Free Will and determinism and...

[kellychaos]

Art and math are about defining the same thing via a different media ... or way of thinking ... neither is more wrong than the other (Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance).

[kahljorn]

"Most art can be reduced down to easily expressed math principles"

and mathematical principals can easily be expressed in art and language
Stupid argument. That's like trying to say the english language is better than other languages because it's so definitive.

[Big Papa Goat]

Art is a definitively human form of expression, it has nothing to do with the actual nature of anything.

[CaptainBubba]

THANK YOU.

[Pub Lover]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

"Most art can be reduced down to easily expressed math principles"

and mathematical principals can easily be expressed in art and language
Stupid argument. That's like trying to say the english language is better than other languages because it's so definitive.

& if you had read my second line, I would hope you saw my humour.

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by Big Papa Goat

Art is a definitively human form of expression, it has nothing to do with the actual nature of anything.

Well, other than the actual nature of humans...

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by Big Papa Goat

Art is a definitively human form of expression, it has nothing to do with the actual nature of anything.

Explain please ... and explain as well why math isn't an innate, natural and human form of expression.

[Big Papa Goat]

Human nature wouldn't be different if it wasn't expressed in terms of art. People have a natural tendency to express themselves artistically, but that doesn't mean art is a fundamental way of describing human nature. It may be the best way for a human being to understand human nature, but human nature wasn't created by art, it was created under the principles of biology, (read: chemistry, read: physics) so there's no reason to think our nature can't be defined under those terms, though there may be a great deal of complexity and difficulty, given our complex biological and social nature. Thats another thing I guess, human nature is a result of culture to a pretty significant extent (when I say human nature here, I don't mean in terms of nature/nurture, but in terms of the precise definition of what a human is) and culture is effected by art, but in that sense, art and culture are really just farther up on the reductionism ladder, being based on nothing else but psycholgical-neurological-biological etc. tendencies. Don't tell me no nonsense about the inability for biology (etc) to explain culture neither, because if your going to tell me that, then you should tell me what does explain culture. It didn't fall out of nowhere.


And math is innate, natural and not simply human. Equations for geometrical relationships and all that other jazz describes would have the same validity and reality if humans never put them to paper. The sum of the angles in a triangle is 180 degrees, whether or not you call them degrees, or count them with a base 10 number system, or any of the other little things that humans do. And don't tell me that if we never drew triangles they wouldn't have existed, I don't know much about math, so I can't really think of a more elegant example.
To say science is one of the other things is probably a bit imprecise, since science is really just a way humans have for learning about the universe, it might be more accurate to say physics I guess, referring broadly to the fundamental system of relationships between material things, which whether understood or not, govern activity in the universe.

[CaptainBubba]

you're my new best philosophy board friend papa goat.

[kellychaos]

I am satisfied with that explanation.

Kant, a hero of mine btw, seemed to think that art was the closest that you could get to God ...I suppose you could substitute God for "human nature" in this instance.

[kahljorn]

"Art is a definitively human form of expression, it has nothing to do with the actual nature of anything."

"Human nature wouldn't be different if it wasn't expressed in terms of art. People have a natural tendency to express themselves artistically"
I'll just group these together since they are basically the same

Just the nature of humanity, right? Good thing that's not anything, it's just this thing that exists somewhere but not in this universe and also human beings don't really exist this message board is a lie. So maybe you should consider that before you post your little lies on this message board of lies you dirty liar.
Art is also what, humanities way to express their emotions, to express their feelings on things? That's not part of the universe or anything(it expresses absolutely no nature except for the nature of humanity which is molded by the nature of the universe geez that's weird)?
Their perception on the universe? Human expression and emotion is molded by the nature of this world. As such it is a representation of everything around us, and every force we ever come into contact with. The fact that we are capable of making art is based on biological and psychological conditioning and even physics which eventually loops back to art making us capable of intellectual expression...

Human beings are absolutely unimportant. Math is unimportant, and so is biology. Art is equally as unimportant as the previously mentioned items. For some reason, even if human beings have no understanding of the universe, it still manages to work.
Also I should mention that our entire neuropsychological development that allowed us to discover biology and mathematics was art or human expression. I'm sorry to say but the Nature of sentient organisms evolving is part of this universe and I would say a very important, if not most important(to sentient organisms) part of the universe. I don't know what school you went to but the study of how society has evolved(and how humanity has evolved) is a certain science that I will allow to remain nameless because it wishes to hide from boring eyes.

The argument that art is unimportant because it is a human expression is void of any thought. Human beings are in the universe, and if human beings are in the universe and make art to develop their culture than that is part of the "NATURE OF THE UNIVERSE". Sure, the universe would exist without us, but it could also exist without suns and atoms and whatthefuckeverelse and it probably has existed without them before I believe science mentions something about that with pre-bigbang talk.
Art/expression is/was essential to human development and played a huge part in it. If you don't think human beings being able to communicate with one another is important to their development than you would likely be forming a primative world, because the nature of humanities evolution was built on language and expression. Also, the building you're living in wouldn't be around without the art of masonry, or the art of carpentry or any of the other arts that were expressed and communicated/taught to eachother by means of oral expression.
I don't know, this is a stupid argument that only exists because of scientific dogma on the part of some psuedo-intellectual zealot for science who wants to believe that what they are devoting their life to or what they believe is the only possible true thing and their life is not a waste and when they die the universe will live forever in their memory. Amen.


