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Jeanette X Jeanette X is offline
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 06:22 PM        Re: Koran & Murder Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kulturkampf
Taken from TimesOnline.

"COPIES of the Koran were handed to the jurors in the Abu Hamza trial yesterday as his defence argued that some of the cleric’s “offensive” statements were drawn directly from Islam’s holy book.

Edward Fitzgerald, QC, for the defence, said that Abu Hamza’s interpretation of the Koran was that it imposed an obligation on Muslims to do jihad and fight in the defence of their religion. He said that the Crown case against the former imam of Finsbury Park Mosque was “simplistic in the extreme”.

He added: “It is said he was preaching murder, but he was actually preaching from the Koran itself.” "

In defense of hateful and speech inciting to violence, an Imam is defended by multiculturalists in the sense that this violence and jihad is an integral part of his culture and his holy book.

It is excellent when liberal doctrine gets them to begin justifying Islamic fundamentalism preaching murder of Jews as being a right due to a multicultural heritage -- just put a clown nose on and get it over with.
Which verses are they even talking about? I bet you certainly wouldn't even know offhand.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 06:24 PM       
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He does not bother to address any of the issues or questions that we have concerning the utter hatred in it, and how it has been used by Islamists to reference times where apparently trees were calling out "Come here, there is a Jew hiding behind me -- kill him!"
Um.

1) The Prophet Mohammed had Jewish friends who supported him. In his Hadiths, he referred to them as 'friends.' He referred to them as 'fellows,' members of the same human species. He did not call anyone an enemy unless they threatened to kill him. He was also very forgiving.

2) Many Hadiths suggest that he never felt like it was right to hate anyone, mainly because the Koran is strongly against 'hate.' In fact, the word 'hate' is not included in the Koran.

3) He forgave a Jewish woman called Hind from his tribe who killed his uncle Hamza (who was also one of his biggest supporters.) She also ate his kidney in front of the Prophet as an insult. She later converted to Islam.

4) Paradise is there for non-Muslims too. This is a fact and if you try to deny this then you should go back to square one, because everyone I know who's studied Islam knows this.

5) It is officially against Islam to not accept (or judge) anyone merely because they are from a different religion. In its own words, it's considered "foolish" and "shameful," how do you expect to grow intellectually if you're not willing to accept people the way they are?

6) It is officially against Islam to forcefully convert anyone.
"You have your own religion, they have theirs." In other words, let them be.

I will scan these lines from the verses I am referring to, if only to show you how incredibly ignorant you are. After I scan these in, give them to any Arabic speaker. Tell them the name of the verse and the page number those lines are in and you will realize how little you know.

If you copy anything to me (ESPECIALLY FROM THE INTERNET), I want to know the page number in the Koran. I then want to translate the proper line for you and if you want tell you where you can find an Arabic to English dictionary so you can do some work yourself.

I spoke about me being Muslim because I want to stress the fact that I speak through experience, I'm not making things up for the sake of stirring shit with you. It's normal for me to be passionate about something I grew up with, it's important for me to defend a religion that is misunderstood, I find it disgusting that you're not even giving me a chance, as a Muslim, to explain things to you from my own point of you. It goes to say how you're not willing to learn. It's dangerous to walk in here thinking you have a mind better than anyone else's. If someone puts me in my place, I would shut my mouth and learn a thing or two instead of kicking and screaming like a fucking fetus. You're entitled to your own opinion but being exposed to mine would mean that you would have a better argument next time, so I'm doing this for your own good. You'd be considering all of my points instead of jumping up and down trying to convince others that you have something of substance to say. You really don't.

Remember.

Page numbers. Reliable Hadith references. You got up someone's ass because they said it's shady that a Jew would translate the Koran and yet you feel like they'd do it without being biased at ALL (ha!), but I wonder what your opinion would be if a Muslim would write a book about Judaism. Surely you wouldn't depend on that as an introduction to the world of the Jews?
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 06:36 PM       
So, as a Muslim, what's your view on gay marriage, I, fuzzbot?
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 06:48 PM       
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Originally Posted by Pharaoh
So, as a Muslim, what's your view on gay marriage, I, fuzzbot?
Gay marriage is against my religion. However, I am not a homophobe, neither are many Muslims, because that mentality would go against the Koran.

