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ziggytrix ziggytrix is offline
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Old May 4th, 2006, 11:27 PM       
for me the difference is simply one of scale. specifically, scale of time.

100 years is a long time. 1000 years is a really long time. 10000 years is nigh inconceivable for me. logically, i can understand it, but emotionally it is quite alien. so 4.5 billion years (the scientifically accepted age of the Earth) is right out.

it is less logically satisfying, but quite emotionally acceptable to think some clever diety created everything within the past 10000 years, but gave it all a very convincing false history.
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Old May 4th, 2006, 11:38 PM       
PJALNE SAYS:
Quote:
True, but the evolutionary theory is still falsifiable and testable. Scientists have long claimed that there must have been a fish with amphibian qualities at a certain point in history. This creature must have had a primitive wrist and certain other qualities that cohere with the already established evolutionary charts. And last month they found it, and it was exactly the right age.
How do you feel about that, preechr?

While we're talking about that, how do you feel about dinosaurs with feathers? Or any of the other transitional fossils that have been uncovered?

P.S. the part that I feel is important about this is that they actually PREDICTED the age and qualities that the creature would have. If evolution is wrong, how is it that they have this evolutionary chart of what transitional creatures should be where at what time, and it's accurate? They have to be doing something correctly, because they are capable of predicting the evolutionary sequence. Is it coincidence? because that's a damn big coincidence. That's like guessing a complicated math question, on more than one occasion.
What I'm implying here is that their evolutionary chart they use to make predictions has been proved accurate on more than one occasion. Also, every creationist who has ever argued against evolution has said, "Where's this information/creature" and they PROVIDED IT based on their chart predictions.
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Old May 5th, 2006, 05:25 AM       
I really hate these threads where two people just bathe in their own "oh god I kick so much ass" posts, then disguise it as an argument. Make sure to use spell check and proper grammar, or else someone might think your argument isnt' sound!
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Old May 5th, 2006, 08:57 AM       
Kahl, I am not avoiding your arguments. I am trying to respond to you as briefly as possible in order to avoid this thing spiraling off into idiocy and pointlessness again. I'm trying my best not to "big picture" you. I have to work today, though, and I won't be able to play till tonight. As for pjalne's example of interspecies evolution, please remember in the last thread that I specifically begged for proof like that. I'd love to see the link.

BPG: I'm glad you liked that. Mockers tend to take me way too seriously. I will do my level best to explain to you why the difference is important because the good Lord Jesus knows that's the only point of discussion in this argument that interests me.

Ziggy, I am not a creationist. I am not a Christian. I have been told my beliefs are closest to Deism, but I lost interest in figuring out to whose beliefs my own conform a long time ago. To me, it's logically satisfying and pretty damn obvious that some clever diety created everything with a big bang at a scientifically proveable point in time about 4.5 billion years ago.

SF345: Who, me? Ok.
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Old May 5th, 2006, 12:06 PM       
Preechr, I don't know how this discussion started and what you said that riled people up or vice versa. You say speciation (or common descent, I don't remember) is an area you're uncomfortable with, which is a personal thing and not anything you have to answer to anyone about. If, however, you have suggested ID or any related quasi-science should be treated as science and taught in schools, that's invading science with personal preference, which is bullshit. Science is about the objective world, and should not be halted by religion, politics or subjective views. Like I said, I have no idea how this thing originated, and if this is a personal thing you're not interested in defending or explaining on the internet, I see no reason why anyone should ask you to.

By the way, here's one of the articles available about that amphibian fish:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0406100543.htm

There's a link to the original press release at the bottom. Curiously, none of them note that the back fourth or third of the animal wasn't found.
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Old May 5th, 2006, 12:17 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preechr
To me, it's logically satisfying and pretty damn obvious that some clever diety created everything with a big bang at a scientifically proveable point in time about 4.5 billion years ago.
So you have no problem with the notion that all the matter in the universe was contained in a singularity at the Big Bang (which is estimated to be 13.7, not 4.5, billion years ago). But somehow we got a planet full of all these different species... well... how, if not thru macroevolution?




