HOLY SHIT

[Mockery]

This is an interview with the mayor of NO:
http://www.hollowroom.plus.com/nagin.mp3

This guy needs to run for President. Fucking CLASSIC.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

Damn....just damn.....

[Ninjavenom]

A politician with his head on straight o .o

[Abcdxxxx]

Bullshit, I watched that idiots interviews two days ago and you would have thought everything was hunky dory. He took away his limited police force from relief efforts, and put them towards crime watch, which in turn enforced the idea that ambulances weren't safe to make rescues at hospitals. He's making this statement on what, day 4-5? It's a little late.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

There are legitimate reasons to put that limited police force on crime watch. There's crime. And no, not simply taking bottled water from a Walmart (which Walmart, to their cred, has apparently given the green light to...not that they could control it anyway), but people taking shots at choppers with medical supplies and people starting fires.

There needs to be order before there's relief, otherwise, giving the appropriate relief will be difficult. Maybe he sounded "hunky dory" two days ago b/c he had reason to believe two days ago that higher levels of state would be properly taking over the policing. Perhaps he is unsatisfied with the effort.....well, no perhaps, that's it.

[mburbank]

I think it's gonna be a hunk of time before we get some sort of clear idea of what happened when and who failed whom, but it's all going to come out. Right now it would be pretty hard to tell if the mayor is a hero or just a guy who failed a nearly impossible task.

I'll say this. Howvere many days it took, he's no longer speaking like a politician with one hand covering his ass.

Like someone I won't mention who has said, and this is all today:

He's satisified with the relief effort.
The relief effort is unacaptable.
What he meant by saying it was unnacaptable is that it won't be acceptable until it's all done, which will happen, and we're making excellent progress.

Katrina gave ample warning. There were buckets of reports about what would happen if a category five or stronger hit New Orleans, and in fact FEMA has had their own reports on the subject for years. Instead of being ready to go, our national response is just starting to get there today. No matter how you slice it, that adds up to a lot of dead people who might have had a better shot at living.

[Abcdxxxx]

The mayor was saying how satisfied he was with relief efforts on Tuesday.

That was the same day the State was refusing relief help without accreditation (or whoever that word is spelled at the moment) from their State.

As to the law and order issue.... some of the most dangerous spots seem to be the locations where the city has sent people...the Silverdome, and the convention center. Provide people with their basic needs, and they're a lot less likely to shoot helicopters. They were responding to rumors, not actual situations, for one thing.

Besides, I think Iraq has proven we can still provide MRE's and water even under sniper fire.

[Abcdxxxx]

I'll also add, it's pretty clear the city lacked leadership. Nobody knew where to go, and the closest thing the city had to a rescue center had locked it's doors.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Again, I think there was a big difference between Tuesday and Today.

"As to the law and order issue.... some of the most dangerous spots seem to be the locations where the city has sent people...the Silverdome, and the convention center. Provide people with their basic needs, and they're a lot less likely to shoot helicopters. They were responding to rumors, not actual situations, for one thing."

Where else do you send large groups of people when your city is flooded? I think the violence naturally found itself where the larger number of people were.

"Provide people with their basic needs, and they're a lot less likely to shoot helicopters. They were responding to rumors, not actual situations, for one thing."

I agree about the basic needs, but with communication down, telephones down, etc., what else can they go on? if they hear that X number of gunmen are roaming in a certain part of the city, it's their obligation to respond. And the violence certainly isn't entirely "rumor."

And about iraq-- I'm certain you can do a lot under sniper fire, that doesn't mean you don't stop the snipers if it's in your power.

[GAsux]

I am comfortable attributing some level of blame as the president because that's the nature of the office.

But for the record, it seems to me that FEMA leadership is doing a lot of finger pointing without owning up to much of the responsibility. As the leader of an oganization, it is the presidents job to make sure the orgainzations have the tools to do the job. Its not his job to do the job. Thats what the fine people from FEMA get paid to do.

So if they've been prediciting for four years that a major hurricane in the NO area would be catastrophic, and then had a week's notice that a major hurricane was going to strike NO, who the responsible party in terms of not mobilizing resources fast enough, not having command and control already in place before the storm hit, etc.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I think the blame stretches out here, and the only reason I sympathize with Mayor Nagin is that his city, his infrastructure, and the limited resources he had to offer, have been slammed by this.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/

This was sort of an interesting little synopsis by CNN, showing the conflicting quotes from some of the players involved, some with video clips.

[mburbank]

The head of FEMA wargamed a category 3 hurricane hitting NO. He was talking on CNN yesterday about how they were all ready to do this and now they're doing it.

If this were any other administration, one would assume he'd get shitcanned. I think he is now in line for a Presidential Medal of Freedom.