There is nothing wrong with two people of the same sex wanting to commit. Religion should not be taken into consideration when enforcing such policies. The Islamic Sharia law is exactly what's wrong with the Middle East, because it's ruining how "outsiders" perceive Islam. How is this religious text any different than the Bible which states that a marriage should only take place between a "man" and a "woman"? It's exactly the same in the Koran.

If it's against the beliefs of their religions, then they should know the consequences of participating in a homosexual relationship. The Koran promotes freedom of decision and independence. No one has the right to disallow people in love from taking their normal, functioning relationship up to another level. It would cause nothing but unhappiness and further chaos if everyone continued calling homosexual relationships "a mockery" and homosexuals "sinners." Personally I think gay people should have the right to get married, because regardless of their sexual preferences, they are still people who should be afforded the same rights as other people whose preferences may be different from theirs.

It doesn't mean that I'd do it, being a Muslim and all. But it also doesn't give me the right to hate or protest against them because it's as bad as racism which is highly discouraged in the Koran.

A homosexual who goes to the mosque is still better than a hetereosexual who doesn't follow the five basic pillars of Islam.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 07:22 PM       
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Originally Posted by Pharaoh
It's certainly hard to take you seriously, I mean you do realise this trial is in Britain don't you? I don't there'll be 12 middle Americans on the jury somehow.
Oh gosh that completely invalidates everything I said..
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 07:40 PM       
but I'm glad Kulture and Pharoah are here to point out the hate in Muslim culture, without being completely and unquestionably racist themselves...
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 08:01 PM       
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Originally Posted by ScruU2wice
but I'm glad Kulture and Pharoah are here to point out the hate in Muslim culture, without being completely and unquestionably racist themselves...
It gets tiring hearing them argue. Kinda like sticking breadcrumbs on a stained window and watching feathered birds crash into the glass.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 09:39 PM       
"Do you know how he gained his popularity at first? He promised modernization. "

Ahmednijad's roll in the hostage crisis wasn't enough indication of his ideals?

"The Islamic Sharia law is exactly what's wrong with the Middle East, because it's ruining how "outsiders" perceive Islam."

When we talk about Shari'a laws we're talking about the negative aspects of it...stonings, etc. There is something inherently wrong about murder and it has nothing to do with how outsiders percieve or possibly even misconstrue it. That was a telling statement you made.


"3) He forgave a Jewish woman called Hind from his tribe who killed his uncle Hamza (who was also one of his biggest supporters.) She also ate his kidney in front of the Prophet as an insult. She later converted to Islam. "

Really not a great story to use as an example of tolerance or how Jews are your cousins.

"they said it's shady that a Jew would translate the Koran and yet you feel like they'd do it without being biased at ALL (ha!)"

What's shady is the assumption that all linguists work from a national or religious bias. The translators personal background shouldn't be a factor. Either it's accurate, or it's not. Since we essentially agree the Koran can not be translated to English without variation , and that many of these translations warrant debate of interpretation, it goes much deeper then that. There are certainly Muslims for which that more extreme translation is accurate. Again, your concern over these translations is really one of perception from outsiders...but the greater concern is the accpetance of these thoughts within your own community. We both know issues like "is it okayto beat your woman" are commonly discussed on Islamic web forums. That it's even still a question, is a source of outrage.


"If it's against the beliefs of their religions, then they should know the consequences of participating in a homosexual relationship. The Koran promotes freedom of decision and independence."

