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Geggy Geggy is offline
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Old Mar 2nd, 2008, 11:32 AM        iraq war cause of us ecomony slowdown
Common sense prevails

Iraq war 'caused slowdown in the US'
Peter Wilson, Europe correspondent | February 28, 2008

THE Iraq war has cost the US 50-60 times more than the Bush administration predicted and was a central cause of the sub-prime banking crisis threatening the world economy, according to Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz.

The former World Bank vice-president yesterday said the war had, so far, cost the US something like $US3trillion ($3.3 trillion) compared with the $US50-$US60-billion predicted in 2003.

Australia also faced a real bill much greater than the $2.2billion in military spending reported last week by Australian Defence Force chief Angus Houston, Professor Stiglitz said, pointing to higher oil prices and other indirect costs of the wars.

Professor Stiglitz told the Chatham House think tank in London that the Bush White House was currently estimating the cost of the war at about $US500 billion, but that figure massively understated things such as the medical and welfare costs of US military servicemen.

The war was now the second-most expensive in US history after World War II and the second-longest after Vietnam, he said.

The spending on Iraq was a hidden cause of the current credit crunch because the US central bank responded to the massive financial drain of the war by flooding the American economy with cheap credit.

"The regulators were looking the other way and money was being lent to anybody this side of a life-support system," he said.

That led to a housing bubble and a consumption boom, and the fallout was plunging the US economy into recession and saddling the next US president with the biggest budget deficit in history, he said.

Professor Stiglitz, an academic at the Columbia Business School and a former economic adviser to president Bill Clinton, said a further $US500 billion was going to be spent on the fighting in the next two years and that could have been used more effectively to improve the security and quality of life of Americans and the rest of the world.

The money being spent on the war each week would be enough to wipe out illiteracy around the world, he said.

Just a few days' funding would be enough to provide health insurance for US children who were not covered, he said.

The public had been encouraged by the White House to ignore the costs of the war because of the belief that the war would somehow pay for itself or be paid for by Iraqi oil or US allies.

"When the Bush administration went to war in Iraq it obviously didn't focus very much on the cost. Larry Lindsey, the chief economic adviser, said the cost was going to be between $US100billion and $US200 billion - and for that slight moment of quasi-honesty he was fired.

"(Then defence secretary Donald) Rumsfeld responded and said 'baloney', and the number the administration came up with was $US50 to $US60 billion. We have calculated that the cost was more like $US3 trillion.

"Three trillion is a very conservative number, the true costs are likely to be much larger than that."

Five years after the war, the US was still spending about $US50billion every three months on direct military costs, he said.

Professor Stiglitz and another Clinton administration economist, Linda Bilmes, have produced a book, The Three Trillion Dollar War, pulling together their research on the true cost of the war, which does not include the cost to Iraq.

One of the greatest discrepancies is that the official figures do not include the long-term healthcare and social benefits for injured servicemen, who are surviving previously fatal attacks because of improved body armour.

"The ratio of injuries to fatalities in a normal war is 2:1. In this war they admitted to 7:1 but a true number is (something) like 15:1."

Some 100,000 servicemen have been diagnosed with serious psychological problems and the soldiers doing the most tours of duty have not yet returned.

Professor Stiglitz attributed to the Iraq war $US5-$US10 of the almost $US80-a-barrel increase in oil prices since the start of the war, adding that it would have been reasonable to attribute more than $US35 of that rise to the war.

He said the British bill for its role in the war was about 20 times the pound stg. 1billion ($2.1 billion) that former prime minister Tony Blair estimated before the war.

The British Government was yesterday ordered to release details of its planning for the war, when the country's Information Commissioner backed a Freedom of Information request for the minutes of two cabinet meetings in the days before the war.

