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The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Feb 6th, 2004, 09:21 PM        Read the quote in my sig.
Very telling, don't you think?
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Old Feb 6th, 2004, 10:16 PM       
When did he say that?
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Old Feb 6th, 2004, 11:08 PM       
This comes as a big surprise from a shill for the timber industry.

And that quote is old news, nobody cares. He is one guy who didn't like where Greenpeace was going, and didn't like the fact that he was unable to control that course.
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 12:25 AM       


I'm going to start calling you "Testy Bitch," OAO, because that's what you are. I bet you laugh your ass off when you post this shit.
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 05:56 AM       
Quick! Someone lock this thread!
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 01:52 PM       
I just can't believe that environmentalists want to prohibit developing countries from... you know... developing. Well, I can, but I don't want to.

The nominee for the 9th (Appelate?) Court once said that environmentalists want to turn the West (as in, American West) into a theme park. That's an understatement. They want to turn the entire third world into a theme park.

Although, I have to say that I like the nominee. He's said a lot of things. Like "It is a fallacy to believe that centralized government can promote environmentalism." He also compared the regulation of public lands to Britain's tyranny over the American colonies. And he claimed that the right to property is as fundamental to our constitution as the right to free speech.
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 02:15 PM       
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I just can't believe that environmentalists want to prohibit developing countries from... you know... developing. Well, I can, but I don't want to.
A big part of the reason they can't do so is because of international debt. We trade debt for pollution points with these nations, which lowers the bar with which they can pollute. We essentially buy up their polluting capabilities, just to keep the international community off of our back.

The Brazilian government is considering clear cutting up to 50% of the Amazon. Just who exactly wants to develope in these nations? Who is it that's being intimidated???
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 02:19 PM       
Umm... the Brazilians!?!

I don't think that those in the third world enjoy living in poverty anymore than we would be content to live in the United States if a foreign nation had material capacities that would fulfill the requirement for a utopia.

Certainly the starving Africans who suffer from protectionism and anti-globalists don't enjoy their conditions.
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 02:27 PM       
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Umm... the Brazilians!?!

I don't think that those in the third world enjoy living in poverty anymore than we would be content to live in the United States if a foreign nation had material capacities that would fulfill the requirement for a utopia.
Right, there are people, those who would directly benefit from letting the cattle, agricultural, and timber industries in, that want such "progress." But much like the "progress" we saw centuries ago in England and America, these levels of "progress" were not necessarily indicative of the entire populous (you can bet your life it certainly isn't the small Brazilian farmer who will benefit).

Quote:
Certainly the starving Africans who suffer from protectionism and anti-globalists don't enjoy their conditions.
Nations such as...Uganda? Tanzania? These countries were World Bank/IMF babies. Uganda was to be the model for free market progress. "Whu happened?"

"Protectionism" and "anti-globalism" are hardly what's keeping Africa down....
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 02:33 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore
Right, there are people, those who would directly benefit from letting the cattle, agricultural, and timber industries in, that want such "progress." But much like the "progress" we saw centuries ago in England and America, these levels of "progress" were not necessarily indicative of the entire populous (you can bet your life it certainly isn't the small Brazilian farmer who will benefit).
Oh yes it is. Tariffs, my boy, tariffs. We ban the Brazilian farmer from competing in our markets, which means that has a lower income. Even if you are referring to the movement of corporations to Brazil, the farmer would probably make a higher wage working for the company. Empirical research + theoretical analysis indicates this.

Quote:
Nations such as...Uganda? Tanzania? These countries were World Bank/IMF babies. Uganda was to be the model for free market progress. "Whu happened?"

"Protectionism" and "anti-globalism" are hardly what's keeping Africa down....
Uganda and Tanzania are so economically superior than their protectionist peers, it's a joke.

Take a step back and look at the whole of Africa. It's hardly a nation of "World Bank/IMF babies". Then compare to Uganda and Tanzania. Or, more appropriately, to the Tigers.
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 03:37 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
Oh yes it is. Tariffs, my boy, tariffs. We ban the Brazilian farmer from competing in our markets, which means that has a lower income. Even if you are referring to the movement of corporations to Brazil, the farmer would probably make a higher wage working for the company. Empirical research + theoretical analysis indicates this.
1) His income will increase just about as fast as the cost of living does.