This is a different style of thinking altogether, which to Western minds reads like a contradiction. You say homosexuality has consequences, yet in the next breath, you say the Koran promotes their independence....independence to what... commit acts which will lead to further consequences. So it turns out there isn't such a contradiction in that case after all, and the freedom, and independence does not offer forgiveness of protection for the Islamic homosexual.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 10:31 PM        Re: Koran & Murder Case
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Originally Posted by Jeanette X
Which verses are they even talking about? I bet you certainly wouldn't even know offhand.
Of course not. I am not a Muslim. I have better things than to read a book that encourages the murder of Jews.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 10:56 PM       
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Old Jan 22nd, 2006, 11:17 PM        Re: Koran & Murder Case
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Originally Posted by Kulturkampf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanette X
Which verses are they even talking about? I bet you certainly wouldn't even know offhand.
Of course not. I am not a Muslim. I have better things than to read a book that encourages the murder of Jews.
So you have better things to do than expand your horizons in the hopes of understanding those you hate a little more? Fine then, carry on with your fag-drags or whatever it is you skinheads do.
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 04:44 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by I, fuzzbot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
So, as a Muslim, what's your view on gay marriage, I, fuzzbot?
Gay marriage is against my religion. However, I am not a homophobe, neither are many Muslims, because that mentality would go against the Koran.
OK, but how would you feel if a Muslim who opposed gay marriage posted his views here in a civilized way and yet was unanimously condemned and called a bigot, moron, asshole etc?
Would it make any difference if he was a Christian? Because it seems to me that liberals, whilst totally opposed to even moderate Christianity, are willing to accept without criticism even quite homophobic Islamic views.
They would like to see the end of Christianity and yet are welcoming Islam with open arms, even though it's less moderate on issues like gay and women's rights.


Quote:
Originally Posted by I, fuzzbot.
The Islamic Sharia law is exactly what's wrong with the Middle East, because it's ruining how "outsiders" perceive Islam.
Yes but the problem is, I don't know about the US but a clear majority of UK Muslims want Islamic law introduced into this country.


Quote:
Originally Posted by I, fuzzbot.

A homosexual who goes to the mosque is still better than a hetereosexual who doesn't follow the five basic pillars of Islam.
So you're saying any homosexual who goes to the mosque is better than any atheistic hetereosexual? Interesting.
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 04:47 AM       
Pharoah summed it up.
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 06:25 AM       
Pharoah, you haven't proven anything - You said that you have a koran and that it's wrong. If you're going to go through another religion's holy book and look to see whether it squares with your religion's holy book for "veracity", it's clear that you didn't absorb any of it and just got it so that you can use it as a resource for pulling out one-liners to back up why you're justified in hating yet another demographic.

What you have is not the koran, it's a strategy guide to hackneyed political debate. I don't trust your ability to understand the meaning behind anything in the book if you think all of it is 'wrong,' and therefore I do not accept whatever interpretations of its text you might have to offer. So far you've offered nothing, but I wouldn't put it past you to chalk that up to not being challenged on it. But here's your big chance! Could you read aloud from Saad 3:16?

YOUR RELIGION IS WRONG. AND GAY.
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 08:27 AM       
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Originally Posted by Pharaoh
So you're saying any homosexual who goes to the mosque is better than any atheistic hetereosexual? Interesting.
No, what he is saying is that any homosexual who truly follows the NON-HATEFUL, TRUE TEACHINGS OF ISLAM is a better person that a straight person who is a heartless bastard that doesn't believe in anything.
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 10:21 AM       
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Ahmednijad's roll in the hostage crisis wasn't enough indication of his ideals?
He justified his actions regarding that and they fell for it. People are prepared to overlook little facts like these if he's going to talk about things like "the greater good."
Quote:
When we talk about Shari'a laws we're talking about the negative aspects of it...stonings, etc.
No, when we're talking aout the Sharia law we are talking about the Muslim countries that have adopted and adapted to this law, and how they have interpreted/skewed it to fit their own personal needs. It's called a 'law' for a reason, it's what you should live by. If the Royals in Saudi don't want you to do a particular thing, they will slap it in that document and call it 'haram,' which means 'the forbidden,' (i.e, it's against Islam, so don't do it.) Even though it's really not, but if you do it this way, no one can question you, because you'd be considered a Kafir (infidel) and they'd have an excuse to lock you up.
Quote:
it has nothing to do with how outsiders percieve or possibly even misconstrue it.
You see, for example, I think there's a good chance that someone might misunderstand the Sharia law when it comes to stoning, because of the brutal approach and the events that took place in Nigeria and Saudi Arabia, who consider this sort of thing justifiable because it's part of the law. These things receive plenty of media coverage, too, so no doubt would they mislead people into thinking that the Sharia law is a piece of shit crap which is more proof of "the fact" that Islam is gross, sexist, and inconsiderate.