Commissioner Richard Thomas said that because of the importance of the decision to go to war, the public interest in disclosing the minutes outweighed the public interest in withholding the information.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...9-2703,00.html
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Old Mar 2nd, 2008, 07:13 PM       
the devil you say
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Old Mar 2nd, 2008, 07:23 PM       
Not my doing!
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Old Mar 2nd, 2008, 07:39 PM       
Statements like :
"The money being spent on the war each week would be enough to wipe out illiteracy around the world, he said.

Just a few days' funding would be enough to provide health insurance for US children who were not covered, he said."

Are so reckless. People think that that means it is a forever thing, but it usually means that we can build places to learn but can only pay people to teach for 1 day and all the US children get health care for 1 day and then we need more money. Now all the people who want to end the war will be expecting life long miracles and be disapointed when it doesn't happen and we'll be right back to wondering where all this magical money is and loose even more respect for leadership.
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Old Mar 2nd, 2008, 11:18 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadao View Post
Statements like :
"The money being spent on the war each week would be enough to wipe out illiteracy around the world, he said.

Just a few days' funding would be enough to provide health insurance for US children who were not covered, he said."

Are so reckless.
I think it's meant more to give some meaning to a number that is pretty unimaginable. If you had 100 million dollars and spent one dollar every second, you would come back for more in about 3 years. Doing the same with 100 billion dollars would take you 3 millenia, about the length of recorded history. We're talking 30 times this last amount, which is a pretty enormous figure.

There's no denying that this "police action" is costing the US over 50 times the Bush Admin's original figures. And the figure is still growing.
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Old Mar 2nd, 2008, 11:26 PM       
I think I'm just being sensitive to those kinds of phrases because I know money will never go to that. Not ever.
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Old Mar 3rd, 2008, 07:11 PM       
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Originally Posted by Tadao View Post
Now all the people who want to end the war will be expecting life long miracles and be disapointed when it doesn't happen and we'll be right back to wondering where all this magical money is and loose even more respect for leadership.
"Magic money" is right. Funny how we can spend money we don't have on killing people in other countries, but not on helping people in our own.

Just once, I'd like to hear about a budget deficit brought on through spending on education.
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Old Mar 5th, 2008, 07:23 AM       
One can only dream with what could be the best idea to save the US is to hold the high officials of banks, gas and oil companies and defense contractors accountable for defrauding the government and holding the americans as hostages and then nationalize their lucrative profits.

But I know that wil never be the reality. Impreaching Bush for war crimes would be a nice start. Stop spending money on the war machine and restore social sercurty, edcuation and reform health insurance. with all the money we pour into the war there's no reason why we shouldn't have free college edcuation for everybody who qualifies, have unversial health plan and a nice retirement plan. Babyboomers are turning into eldery the second highest population group after teenagers. Who the hell are going to take care of them? Teenagers are too busy shopping. Everybody else is too busy working supporting their spending habits. Stop worshipping the rich. Americans just passed Japan for having the most work hours. We're stuck in consumerism. We keep buying, buying and buying for stuff we don't need and get second jobs just to have all this junk which they're too busy to enjoy. Corporations need to look after their own people instead of the bottom dollar. Other european countries work 6 hour days, have 6 week paid vacation and have full health plan, they are less stress out, happier and enjoy their lives. They have a better quaitity of life, less illness, less divroce and less crime. They have better maternity leave for both men and women. Here we kick them out of the hospital the day after birth because health insurance doesn't want to pay and give men nothing.
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Old Mar 5th, 2008, 10:28 AM       
Men have babies?
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Geggy Geggy is offline
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Old Mar 5th, 2008, 03:48 PM       
bend over and find out

really i didnt realize that my posts are riddled with typos and grammar errors while i wait for my cup of coffee to cool down
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Mar 5th, 2008, 05:39 PM       
There is free college tuition for everyone who qualifies. They are called scholarships.

The problem with our current system is not under funding. Its an over bloated bureaucracy and a populace that doesn't seemed too concerned with their own health.