[Abcdxxxx]

It's the mayor's job to look at these evacuation plans and realize there are no proper shelters, with back up provisions. Typically, you use schools, armory buildings, military bases, air hangars, etc. Shutting down half the public transportation on the day you call for evactuation, probably isn't a good idea. We're supposed to have backup plans for every possible emergency.... Nuclear fallout? Good luck!

Who cares if snipers put you in danger, your priority has to be risking your life to save lives.

There's plenty of blame to go around, and these people still aren't out of the woods. It doesn't appear even today that there's a clear coordinated plan of rescue being made public so these people even know their future..

[mburbank]

"Who cares if snipers put you in danger, your priority has to be risking your life to save lives. "

I gotta say I agree with that. I'm glad as hell that I'm not in that chopper, but turning away from a hospital full of people? If there were no armed national guard on the chopper shouldn't they have come right back with some people to return fire and try to get an evacuation going?

I don't know, all this is second guessing, but all across the board, concidering people have been planning for this type of event, and it turns out, this speciffic event, one would think this wouldn't have turned out to be such a huge disaster. PART of the scenario FEMA game played was only partial response to a manditory evacuation.

And where is homeland security on all of this? Are they saying "Well, you know, if terrorists had blown up the levees, we'd be all over this like flies on shit, but sadly we are not aloowed to help here."

[Abcdxxxx]

It's my understanding Homeland Security are above FEMA now. Which is partially to blame for why FEMA might have got caught in a paperwork tangle. The other thing which isn't happening, and should, is the paperwork for these people to eventually get FEMA aid. It's pretty standard that when a disaster strikes, you have FEMA and Red Cross with tables set up in a central safety point.

As far as the Mayor goes.... I find him particularly hypocritical because on Monday-Tuesday I remember screaming at my TV every time he got on there and gave the same self congralutatory type crap that most everyone is pissed at the FEMA people for doing.

[CaptainBubba]

Ok, I've read and heard enough and I'd actually like to donate, but I still need reassurance the Red Cross will actually distribute and use funds. I seem to recall during 9-11 they were woefully inept and kept alot of the donations. Was this rectified? If not is there some other way I can donate?

[Ninjavenom]

You can also volunteer your time at a local... red cross :-/

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Typically, you use schools, armory buildings, military bases, air hangars, etc.

How do you know these places weren't already used? Shelters were completely maxed out, and when the flooding began, they needed to be evacuated. Sending people to a school with 4 ft. of water in it wouldn't do all that much good. They directed people to where there was space, and where it was relatively dry. I'm not trying to argue that they had a fool proof plan, I'm just saying that the city could only do so much, and then a great deal of the burden needs to fall on the state, and the feds.

Shutting down half the public transportation on the day you call for evactuation, probably isn't a good idea.

I wasn't aware this happened, but from what I heard of the traffic tyhat day, grabbing a bus wouldn't have been any faster.

Who cares if snipers put you in danger, your priority has to be risking your life to save lives.

And if the EMT worker or volunteer fireman who is saving lives gets shot, then two people die. I agree that you need to prioritize saving lives, but if someone is taking pot-shots at people, you need to control that.

Bottom line is that more guardsmen should've been sent sooner, because you needed enough manpower to do both things-- rescue people, save lives, and maintain order. It shouldn't have to be a trade off.

There's plenty of blame to go around, and these people still aren't out of the woods. It doesn't appear even today that there's a clear coordinated plan of rescue being made public so these people even know their future..

Who could tell them this? 75,000+ people now live as refugees in Texas, and I'm sure more are being disperesed all over the place. Retired vets. are getting moved to VA hospitals here in DC.

I think until the engineers can get the water out of the damn city, it's going to be hard to truly assess what kind of repair the city is looking at. I think only then will they be able to decide where a lot of these people go, and for how long exactly.

[Abcdxxxx]

I'm not talking about repairs, I'm talking about clear leadership with a clear plan of evacuation, along with the immediate fate of their rescue. Until this morning, people were standing out on highways, blocked in with armed checkpoints so they couldn't walk to safety or away from where they ended up. When they recused people off rooftops, they dropped them on the highway that leads to the Convention Center, and left them without provisions for days. There is no defense for the Mayor, or ANYONE involved in the rescue planning. Millions watched Monday morning, and using common sense, we all knew the situation was dire. How many of us watched this go down and could tell there was going to be a situation the second they said go to a Sports Stadium if you're stuck in the city, without providing people a method to even get there!

The Silverdome isn't a shelter. The convention center is not a shelter. They did not use any of the traditional locations citys use as designated temporary shelters. They didn't stock them with enough water, medecine, and food. They created situations where officials, media, and first responders feared for their own saftey, and evacuated the place designated as a safety zone. That is inexcusable. If you're the mayor of a city, it's your job to make sure your city is outfitted with proper shelters. I blame ALL the authorities. You have to be outraged and angry by what you're seeing, and I can't imagine how anyone can realistically say this was all a circumstance of a natural disaster. I'm angry, I'm sure you're angry too... I can't tell you exactly what could have been done better, but I don't think it's much of an argument about what should have been done differently.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Again, I agree with your harsh criticism, and I don't really feel like making a case for what was certainly a bungled operation all around. However....