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Originally Posted by Supafly345
I am so suave. Watch me tell off these nerds.
Supafly, stick to drawing pretty pictures, OK? If anyone on this board has a habit of posting like they think they kick so much ass, you certainly aren't one to be calling them on it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pjalne
Preechr, I don't know how this discussion started and what you said that riled people up or vice versa.
Pj, his remarks that riled me were in Scru's "Politics in School" thread, and this one in particular bugs me: "The main reason I hate this debate is that evolutionists generally refuse to admit that this is a debate of opinions and ultimately one of sociology rather than science." (emphasis mine)

Apparently geology, biology, and chemistry are all soft-science branches of sociology?
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Old May 5th, 2006, 03:28 PM       
I think in this particular thread the argument got foisted onto preechr though, notwithstanding his outrageous statements in previous threads.

But ya, I guess if your view is about evolution as a sociological construct, (omg that sounds so wretched I could barely type it) then I guess what I'd like to hear is why you think that. This stuff about how the pursuit of power is interwoven with the pursuit of truth doesn't actually sound entirely crazy to me, one can see how ideologies of history such as marx's used 'evolutionary' ideas to describe how human beings could obtain power over their own nature and the rest of nature by 'becoming' something other than human beings, and such. (it's all gnosticism )
Alright, maybe that Marx example won't make a lot of sense to most people, hopefully I'm making a bit of sense to you though, preechr. In any case, such a system as Marx's isn't exactly like biological evolution, and since you've already said you can accept evolution within a species, I suppose such 'evolutionary' systems aren't a problem for you as such. Alright, so I'm done trying to guess at why you think evolution is a social construct, but I'm interested in hearing about it, if you'd be willing to discuss this aspect of your views further. Not a bunch of jazz about skepticism and the theroy of evolution as such, but rather the reasons you think evolution is a social construct, what social forces are constructing it, for what sociological reasons and so on. Because frankly, I'm rather mystified about why you think it's a social construct.
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Old May 5th, 2006, 03:58 PM       
We've talked about the fact that they've found interspecies fossils a few times. Maybe I just didn't enunciate it clearly enough for you when I said that they attempt to find fossils to make a link between now and back then.

If you visit the site that ziggy posted it has more than a few examples of interspecies fossils. MORE THAN A FEW. Along with many other connections between species, including how they can estimate which species should be where on the common descent list, how they are related, what they lead to and how accurate it is. So if i were you I'd consider clicking that link.

On that page they have an example of a whale with legs, the connection between mammal and reptilian jaw/ears, I think they mention the old Reptile-bird guy as well. Like I said, someone posts links that could satisfy you and you don't even click them to find out.

Ziggy's link to transitional species

What I want to know is how do you feel that they are capable of predicting so many aspects of this? If you read that entire link you'll get a fairly large list of predictions they have made that were accurate, and even predictions that would prove evolution wrong. I don't know if you know this but generally with mathematics if you're "Guessing' numbers your answer is probably going to be wrong. I think the same could be said with this, they are obviously doing something right if they can estimate as much as they have.

Um, okay, so if god created the universe from one, "Singularity" than what's so absurd about god creating life from one "Singularity"?

What happened was we were talking about how evolution should be in science classrooms because it's a part of science, and him and another guy started calling it a belief(which means it shouldn't be in science classrooms, or that creationism should also be in a class room) so we started comparing the two "Beliefs". So far we've inserted evidence of evolution on many levels, and they have inserted no evidence that God is the creator of the world(not that evolution says God didn't create the world). For some reason, to me, evidence implies that it is less of a belief, especially since evidence implies that it's proveable.
Preechr then challenged me to a duel.


