Go Back   I-Mockery Forum > I-Mockery Discussion Forums > Philosophy, Politics, and News
FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
Mocker
KevinTheOmnivore's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
KevinTheOmnivore is probably a spambot
Old Feb 7th, 2004, 02:06 PM        Tax Protester Tells Federal Court That He Is Delusional
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/business/07tax.html

February 7, 2004

Tax Protester Tells Federal Court That He Is Delusional
By DAVID CAY JOHNSTON

LOS ANGELES, Feb. 6 - Irwin Schiff, the nation's best-known promoter of claims that no law requires the payment of income taxes, suffers from delusions including a fantasy that he alone can properly interpret the tax laws, according to papers that he had his lawyers file in Federal District Court in Las Vegas.

The filing, made on Jan. 23, is highly unusual, especially in a civil lawsuit. The document asks a judge to deny a summary judgment in favor of the Justice Department that Mr. Schiff owes $2.5 million in income taxes, fraud penalties and interest.

The mental health claim is also a ruse, according to an e-mail message sent on Tuesday to Mr. Schiff's thousands of supporters by his girlfriend, Cindy Nuen.

"We are sick about having to use this defense," Ms. Nuen wrote in her e-mail message. "It is ridiculous."

She wrote that this defense is the only way for Mr. Schiff to escape fraud penalties because, she wrote, his lawyers are "scared" to tell judges that "the income tax law is meritless and frivolous."

Mr. Schiff's personal psychiatrist, Dr. Luis Carlos Ortega of Las Vegas, wrote last year, in notes placed in the court file, that Mr. Schiff has suffered from paranoid delusions about the tax system for decades.

Dr. Ortega attributes the mental illness, after a normal upbringing, to Mr. Schiff's loss of his own money and that of clients of his Connecticut insurance brokerage firm in an oil industry tax shelter decades ago. That shelter turned out to be a Ponzi scheme.

"Mr. Schiff's distorted beliefs" that the tax system is a hoax "appear to have grown out of his business failures," Dr. Ortega wrote.

Mr. Schiff's assertion that he is delusional comes as the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in San Francisco is scheduled to hear oral arguments on Tuesday on whether Mr. Schiff can be barred from selling his book "The Federal Mafia: How the Federal Government Illegally Imposes and Unlawfully Collects Federal Income Taxes."

His appeal has drawn support from the Nevada chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, the American Booksellers Association, the American Publishers Association, the American Library Association and the writers' group PEN.

Mr. Schiff contends that Judge Lloyd D. George of Federal District Court in Las Vegas banned his book, although the order allows anyone to sell the book except Mr. Schiff, Ms. Nuen and an associate.

The order also requires Mr. Schiff to turn over the names of all those who bought the book from him so the Internal Revenue Service can audit them. The I.R.S. says in recent years it has identified more than 5,000 returns reporting zero income, the technique taught in the book, forcing it to spend taxpayer money pursuing these individuals.

Last week a promoter of a competing theory that Americans are tricked into taxes, Thurston P. Bell of Hanover, Pa., complied with a court order to give the I.R.S. a list of his clients, striking a serious blow at the so-called tax honesty movement.

Mr. Schiff, a convicted tax evader, has a large core of dedicated followers, especially in Las Vegas, where he has lived since his second release from prison a decade ago. He has prospered in recent years from sales of his books and lecture fees, but he has also engaged in increasingly rancorous disputes with proponents of competing theories, like the one Mr. Bell marketed, that Americans are tricked into paying income taxes. None of these theories have had any success in court.
###
Reply With Quote
  #2  
The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
Mocker
The One and Only...'s Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Harlem
The One and Only... is probably a spambot
Old Feb 7th, 2004, 02:20 PM       
Tax evasion. Just one more reason we need a more efficient tax code. Such as a VAT-esque tax to replace the corporate-income tax, and a national sales tax with a built-in negative income "tax" to replace societal welfare and nationalized industries and services. Oh yeah!!!
__________________
I have seen all things that are done under the sun; all is vanity and a chase after wind.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
Mocker
KevinTheOmnivore's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
KevinTheOmnivore is probably a spambot
Old Feb 7th, 2004, 02:22 PM       
The #1 reason we need stricter tax laws.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
Mocker
The One and Only...'s Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Harlem
The One and Only... is probably a spambot
Old Feb 7th, 2004, 02:25 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore
The #1 reason we need stricter tax laws.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Yes, that's all we need. The creation of even more legal loopholes and an expansion of the IRS so large that the US effectively becomes a police state. How economically sound.

*snickers*
__________________
I have seen all things that are done under the sun; all is vanity and a chase after wind.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
Mocker
KevinTheOmnivore's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
KevinTheOmnivore is probably a spambot
Old Feb 7th, 2004, 02:33 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Yes, that's all we need. The creation of even more legal loopholes and an expansion of the IRS so large that the US effectively becomes a police state. How economically sound.

*snickers*
I think you should buy that guy's book. You'll need to get his defense down tight....although you're half way there with talk of an IRS police state and such.