2) Who says the small farmers are in it for money? Maybe they'd rather subsist on their own little farms than punch a clock, do someone else's work, and bring home a paycheck.
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 04:18 PM       
1) I was referring to real wages

2) Statistical analysis and common sense shows that the vast majority of those living in poor countries would like to be wealthier.
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 04:26 PM       
Does that vast majority include modestly successful farmers in Brazil or is it mainly the starving people in Africa and the Middle East?
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 04:29 PM       
It's everyone in the freakin' world.

Show me one person who does not desire a more comfortable life style, and I'll show you either a liar or religious extremist.

But, to answer your question: yes, it does. Although I wouldn't call Brazilian farmers successful.
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 04:40 PM       
Human nature and greed trumps environmental morality. Big suprise there.

So what you're saying is that since the U.S. has rape the environment for years to it's own advnatage and found out that maybe it's not such a good thing, it's allowed to place this morality on other poorer countries and not expect them to revolt and want what we have in terms of our standard of living? A little hypocritical, methinks.
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 05:25 PM       
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Originally Posted by The One and Only...
Statistical analysis and common sense shows that the vast majority of those living in poor countries would like to be wealthier.
Sure, but at the expense of what? Different people have different values. There are those who believe that material gain is the be all to end all. Others are not so willing to sacrifice social bonds, cultural traditions etc. at the expense of wealth.

The question you should ask is this: would the average Brazilian be in favor of cutting down 1/2 of the rainforest if he or she were presented with a means of improving the of standard of living that does not entail cutting down 1/2 of the rainforest??? Who is to say that cutting down 1/2 of the rainforest is the only way a country can develop?
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 06:42 PM       
OAO, seriously, you know you're a tool, right?

"Tariffs, my boy, Tariffs".

ANYONE who says that is a tool, and a fifteen year old who says it is a spectacular tool. Again, I don't know which would be worse, if you are a child or if you aren't.

Seriously, it's not your opinions that make you a jerk, it's you, it's the whole package, and it seems to delight you. These are not good traits your demonstrating here, they are not virtues, you're just a self impressed wise ass. It isn't cute or funny, and if you honestly believe some of the crap you say, you could easily express yourself minus all the stuff that makes any half way alert person want to crush you like a bug.

What's your deal? What do you want? What is it about being disliked that seems to oil your engine?
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 07:45 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by theapportioner
The question you should ask is this: would the average Brazilian be in favor of cutting down 1/2 of the rainforest if he or she were presented with a means of improving the of standard of living that does not entail cutting down 1/2 of the rainforest???
Probably not. Unfortunately, such an alternative does not exist for the Brazilian. Such methods are expensive enough for affluent nations, let alone poor ones who could never afford them until they become richer. Not to mention that stricter environmental regulations detract foreign investment.

Do you want an honest argument against the destruction of rainforests? Property rights. The tribesmen who live in the rainforest should own the rainforest in the first place.
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 08:47 PM       
Tool ta-tool tool tool.
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 09:47 PM       
Why... that was the epitome of original, witty thought and logical process. Surely such an argument must be remembered within the annals of history. So many will try to fully comprehend its artistic yet rational depth, and fail because of their inferior mental capabilities.

Not even the mighty Zeus of I-Mockery, Vince, could have formed such eloquent wordplay as yours.
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 10:21 PM        Re: Read the quote in my sig.
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Very telling, don't you think?
Funny how you don't include a source.
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Old Feb 7th, 2004, 10:22 PM       
www.eco-imperalism.com
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Old Feb 8th, 2004, 12:14 AM       
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A site that doesn't work. Wonderful. Thats about what I've come to expect from you.
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Old Feb 8th, 2004, 10:12 AM       
Yeah. Because I haven't been clear enough about why I think you're a jerk, OAO. Calling you a Tool is just brevity, my boy, brevity.
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Old Feb 8th, 2004, 10:14 AM       
It doesn't work because I spelt it wrong.

http://www.eco-imperialism.com/
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