities with similar equilibrium. After all, if its okay for a soldier to die because they chose to enlist, then it is equally alright for civilians to die if they choose to remain in hazardous areas. The assumption of such an argument is that the risks were known and accepted, which applies aptly to both cases.

When civilians remain in a nation engaged in open hostilities they are, through their presence, showing solidarity with the State - As are the soldiers on the front lines. There really is very little difference between them -Save perhaps that soldiers are easier targets- as the German Werewolves illustrated in the aftermath of World War II, and Baathist sympathizes are showing currently in Iraq.
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Old Mar 23rd, 2004, 05:52 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
You know, if -and it appears that Glowbelly is the only exception to this- you truly feel that it is okay for soldiers to be sacrificed in games of State, you must then therefore take collateral damamge and civilian casualities with similar equilibrium. After all, if its okay for a soldier to die because they chose to enlist, then it is equally alright for civilians to die if they choose to remain in hazardous areas. The assumption of such an argument is that the risks were known and accepted, which applies aptly to both cases.

When civilians remain in a nation engaged in open hostilities they are, through their presence, showing solidarity with the State - As are the soldiers on the front lines. There really is very little difference between them -Save perhaps that soldiers are easier targets- as the German Werewolves illustrated in the aftermath of World War II, and Baathist sympathizes are showing currently in Iraq.
They're different. A soldier takes an oath to protect and defend the U.S. Constitution. They, of their own free wil, chose to enlist and go fight in wars if necessary.

The civilians we kill, on the contrary, are often from despoting and/or authoritarian nations that care little for their safety. In the case of Iraq, emmigration was rarely an option for the averge Iraqi. They are also too poor to make the kind of move necessary to avoid war violence. And most importantly, they had little to no decision making power in the war. Saddam never consulted anybody on the war, nor did President Bush consult these people, either.

Once again, one is volunteerism, whereas the other is a prison of poverty and subjegation. The comparison doesn't work.
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Old Mar 23rd, 2004, 06:01 PM       
I can tell you a personal story of why I joined the military and you may take it anyway you wish. I fair warn you that many of you will find faults in my story in fear of the truth. Some of you may look at it and see what it is like to go from a low-middle/upper-low class citizen to a middle/upper-middle class citizen within 6 years. However way you wish to take it, please understand that this is all truth and nothing is exagerated:

I grew up in Canton, OH being raised alongside my older and younger sister with my low-income parents. We struggled like everyone else did during the 90s and I finally graduated High School with decent grades. My family expecting me to attend college (rich white boy my ass) and I went to Kent State University for about 1 semester and realize it was not for me.

I left Kent and began working at Taco Bell trying to make ends meet and my parents told me I had two options - leave and find my own place or join the military. After about 10 seconds of thought I realized my life wasn't going to go anywhere unless I did something and the military was that thing.

I joined the US Air Force on 9 Sep 98 and went to Lackland then Keesler AFB for my training as a Tech Controller. After 6 months total traing time I was assigned the Pentagon. As you can imagine everyone in my family was excited that I was going to work at THE Pentagon. We were just jumping for joy.

Then something happened that changed not only myself but the world. We all know what happened on Sept 11th and a good 80% of us were americans. I remember working in the Pentagon that day and not being able to see within 2 feet of myself because of all the smoke. My lungs were blazing hot from the inhalation I had to deal with. My job was so important that I know I had to be there. If I wasn't there people out in the field wouldn't be able to communicate.

People say that it was a terrible day in history and I wish they knew just what it was like to be there. I see people today and it amazes me that the majority of them were supportive of anything that dealt with taking out those terrorists and anyone associated with them. Now they want nothing to do with fighting.

It saddens me to see my brothers and sisters of the military fighting a just war only to have the people they are fighting for bash the military. I hear some people now " but that's ok because we are not bashing them just there leaders". But those people don't realize when you bash our leaders and our government you ARE bashing us because we chose to fight for them and for you.

I now work for a government agency making a more then decent living. And I thank the US Government (particularly the military) for where I am at. I mean where else can you be a low-class income citizen and turn around 6 years later making 60K a year with only a high school education?

Thank you for your time.
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Old Mar 23rd, 2004, 10:03 PM       
Pfff. Dork.
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 01:41 AM       
Pfff. Nerd.
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 11:35 AM       
He's in the Pentagon! Shut the fuck up!
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 11:56 AM       
Kevin, for once, you couldn't be more wrong. Victims create themselves, this applies in collateral damage and issues of poverty. You say they couldn't become official emmigres? Granted, ruling powers wouldn't give permission for them to leave, but borders are anything but closed for any country. Whenever US military personnel infiltrate a country, we have always been aided by sympathizing noncombatants. We didn't drop C-130s into Iraq when we sent in our prelimary recon teams, we sent em in over mountains and down rivers.