If people paid their taxes, and stop persuing the quack loopholes provided by criminals such as this man, the work of the IRS would be considerably less. This isn't coming from me, rather, this is coming from my fiscally conservative uncle who works for the IRS. He would probably *snicker* too at the ramblings of a naive and flippant little kid like yourself....

*snickers*
Reply With Quote
  #6  
The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
Mocker
The One and Only...'s Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Harlem
The One and Only... is probably a spambot
Old Feb 7th, 2004, 02:38 PM       
WELL NO DAMN SHIT!!! The question is, how are you going to stop abuses of loopholes? The answer: you can't. Change the law as much as you like, legal loopholes will remain in such a complex and contradicting tax code as ours. Unless you want to take away the tax offender's right to go to court...

Stop being an idealist. You can't prevent people from abusing the rules that are given. Truely "stricter" tax laws would be simpler. That's the way to prevent abuse.
__________________
I have seen all things that are done under the sun; all is vanity and a chase after wind.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Perndog Perndog is offline
Fartin's biggest fan
Perndog's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Snowland
Perndog is probably a spambot
Old Feb 7th, 2004, 03:42 PM       
The #1 reason we need a dictator with some common sense calling the legal shots instead of committees that get hung up on technicalities.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Rez Rez is offline
YOU GUYS ARE DOING GREAT
Rez's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Davis, CA
Rez is probably a spambot
Old Feb 7th, 2004, 06:11 PM       
*snickers*
*snickers*
*sssstill sssssnickering*
*snickering some more*
*lookit dat snick*
*snickerin everywhere*
*snickin' time*
__________________
Thanks, Moon!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
Mocker
KevinTheOmnivore's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
KevinTheOmnivore is probably a spambot
Old Feb 10th, 2004, 09:38 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
Stop being an idealist. You can't prevent people from abusing the rules that are given. Truely "stricter" tax laws would be simpler. That's the way to prevent abuse.
Stop being a jackass. Truly strict tax laws would be no taxes, right? Sort of like truly necessary tax revenues would be no revenue at all....?

We need to strengthen regulation, stop rewarding corporations for laying off American workers and moving a phone and secretary to Connecticut, prosecute expatriots who set up accounts in Bermuda for treason, go after those who habitually use tax loopholes (particularly those who are rich, who happen to have more options when it comes to avoiding Uncle Sam), reinforce the IRS, send people to jail, and start whooping some ass. This isn't "idealism," this is the law.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
mburbank has disabled reputation
Old Feb 11th, 2004, 11:18 AM       
Say, suppose we took all the money we blow in the 'drug war' and put it into enforcement of existing tax law?

And suppose we made tax offenders due serious mandatory hard time the way we do petty drug offenders?

And suppose we confiscated and sold all their property at auction on the assumption it was paid fpr by tax evasion profits?

And suppose we prosecuted Black tax offenders much more vigorously and frequentlt than white tax-


Oops. Sorry. ent to far with my analogy there.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
Mocker
The One and Only...'s Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Harlem
The One and Only... is probably a spambot
Old Feb 11th, 2004, 04:27 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore
We need to strengthen regulation
Regulations do nothing but hinder the natural flexibility of the market and lower or raise incentives disproportionate to the demand.

Quote:
stop rewarding corporations for laying off American workers and moving a phone and secretary to Connecticut
Oh, you mean we should force corporations to keep all their workers? Sorry, I'd like to see technological progress in the future. Not to mention that corporations must downsize in some cases in order to survive. I trust you don't want more corporate welfare, now do you?

Quote:
prosecute expatriots who set up accounts in Bermuda for treason
Why? Global competition within the banking structures will ensure higher efficiency.

Quote:
go after those who habitually use tax loopholes (particularly those who are rich, who happen to have more options when it comes to avoiding Uncle Sam)
You mean, go after those who obey the law? That doesn't sound like a fair system to me.

Quote:
reinforce the IRS
No, we need to eliminate the IRS. It is a horribly inefficient agency.

Quote:
send people to jail
Send innocents to jail, I might add.

Quote:
This isn't "idealism," this is the law.
No, it's class warfare.
__________________
I have seen all things that are done under the sun; all is vanity and a chase after wind.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
mburbank has disabled reputation
Old Feb 11th, 2004, 05:37 PM       
"Regulations do nothing but hinder the natural flexibility of the market and lower or raise incentives disproportionate to the demand. "
-OAO

That's a nice string of words. Did you intend to back them up, or are you speaking ex-cathedra?

I refer you again to the fact that the rule of law is all that prevents me from harvesting your orgns and selling them.

"Oh, you mean we should force corporations to keep all their workers?"
-OAO

I think he said 'stop rewarding for laying off'. What are you, binary?

"Why? Global competition within the banking structures will ensure higher efficiency. "
-OAO

It certainly has provided more and more efficient ways to launder money.