This means that people won't depend on what the Sharia law actually is, they'd depend on what happens in the countries that use it, and like I've already stated before most of it is made up for obvious reasons. It's called having absolute power while trying to brainwash the citizens into thinking that they're being exposed to proper Islam. So they follow it, since many of these people cannot afford a good education, but these people are the kind of people who lack interest in this sort of thing. As long as there's bread on the table and a roof on top of their head, they won't rebel and risk their lives and the lives of their families.

Quote:
Really not a great story to use as an example of tolerance or how Jews are your cousins.
It fits perfectly - Kulturasdfsdfkampf said we HATE Jews, pretty much, and we don't accept them because of their beliefs. The Hadith I referred to shows how forgiving, accepting, and understanding the Prophet is. That is how Muslims should be, therefore, thinking of Jews as our enemies and not our cousins is incredibly wrong, because that's how the Prophet did it, and we should follow his example.

Why don't you look up the history of Yemen and the presence of Christianity there, amongst Islam? Why don't you look up the history of Jordan and look at the presence of Judaism there, amongst Islam? Why don't you look up the history of Lebannon* and see how the Christians and Muslims were living in the same definite terrority? What does that tell you about Islam and tolerance?

(*The civil war was a political and territorial dispute and not religious. Same thing with Iran and Iraq which people constantly misinterpret. Religion is just easier to blame.)

Quote:
The translators personal background shouldn't be a factor. Either it's accurate, or it's not.
Yes, but who the hell decides? You don't know if it's accurate or not ESPECIALLY if you do not speak the language, this is why Muslim converts learn Arabic. This is why Arabic is a requirement in a lot of Indonesian schools, and schools in Bosnia, so they can understand the Koran, not just so they can communicate with the Arabs. These people realize that they have to read it for themselves in order to know what's being said.

For example, Kulturasdfsfkamp has been mislead by the books he's relying on. I suggest you read 'No God but God' by Reza Aslan if you want to be blown away by how wrong he is. It gives you a great history of Islam and its relationships with Christianity and Judaism throughout the years. Through this book you may even understand few parts of the conflicts between Israel and Palestine. This book shines the light on Christianity and Judaism as well, it's not "this is this and that is that," it's "this is this which quite possibly lead to that." It's great for discussion, because it also shows you how the problem is WITHIN Islam, and that the West and other religions are merely bystanders. We are against each other because we disagree with each other's personal opinions and theories, we all strive to be the dominant sub-group of Muslims. Like we disagree with the Shiites because we think that the Koran is our final authority. They disagree with us in that the Prophet Mohammed is the most significant prophet since he was the official messenger. They believe more in Hassan and Hussain.

Quote:
OK, but how would you feel if a Muslim who opposed gay marriage posted his views here in a civilized way and yet was unanimously condemned and called a bigot, moron, asshole etc?
Unless he was being a dick about it, (basically saying that gays shouldn't exist in a polite manner, which I've seen other Muslims do) I'd say it's wrong for those people to have such a reaction. I don't really see what this has to do with anything, though.
Quote:
Yes but the problem is, I don't know about the US but a clear majority of UK Muslims want Islamic law introduced into this country.
Muslims in the UK are paranoid because of things like the BNP. I don't ever agree with how Muslims react in places like the Netherlands and the UK. I don't call this Islam. For the most part it's just a bunch of fucks trying to rile you up and have a laugh about it, honestly. It saddens me that they're destroying a religion and how it's perceived elsewhere by being immature pricks. Though violence against Muslims does exist in the UK. I've had female friends who were threatened and bullied after the London attacks simply for wearing the veil, I don't think that is right. It's understandable, but nothing justfies that sort of behavior.