You might say they were trained for such manoeuvres, but any level of determination and dedication would see sod busting plebes enjoying similar success.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 12:46 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
Kevin, for once, you couldn't be more wrong. Victims create themselves, this applies in collateral damage and issues of poverty.
So this would apply then for the 9/11 victims as well??? The argument you make, that location, geography, and vague association equates with complicity is the same argument made by suicide bombers.


Quote:
You say they couldn't become official emmigres? Granted, ruling powers wouldn't give permission for them to leave, but borders are anything but closed for any country.
If they wish to risk their lives, their families lives, then maybe Iraqis would have attempted this.

Okay, I'll bite. So soldiers don't deserve to die in a war, right? We shouldn't leave any soldiers in harms way, even though they volunteered for the task, right? What then is the solution, getting back to the point? Do we ├źnd the occupation"for the sake of saving the lives of some marines?? How many lives will that cost in the future when an anarchic Iraq fully collapses into corruption, terrorism, and Islamic extremism...?
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 12:49 PM       
erm. i just would like to say that this thread was originally started to REMEMBER the american soldiers that died over there.

i think that they are some of the bravest people on earth.

it still doesn't mean that i think they should have been sent to war in the first place.

i also think it's callous to think that just because someone voluntarily joined the military that it's OK that they are dead, because well, it was a risk that they took when they signed their papers. that would make all death ok, because it's a risk getting out of bed in the morning.

not all death is ok. some of it is really sad and unjust.
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 01:32 PM       
I never feel bad when a fireman or a cop dies. They knew what they were getting into.

Same goes for skydivers, rockclimbers, race car drivers and crossing gaurds. Look, you don't wanna take that risk, don't do those jobs.

I also don't care about the people that loved them. I mean, hell, I do care, I'm not a monster, but come on. I mean, you don't HAVE to be a crossing guard if you're afraidf a car might hit you. No one made you do it.

If a caddy gets struck by lightning or his head gts smashed in by a back swing, I don't think they should even be buried. Their corpse cn just rot on the course as a reminder that if you're not ready to die, don't be a fucking caddy.

"Oh, OH, poor fireman, what a tragedy a burning building fell on you, who knew burning buildings fall down?" I mean, shit, man.

You know what? I don't think anyone should feel bad about anybody dieing in any way. I mean, what, you figured they wouldn't have ever died? Did no one tell them that people don't live forever and that everybody dies? What a bunch of fucking crybabies.
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 02:00 PM       
All monkeys have calluses.
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 02:03 PM       
Well, as long as you don't expect anyone to feel bad for you if you die from some chimpanzee related risk, like falling out of a tree or getting eaten by a leopard or having your brain eaten in a bad Indiana Jones Movie.
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 02:51 PM       
If my brain was eaten in that manner, I wouldn't care because I'd be famous.
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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 05:30 PM       
My point, Herr Burbank, was that death is tragic regardless of circumstance. Kevin is familiar enough with my feelings on collateral damage to know that I was not in any mitigating the circumstances surrounding civilian casualities so much as I was trying to point out that shrugging off a serviceman's life is terribly cynical.

Our soldiers and sailours did not enlist with the intent to die, nor do they serve in the hope of killing dune coons, gooks and whatever other brand of uitlander our elated politicians deem the hobgoblin du jour. They are there to ensure the continuance of our liberties and freedoms. Underpaid, overworked and never appreciated while alive, I find it distasteful that even in death their civilian peers can find no appreciation for the sacrifice and effort made on their behalf.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 24th, 2004, 08:26 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
They are there to ensure the continuance of our liberties and freedoms. Underpaid, overworked and never appreciated while alive, I find it distasteful that even in death their civilian peers can find no appreciation for the sacrifice and effort made on their behalf.
I think you're reading into things that aren't there. Nobody here said it was a good thing that soldiers died in Iraq. Nor does anybody consider them expendable.

However, this was a WAR. I opposed it, and most on this board opposed it. Most didn't want ANYBODY to die in a war, much less our own soldiers. But war did take place, it was a victory, and the combined death toll of civilians AND soldiers was kept at a minimal level. Most soldiers have in fact died since the President declare the end of combat. But these men and women also understood the risks they'd be taking when entering the military. Of course they didn't want to die, but they understood that they very well may. To enlist in the military and not even consider the possibility would be naive.

I am of the opinion that we must keep troops there, we must nation build, and we must see this thing through. It is perfectly logical to have been opposed to the war and supportive of the "occupation." I want us to rebuild Iraq, I want us to help them become a liberal democracy, free from theological extremism and terrorism. To abandon the country now would be as short-sighted as pulling out of Afghanistan was over 20 years ago.
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