There was something he said about how the pursuit of scientific truth is skewed by the governments search for power. Maybe that's how he thinks it's sociological?
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Old May 5th, 2006, 06:18 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggytrix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supafly345
I am so suave. Watch me tell off these nerds.
Supafly, stick to drawing pretty pictures, OK? If anyone on this board has a habit of posting like they think they kick so much ass, you certainly aren't one to be calling them on it.
Yes, that's exactly why I chose this of all threads to post my views on "eat THIS" debates.
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Old May 5th, 2006, 06:54 PM       
I don't think this is a kick who's ass thing. Now that we are finding what he actually wants we are getting somewhere.

Is there no communication on this forum? Have we deteriorated to the level of dumb beasts?
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Old May 5th, 2006, 07:41 PM       
Alright... It's 5 May and Friday, so I'm gonna give this a two beer long effort at explanation. Kahljorn, please excuse me if I don't answer all of your many questions just yet. In an effort to satisfy Supa and keep more than just you and me in this discussion, unlike the last time and every other "debate" we've held, I'm going to try to sum up how we got here and clear up what misconceptions you and these other guys have about my point of view on this.

*cracks first beer*

Please note, before I get started, that going back and reading through that earlier thread to make sure what exactly we did and did not argue would take at least another beer or two, so I'm gonna wing it on memory...

When a previous evolution thread started, I began to follow it for a page or two, noting that the difference between evolution within a species and common descent completely ignored. The thread involved those that support ID being taught in school systems next to "Darwinism," an expression which I tend to equate with common descent, not evolution in general.

Since then, it's been assumed I am a disciple of the ID movement, a Christian luddite that believes the world is only 100 or so years old, a troll and a person that believes all scientists are Godless athiests that are going to Hell just as soon as lightning picks them off. I have also screwed up, wading into unfamiliar waters as I am, when I confused genus and species (and rather than figure out the difference as it relates to my thoughts I've just learned to use the term "common descent") and when I misread ziggy's post to mean the big bang happened 4.5 billion years ago since that's when he said life began rather than when the universe got started up... Well, I'm very sure I've screwed up way more than that, but I never intended to make more than that first point, which brings me to my biggest mistake in this whole mess: trying to argue point for point with kahljorn.

No offense intended, kahl. You are as aggravating as you are bright. I take full responsibility for letting our discussions get so far off track, though you were wrong about the definition of "ignorant." It simply means you do not know something. We all qualify.

Anyhoo... *cracks second beer*

Ziggy, I will definitely move on later to try my best to explain how common descent need not be the only theory. To do so, I will need to do the discussion justice and have reference material at hand, as other than the occasional book or article, it has been a while since I've been in school and the names of periods and my terminology is no longer accessible by memory alone. Ok? It's supposed to rain all day Sunday. I'll try to tackle it then.

Pjalne, it is personal to a point, and though I really respect your respect for that I have no problem at all responding to goat's questions on the sociological effects and or causes of common descent... mostly because I find it fascinating.

Goat, to start out I would ask you to think up a few historical points at which science flopped common belief systems upon their heads... a few examples:

The world is actually round.

The Sun is the center of our solar system.

Matter is just another form of energy.

...stuff like that.

Almost always, these revelations are met with tremendous criticism. Tradition is not easily cast aside, generally. However, we live in the beginnings of an age of contrast to all the history of what's happened before, at least among the general population. We are more educated and "modern." Thanks to medical technology, we live longer lives in general, so on the whole we are more mature. Educated people are much more likely to be skeptical of tradition, just as mature thinkers are much more likely to allow new ideas to influence their thoughts.

Economics and politics are both scientific disciplines, though admittedly bastard cousins of physics, chemistry and biology. The softer "Social Sciences" in our modern era have been easily corrupted by guys like Marx (I appreciate you using that example) to such effect that socialist economics and politics still thrive today. As I said before, governments and science have always had an uncomfortable marriage, as successful politicians long ago realized the importance of scientific funding just as scientists accepted that their experiments didn't exactly fit into a successful business plan, generally and historically speaking.

At the risk of starting yet another shitstorm, I would offer "global warming" as an example of the corruption of real science by politics. Rather than allowing a tangent to usurp the thread, I will restrict my example to the political reaction to the data collected: the Kyoto protocol, which was a bunch of crap. Hell, let's add in CARB, too...