P.S. I know you're probably thinking of some argument like the universe would exist without us here but the NATURE OF THE UNIVERSE created us and THEN decided to create ART and expression between us that allowed us to develop into what we are today. Obviously you are missing that and all it entails including the fact that EVERYTHING WE HAVE IS NATURAL FOR THE UNIVERSE TO CREATE BECAUSE NOTHING IS UNNATURAL AND IF IT WAS IT WOULDNT EXIST.
Human beings were created by universal nature, art was created by human nature which was created by universal nature to help us develop which is a human nature that was created and controlled and guided by the universal nature.

"And math is innate, natural and not simply human."
the universe wasn't created by numbers, math is merely a way of expressing the universe in a way that human beings can understand. In a sense it is an art because it allows expression of the universe by human beings, just like art does. Arguing outside of humanity is impossible because you are horribly human.
Humans are natural because the universe created them

the end. I don't even know what i wrote.

[kahljorn]

Also I forgot to mention, Pythagoras, the great mathematician had a university in Corona or somesuchspelling that I can't remember because i just woke up. He taught three things there: Philosophy, Mathematics and Music.
I think that's interesting for some reason that may or may not be related to this thread.

[CaptainBubba]

Here. I'll make it simple for ya'll. As far as this argument is concerned:

There is no such thing as importance.

Art and culture are important to us. Good for them. It doesnt mean it has batshit to do with determinism and free will.

[kahljorn]

Yea, like i said it's all unimportant, i don't really know why this argument is in this thread.
Good luck trying to find the answer to freewill and determinism through mathematics, though.
But whether it's important(because nothing is really important, importance is a human expression) or not doesnt eliminate it's validity in an argument, and simply assuming it does because it's unimportant for one reason or another makes you ignorant.

[CaptainBubba]

I shouldn't have to be arguing determinism with you. Its just an aspect of nature. Its just an endpoint from all logical thought.

This whole argument stems from people doing this:

"determism must exist because..."

then someone who doesnt understand what he just said going

"BUT WAIT WHAT ABOUT FLOWERS. FLOWERS ARE PRETTY. THAT HAS TO DO WITH THIS."

[kahljorn]

I wasn't arguing determinism, I was arguing a completely different topic because I thought what was being said about it was rather stupid.

Also, when was the last time all you "Natural mathematicians" saw a "Natural geometrical shape". I'm sorry to say but geometrical shapes are actually very unnatural, and from what I understand one way to tell if something was created intellectually or naturally is by looking at how geometrically perfect an item is, the more perfect the more unnatural. I don't think I've ever seen a natural triangle or a natural straight line.. all of that stuff is human. For creating human objects.
I just thought of that when I was eatting my soup and thought it was funny.

[CaptainBubba]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

I wasn't arguing determinism, I was arguing a completely different topic because I thought what was being said about it was rather stupid.

Also, when was the last time all you "Natural mathematicians" saw a "Natural geometrical shape". I'm sorry to say but geometrical shapes are actually very unnatural, and from what I understand one way to tell if something was created intellectually or naturally is by looking at how geometrically perfect an item is, the more perfect the more unnatural. I don't think I've ever seen a natural triangle or a natural straight line.. all of that stuff is human. For creating human objects.
I just thought of that when I was eatting my soup and thought it was funny.

See, there shouldnt be a distinction between natural and human made because we are part of nature. The only reason it would be prudent to bring that up is if there was a disscusion where that was fairly close to the main point at hand. I'd say more but if you aren't arguing about determinism anymore than this thread is so derailed that I don't know wether I should just nod my head and ignore it or what.

[The One and Only...]

Math is an art: it just happens to be one which, making certain assumptions, can be practically applied. :formalist

[Sethomas]

Shut up.

[The One and Only...]

Good sir, I do believe that is a duel-worthy insult.

[kahljorn]

"See, there shouldnt be a distinction between natural and human made because we are part of nature."

I just made an entire post about that. It wasn't me arguing the distinction, it was others, i was just making a post that would apply to their logic. Thanks...

[Emu]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

Math is an art: it just happens to be one which, making certain assumptions, can be practically applied. :formalist

whenever i read what you right it sounds like "blah blah blah" and then it bounces around in my head like a super ball and i feel a little gayer afterword for reading it.

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by CaptainBubba

I shouldn't have to be arguing determinism with you. Its just an aspect of nature. Its just an endpoint from all logical thought.

This whole argument stems from people doing this:

"determism must exist because..."

then someone who doesnt understand what he just said going

"BUT WAIT WHAT ABOUT FLOWERS. FLOWERS ARE PRETTY. THAT HAS TO DO WITH THIS."

It has to do whether flowers were planned or whether nature evolved in such a way as that the mathematical evolution (nature ordered itself) led to a beautyso that its beauty led to its attractiveness to insects and its continued success and whether beauty and mathematical perfection are the same in human subconscious. Order is the important part here. From whence does it come. That's important!

[kahljorn]

I don't know why more people don't enjoy you on this messageboard, kellychaos, I find you to be entertaining and suave.

[Sethomas]

In my way of thinking, God and human souls designed the big bang to be in such proportions that the beauty of cosmological and natural and human histories would coalesce. Woo.