I live in Switzerland, the Muslims here don't demand anything. We have a small gathering place in an apartment where we pray together on Friday and Sunday. I've asked if anyone would like to see an actual mosque here one of these days, they said it doesn't matter if you're in a mosque or a bowling alley or a park, as long as you're together praying then God knows you're doing it and although a mosque would be nice, it's not a requirement. You'll still have the same amount of blessings if you pray elsewhere, together. It's the unity that counts. The feeling of brotherhood, that sense of community. And outside Islam this should apply in a larger sense - Allah doesn't reject Christianity in its entirity, so why should we? In the end we believe in the same God and manage to live in a place where threats don't exist, because in most religions, unacceptance and dismssing someone else's beliefs as "bullshit" is not tolerable.

Tell me something, okay?

If we supposedly hate people of other religions, why would there be 6 Churches and 2 Bible schools in a country that follows the Sharia law? Why would Imams salute the Christians whose church is right across the street from a mosque I usually go to? Why does no one say anything when the Church bell goes while the Imam is doing his prayers out loud? Why can't we protect ourselves from the "BAD EVIL" non-believers if they're right there? Oh, that's right, it's against our religion!

You're assuming that it's very Muslim to hate others and not accept them just because they follow a system of different beliefs. That is untrue. It is very un-Islamic for anyone to hate Christians, Jews, homosexuals, just because they think and act differently. It doesn't matter in Islam - we are all one no matter WHICH God we believe in, even athiests do not deserve to be hated or judged. It's their decision. That is what the Koran says. It gives YOU limits, it doesn't give you the right to give anyone else limits. If they don't act a certain way, you advice them, but you don't force them to do anything.

Do you know why that is? It's because God is all about testing your faith. Testing your faith and your patience is a big theme in the Koran. If something happens to you, as a Muslim, and you feel unprotected and away from God, then you've lost, because after losing you didn't hold on to a religion that's raised you into the person you are today. You can wake up to a dead wife and a burned house and if you thought "where the fuck was God when this happened?", you didn't read that closely into the Koran, because God was there. God was there and He saw it coming and is waiting for your reaction to see whether or not you've meant your prayers, whether you've really tried to understand the meaning behind the words of the Koran, those words that brush against your lips like a careless whisper.

God will protect you, but in the Koran he's stated that he CAN and he very well MAY test you in whichever way he finds it fit. It's beyond our control. It's God's will.

Quote:
You say homosexuality has consequences, yet in the next breath, you say the Koran promotes their independence....independence to what... commit acts which will lead to further consequences
That's not what I meant, let me try again.

The Koran promotes INDEPENDENCE IN GENERAL. Not the independence of homosexuality. It promotes independence because only YOU can decide what's wrong or right upon reading the Koran. If you've read it and disagree, it's no one's loss but yours. If you've read it and you can follow it, more power to you, because God will be on your side during judgement day.

If you reject the Koran it's your personal decision and God won't punish you in this life. You still have a chance to make things right and that's the whole POINT, your faith in Him. The more you question things, the more you understand, the more you understand the closer to God you are. Get it? You think of Koran as a book that strips you away from all of your rights but in fact it gives you the right to do whatever you want as long as you think about the consequences that come with it. Aside from that, there are exceptions, because God is merciful and forgiving. In my example: If a homosexual Muslim went to the mosque everyday and didn't feel bad that he's attracted to men rather than women, and if a heterosexual Muslim beats his wife everyday and forbids her from doing anything she wants, the homosexual Muslim will definitely have more chance of getting into our idea of paradise than the abusing heterosexual Muslim. Good deeds is a must, no matter who does it from whichever religion.