I am offering evidence to the idea that science CAN in fact be proven to have been corrupted in the past for political reasons. Politics is the art of aquiring power from people, and the easiest way to do so is feeding a need the people have.

I have, by the way, just finished that second beer.

So, I will now try to end this installation in an effort to get to the business of lighting charcoal...

One of the most powerful needs people have is that of self-destruction. We love to do the things that are worst for us. That is the human condition. I do not have time at this point to expound further on why I believe common descent to fall into this catagory, but I hope that you can extrapolate where I'm going.

Please remember, I am coming at this from a point of view that our prescence here is intentional rather than random chance and thus meaningless. I understand fully that common descent only explains HOW and the WHY could still be intentional, but I still feel that the concept allows way to many inroads to immorality. Hopefully, these two beers of insight have helped just a little to that end and enticed to wait for a bit more while I indulge myself in the spirit of the holiday.

Vamos tomah, Amigos!
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How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old May 5th, 2006, 08:11 PM       
Still sounds to me like you're arguing from an emotional distate to common descent rather than any sort of logical one. The fact that you bring morality into it is especially telling.

I do anxiously await your presentaition of an alternative to common descent that would hold up to scientific inquiry if it weren't for this vast socio-political conspiracy to which you've alluded.
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Old May 5th, 2006, 08:12 PM       
"I take full responsibility for letting our discussions get so far off track, though you were wrong about the definition of "ignorant." It simply means you do not know something. We all qualify. "

I don't remember where I said ignorant but I will say the following. Ignorant is an adjective, adjectives are used to describe relation or modify a noun. So if I said you are ignorant of evolution, it would mean you don't know anything about evolution.

"I am offering evidence to the idea that science CAN in fact be proven to have been corrupted in the past for political reasons."

Granted. I'm not sure in what sense you mean that, so please explain further. How is evolution being corrupted for political reasons? Are they politically lying to us about the fossils they probably have on display somewhere depicting the fish with a wrist and the whale with legs?

Politics will use anything to get ahead, that's why in our discussions of government I said I don't like the governments purpose being the aquisition of power.
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Old May 5th, 2006, 08:15 PM       
I don't mean to rain on anybody's conspiracy parade, but the guy behind all of them is the one that believes Jesus created everything on earth with a magic wand.
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Old May 5th, 2006, 10:32 PM       
I do not.
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Old May 6th, 2006, 12:02 AM       
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Old May 6th, 2006, 12:13 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
Politics will use anything to get ahead, that's why in our discussions of government I said I don't like the governments purpose being the aquisition of power.
Yet you disagreed with me that the goal of any governmental effort is the gain of power, that any effort of many men over one or any man over another is an exertion based in transition of power. How do you still fail to see that government is our gun to our head?
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old May 6th, 2006, 01:12 AM       
"How do you still fail to see that government is our gun to our head?"

I do see that, and that's exactly why I don't support philosophies that want to put more bullets in the gun.

"Yet you disagreed with me that the goal of any governmental effort is the gain of power, that any effort of many men over one or any man over another is an exertion based in transition of power."

I didn't disagree that that was the current goal of government (hence why I kept calling it "Present"), I disagreed that any idealized form of government shouldn't be interested in the aquisition of power. There may be some inate power there, but the primary purpose should be delegation of power, not outright aquisition and collection of it through any corrupt means.
When you do that, you get corrupt science, religion, economics and whatever else.
If you were just saying that the government is corrupt than I just misunderstood you the whole time and I agree with you. I just had this idea in mind that you were discussing your personal feelings of how government should be ran, especially when you started talking about how business and government should be seperate entities, because our current government is nothing like that at all.

Basically what I was saying is that the strive for power/money is the leading cause of corruption.
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Old May 6th, 2006, 09:53 AM       
Ok... I think I'm following you.