The Silverdome isn't a shelter. The convention center is not a shelter. They did not use any of the traditional locations citys use as designated temporary shelters. They didn't stock them with enough water, medecine, and food. They created situations where officials, media, and first responders feared for their own saftey, and evacuated the place designated as a safety zone. That is inexcusable. If you're the mayor of a city, it's your job to make sure your city is outfitted with proper shelters. I blame ALL the authorities. You have to be outraged and angry by what you're seeing, and I can't imagine how anyone can realistically say this was all a circumstance of a natural disaster. I'm angry, I'm sure you're angry too... I can't tell you exactly what could have been done better, but I don't think it's much of an argument about what should have been done differently.

Agreed. I think though you have to take into account the fact that 80% of the city is under water, some parts well over 10 feet of water. People did go to the traditional shelters, but they too needed to be evacuated due to the water. Airports are under water, schools are under water, and hospitals have no power to provide basic needs and services. Even if these shelters were open and safe, they would probably all look like mini-versions of the Silver Dome and Convention Center disasters.

They fucked up, no doubt. But I think the harsh reality here may be that the City of New Orleans didn't have the proper planning, and more importantly, the funding to make things as secure as they needed to be. Engineers and city planners predicted the scenario, but it seems they simply didn't have the resources to prevent it.

[Abcdxxxx]

I've always been under the impression our major cities had emergency centers, outfitted with generators, and bare needs in case of a crisis...or nuclear bomb. It amazes me what we don't have after all.

I haven't read anything about any other shelters being sanctioned, but the point really is that shelters should be available, and designed to withstand the indigineous elements of that region.

As for the Mayor, on Tuesday he was congratulating FEMA's quick response.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I can't account for Nagin, I saw in a report today that he was on the phone with Bush that very same day complaining about FEMA.

All I know is that Nagin is a New Orleans-born and raised native who came from poor roots, who just saw his city leveled, probably to never be the same again. Same goes for most of these cops. At least two have reportedly killed themselves. Others are missing spouses and family members.

I know it's their duty to respond, but to me anyway, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that these guys might potentially fold under the stress, trauma, shock, and even the heat.

This is where the importance of out-of-state relief comes into play, which is why I think FEMA will take the biggest hit for this.

[Abcdxxxx]

That explains why Nagin would be emotional, but it doesn't explain why he did a poor job. Drudgereport has a photo of the school buses, and a qoute from their emergency handbook that incriminates him. He's now claiming that 30,000 people spontaneously gathered at the Convention Center all on their own. He has no integrity.

2 cops commited suicide and a few hundred walked off the job - where are you going with that? Some cops assisted in the looting, some even looted themselves....some strong armed people and treated the survival tactics as criminal activities because their Mayor, and their President both announced zero tolerance. I firmly believe they created the chaos out of preconcieved fears, and then said they needed to restore order. The misinterpretation was due to a bias against the demographic. In many parts of the country, you can't even book a Hip Hop show because of that very same bias. Whatever went on could not have been substantial enough to practically shut down a city wide (90 miles?) operation. It almost seems as if they were expecting, or trying to provoke the race riot that never happened.

Lt. General Russell Hondre described the gunshots as mostly water bottles popping from trucks driving over them. I think there's been a lot of stressed out cops, engaging in friendly fire.... and I would bet you that a few months from now there will be some big news expose to legitamize my theory. Where's Ranxer when you need a good conspiracy theory anyway?

[sadie]

:fist

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

2 cops commited suicide and a few hundred walked off the job - where are you going with that?...... I firmly believe they created the chaos out of preconcieved fears, and then said they needed to restore order. The misinterpretation was due to a bias against the demographic. In many parts of the country, you can't even book a Hip Hop show because of that very same bias. Whatever went on could not have been substantial enough to practically shut down a city wide (90 miles?) operation. It almost seems as if they were expecting, or trying to provoke the race riot that never happened.

It's a very black police force clashing with predominantly black people. I don't think the "race riots" were a self-fulfilled prophecy, in other words. I think they were a natural biproduct of what was a chaotic, tragic, and yes, lawless situation.

Lt. General Russell Hondre described the gunshots as mostly water bottles popping from trucks driving over them. I think there's been a lot of stressed out cops, engaging in friendly fire.... and I would bet you that a few months from now there will be some big news expose to legitamize my theory. Where's Ranxer when you need a good conspiracy theory anyway?

i'm not going to guess or speculate, but there were reports of gun battles, and people getting shot. Now I have no clue if that's exaggeration, lies, or whatever.