Do you want to know the most valuable lesson I've learned from the Koran? Your personal relationship with God should not be confined to a certain religion or their customs. You should feel equally at home with God anywhere. In a church, in a mosque, or on the street. It's because that ISLAM taught me this lesson, this lesson that I haven't learned when studying other religions, is why I like being Muslim. It makes me want to open doors to other religions. This is how every Muslim should feel if they've been studying the Koran properly. Unfortunately the Koran is taught differently and inaccurately in many places, especially Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Egypt, and Pakistan. It's sad. But notice how many terrorists roam around these areas too.

I think this is pretty much all I have to say about this matter. It's hard spoon-feeding, there's a lot you have to dig through before you get where you are. I'm talking about years of extensive research and not a book or a brochure. It takes more than one book for you to be able to compare and contrast and come up with the differences yourself, this is the only reason why people who don't speak Arabic taught themselves a lot of what they need to know about Islam. Books, reading, a wide variety of authors, perhaps even a visit to a Muslim country.
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 10:50 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin
Pharoah, you haven't proven anything - You said that you have a koran and that it's wrong. If you're going to go through another religion's holy book and look to see whether it squares with your religion's holy book for "veracity", it's clear that you didn't absorb any of it and just got it so that you can use it as a resource for pulling out one-liners to back up why you're justified in hating yet another demographic.

What you have is not the koran, it's a strategy guide to hackneyed political debate. I don't trust your ability to understand the meaning behind anything in the book if you think all of it is 'wrong,' and therefore I do not accept whatever interpretations of its text you might have to offer. So far you've offered nothing, but I wouldn't put it past you to chalk that up to not being challenged on it. But here's your big chance! Could you read aloud from Saad 3:16?

YOUR RELIGION IS WRONG. AND GAY.
I haven't got a religion, you numbskull. I'm an atheist, as I've said before, but I much prefer Christianity and the New Testament to Islam and the Koran. I've got a Koran which I've read and I found it aggressive and intolerant of other religions. That's my opinion of it, and if you read it, all of it, whatever translation, you'll see what I mean.
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 10:51 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by I, fuzzbot.
You're assuming that it's very Muslim to hate others and not accept them just because they follow a system of different beliefs.
I think that's a very Human thing to do, despite our better nature/beliefs.
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 10:52 AM       
Atheism is a religion that is both wrong and gay. Chojin wins!
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 10:55 AM       
Thank you for ignoring 95% of that and correcting an irrelevant error instead, Pharoah. The hallmark of a winner, and might I add, this forum.

If you're going to reply without reading, could I at least request that you be funny? It's more or less an unspoken rule around here.
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 11:11 AM       
By the way, what do you people mean by 'gay', when used as an insult? I'm curious. How can you claim you're not anti-gay and yet use 'gay' as if it's a something bad? It seems inconsistent to me.
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imported_I, fuzzbot. imported_I, fuzzbot. is offline
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 11:14 AM       
Quote:
and if you read it, all of it, whatever translation, you'll see what I mean.
No, he won't see what you mean, and I've already explained why. You've read one translation, don't try to lie and tell me that 'ANY' translation is going to be identical to that one. Maybe the next translation you lay your hands on will make you think twice about the shit you've been spewing.

I've gone out of my way to explain things to you and the likes of you and here you are closing your eyes and ears and yelling over our voices as if yours is the only one worth hearing.

Your ill-informed opinions aren't valid, I decided to post lengthy responses in order to make things clearer for you. It's not working.

This is because you are stupid. Chojin wins!
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I was reading a rather droll bio on Elvis Presley and read that he polypharmed, and I think that Polly Pharmer would make a great pen name.
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Chojin Chojin is offline
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 11:15 AM       
I cannot abide by your murder of mirth, you gay kike.

The fact that you would even ask is pretty telling of your ability to grasp anything, ever. It's like you're some adorably naive bigoted robot.
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 11:23 AM       


By the way, what do you people mean by 'gay', when used as an insult? I'm curious. How can you claim you're not anti-gay and yet use 'gay' as if it's a something bad? It seems inconsistent to me.
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Old Jan 23rd, 2006, 11:26 AM       
You can't call Data a bigot! His best friend was a blind negroe!
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