How about people take care of themselves rather than have an inept government or greedy corporation do it? Pretty much every "problem" you've outlined has more to do with our own irresponsible behavior than government or corporate failure.
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Old Mar 5th, 2008, 11:25 PM       
But the purpose of government is to curb human irresponsibility and shittiness and organize us into a functioning whole which can progress
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Mar 6th, 2008, 04:45 PM       
No, a government should take care of the administrative needs of a functioning society. It is also there to enforce the social contracts amongst members of said society. How the hell can they curb our irresponsibility like they are our parents when they are selected from amongst us?
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Mar 6th, 2008, 05:36 PM       
double post. Stupid forum software.
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Last edited by El Blanco : Mar 6th, 2008 at 05:39 PM. Reason: forum software blows.
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Geggy Geggy is offline
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Old Mar 7th, 2008, 01:51 PM       
Scholarships and grants are limited to intelluctual and athletic elites. I'm saying that the US government has (irresponisbly) spent enough money on Iraq war that should have been provided for free education to all who have received acceptance letters from college and universities.
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Mar 7th, 2008, 06:22 PM       
Quote:
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Scholarships and grants are limited to intelluctual and athletic elites.
Ummm, ya. Also, the artistic elite. Basically, people who prove themselves especially talented in an area society deems especially valuable are sent to an institution meant for honing those skills.

Quote:
I'm saying that the US government has (irresponisbly) spent enough money on Iraq war that should have been provided for free education to all who have received acceptance letters from college and universities.
There are so many things wrong with that sentence, I don't know where to begin.

1) The government wouldn't have spent that money on anything else

2) Wealth is not a zero sum resource

And weren't you preaching about Ron Paul not too long ago?

3) A college education is not a human right. It must be earned. Thats why there are acceptance letters in the first place. Thats why you can be expelled
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Old Mar 8th, 2008, 11:47 AM       
god money's not looking for the cure
god money's not concerned about the sick among the pure
god money let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised
god money's not one to choose

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no, you can't take that away from me
no, you can't take it
no, you can't take it
no, you can't take that away from me
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Old Mar 8th, 2008, 11:28 PM       
Quote:
No, a government should take care of the administrative needs of a functioning society. It is also there to enforce the social contracts amongst members of said society. How the hell can they curb our irresponsibility like they are our parents when they are selected from amongst us?
By taking care of the administrative needs of a functioning society? duh? How can parents take care of us when they are selected from amongst us?

What does enforcing a social contract mean other than making sure people don't fuck eachother over constantly? A social contract is an agreement to act a certain way in exchange for certain benefits. Acting that certain way is a "Responsibility" or a duty. The way in which people agree to act is something deemed non-shitty and responsible in relation to the further functioning of a functioning society.
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Mar 9th, 2008, 11:12 AM       
Shut up, pinko.
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Old Mar 22nd, 2008, 07:00 PM       
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Originally Posted by Tadao View Post
I think I'm just being sensitive to those kinds of phrases because I know money will never go to that. Not ever.
I can understand your pessimism and that's why we should all vote for change. We should all vote for... Barack Obama!

His kisses have been known to cure malaria and disarm nuclear missiles, BTW.

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Old Mar 22nd, 2008, 07:09 PM       
A person from Chicago liking Barack Obama? How novel!
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Colonel Flagg Colonel Flagg is offline
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Old Mar 22nd, 2008, 07:37 PM       
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[...] we should all vote for change. We should all vote for... Barack Obama!
One small problem with that - he hasn't been nominated yet - there's still the fun that is to be the Democratic Convention - 4 days of mass hysteria and confusion in the Mile-High City.

I'd fit right in.
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Old Mar 22nd, 2008, 09:31 PM       
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Originally Posted by ChicagoDrew View Post
I can understand your pessimism and that's why we should all vote for change. We should all vote for... Barack Obama!

His kisses have been known to cure malaria and disarm nuclear missiles, BTW.
When he's president, you will never vote agin. Your trust will be shattered.
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