"I'm a huge oppositional tool and I don't really think anything at all I just like to be a disagreable monkey and lift my tail so you can see gods light pouring out my scrunchy."
-OAO

Well said sir!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
Mocker
KevinTheOmnivore's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
KevinTheOmnivore is probably a spambot
Old Feb 11th, 2004, 07:46 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
Regulations do nothing but hinder the natural flexibility of the market and lower or raise incentives disproportionate to the demand.
We're not talking about the market, we are talking about the law. You said people wouldn't pay taxes. I (as did Max) listed steps that could be taken to improve this. You call me an "idealist," yet advocate self-regulation. You are dumb.

Quote:
Oh, you mean we should force corporations to keep all their workers? Sorry, I'd like to see technological progress in the future. Not to mention that corporations must downsize in some cases in order to survive. I trust you don't want more corporate welfare, now do you?
If a corporate can't survive, if its business is not successful enough, it shouldn't need any government assistance, right? This would simply be the market adjusting and correcting herself, right?

I don't believe every person should be guaranteec a job. I do however believe that corporations that lay off workers, move corporate headquarters to p.o. boxes in Conecticut, and open up bogus accounts in Bermuda are traitors looking to increase stock value. Is Dell a corporation in need of layoffs to survive??? Let me answer that-- no. It's about cutting pennies and maximizing profit for management, period.

Quote:
Quote:
prosecute expatriots who set up accounts in Bermuda for treason
Why? Global competition within the banking structures will ensure higher efficiency.
It will ensure that our country is deprived of tax revenue. I'm glad to see that Thomas Jefferson was right-- the monied classes have no country. You can go ahead and include yourself in that group, sport.

Quote:
Quote:
go after those who habitually use tax loopholes (particularly those who are rich, who happen to have more options when it comes to avoiding Uncle Sam)
You mean, go after those who obey the law? That doesn't sound like a fair system to me.
We have laws. The wealthy lie and use grey area loopholes to violate these laws. They should be prosecuted.

Quote:
Quote:
reinforce the IRS
No, we need to eliminate the IRS. It is a horribly inefficient agency.
Shut up, seriously, just shut up. You're on an infantile market rampage right now, and the little Friedman loving militia guy inside your head is clouding your judgement.

You say we need simpler tax codes. Fine. I'll bite, that's cool. You're entitled to your Libertarian Party line opinion. But these people are violating the law right now. There's those who work to enact change, and then there's those who buy books written by this jackass and rape the flaws in the system. They're two different things, and you can't have it both ways. These people are using what you refer to as an inefficient system to their advantage. They should be prosecuted.

Quote:
Quote:
send people to jail
Send innocents to jail, I might add.

Quote:
This isn't "idealism," this is the law.
No, it's class warfare.
[/quote]

I'm glad to see that law, nation, and civic duty take a back seat to your ideological fixations. Get your head out of your ass.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
Mocker
The One and Only...'s Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Harlem
The One and Only... is probably a spambot
Old Feb 11th, 2004, 07:54 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
That's a nice string of words. Did you intend to back them up, or are you speaking ex-cathedra?
Apply commonsense.

Regulations hinder flexibility. Well, that's pretty damn true. If a regulation has forced me to provide certain safety measures for my workers when an alternative could have been used just as effectively, flexibility has been hindered. And it doesn't take a genius to find an example.

Lowering and raising incentives are what regulations are created for. My incentive to run a company within X industry if Y regulation makes it more expensive to do so. In a free market, the incentive purely corresponds to the information I have gathered on the aggragate demand.

Quote:
I refer you again to the fact that the rule of law is all that prevents me from harvesting your orgns and selling them.
Point being what? Privatized defense firms could protect me within anarcho-capitalism. I just accept that police are one of those oddities that operate more efficiently as a monopoly.

Quote:
I think he said 'stop rewarding for laying off'. What are you, binary?
And how do we reward them, exactly? With a higher profit margin because the worker was unnecessary? This is similar to technological progress: I'd rather more efficient methods of doing tasks were created than perpetuate 100% employment (sorry if that comes off a little Schumpeterian).

Quote:
It certainly has provided more and more efficient ways to launder money.
Not really. Money dumped into banks in foreign nations still gets taxed by that country, and, if I recall, we tax it too (or is that only corporate profits?). In any case, you have a very simplistic view of the issue. The benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
__________________
I have seen all things that are done under the sun; all is vanity and a chase after wind.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
mburbank has disabled reputation
Old Feb 12th, 2004, 02:32 PM       
You know what? You aren't talking nonsense and you're right n every way. I'm converted. I'm also on my way to get your kidneys. I hoep you've set aside funds for a private police force.

You know how long you'd survive in an anarchist world? Just about as long as you could stay hidden.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
Mocker
The One and Only...'s Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Harlem
The One and Only... is probably a spambot
Old Feb 12th, 2004, 07:55 PM       
I'm not an anarchist, and most anarchists would tell you that anarcho-capitalism is not anarchist anyway because it retains a hierarchy. I was but merely making a point.
__________________
I have seen all things that are done under the sun; all is vanity and a chase after wind.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
mburbank has disabled reputation
Old Feb 13th, 2004, 10:29 AM       
Huh. See, I thought when a person made a point they succesfully conveyed a solid idea.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

   


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:45 PM.


© 2008 I-Mockery.com
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.