What I am doing is describing the nature of government and politics, just as the nature of fire is inherently destructive. Fire seeks oxygen. Government seeks power. Trees produce oxygen just as individual people are the source of power in politics. If trees could control fire, I'm sure they'd find it in their best interest to do so.

Government is a very powerful though extremely valuable tool. Just as any tool, we need to understand it's nature fully in order to be able to use it safely. Government is the one entity where a civilized society invests the ability to punish or even kill a fellow citizen. Government is our mechanism for removing the rights of one of us, sometimes even the right to live. We use it as a tool to maintain our civilized state.

In our American form of government, this is all that the executive and legislative branches do. The executive branch fufills the law, actually stripping power from it's citizens, and the legislature decide when doing so is Ok. The third branch, the courts, is the arbitrator. Even it does not delegate power. It is charged with deciding when an existing or previous arrangement involving one or more of the branches or citizens is not fair according to our system of law, based in the Constitution. If anything, the courts redistribute power.

The acquisition of power is not necessarily corrupt. In order to "delegate" it, you first must have aquired it from somewhere, right?

Let's say you run a manufacturing company. The product you design, build and sell is very useful, but also very dangerous. Imagine a wood chipper. You know you can't very well restrict your sales to only those that are smart and careful enough to never fall in or otherwise hurt, maim or kill themselves or someone else with it, but what you CAN do is construct your machine in such a way as to make it as safe to use as possible without restricting it's intended function.

That's how the American system of government was constructed. We had hoped to avoid corrupt useage of government by assigning as many people possible (all of us) to the task of making sure government is only ever safely used for all our benefit. When we arrest a criminal, that is done for the benefit of the criminal as well as the rest of us, even if he doesn't agree. It is better for our society to arrest criminals, and the criminal is a part of society.

When the legislative branch passes a law, it is Ok'ing the taking of power from at least one person with the understanding that doing so is for the benefit of society. A measure that allocates tax money for the purpose of building a bridge in Alaska involves money taken in taxes from all of us, so we have all effectively lost the power to do with that money whatever we might have done, right? The legislature passes a law criminalizing rape, and we all lose the power to legally rape somebody. The Amber Alert strips from us the power to listen to whatever we want on the radio, albeit for just a minute or two and for a purpose most of us support.

We The People, the intended watchdogs of government, have fallen down on the job. Just as ancient kingdoms were corrupted when the absolute power of the king was influenced by those with power and or money, resulting in the unfair abrogation of rights within the peasantry, we have allowed mob rule to creep into our system of government disguised as "Democracy."

Corruption happens in many ways. A large enough group of people with a lot of time on their hands has an equivalent influential power over government as one Jack Abramoff has with a pocketful of cash. Either of these corruptive forces can manipulate our government in order to unfairly strip rights and power from another group of people. The courts were meant to stop mob rule in that regard. The "mob" is a representation of those with more time/money taking advantage of government's unique ability in order to abridge the rights of even one individual with less time/money to defend her rights. It was the job of "We The People" to protect the courts from the corrupting influence of being over-lawyered, and we failed.

It was also the duty of "We The People" to protect the legislative function from the corruptive influence of those that would seek to take the right of someone to spend his time/money as she sees fit, but we all became that influence in some regard... as well of it's victims. Max supports government that strips the rights everyone to accumulate more than just the bare necessities of life. Kevin supports a more focused government that only strips part of the power to spend one's money away from those with the most of it, in order for it to be given to those that cannot or will not provide for themselves. Conservative Christians would use the government to remove the rights of others to do as they choose with their time. A pregnant woman might wish to make her life easier (improve her remaining future time) by aborting her baby, for instance, but the Christian bloc says no, for the betterment of society at large.

Finally, "We The People" were meant to protect the executive branch from the corruptive influence of sadists. This branch is the gun of government. The President heads the portion of our government assigned to hurt and kill people in order to protect our society. When you follow our laws, you do so with the president's gun to your head. Mostly, we are so comfortable with that that we hardly ever even notice, much like a religious person is happy to live a life based in fear of the threat of fire and brimstone.

The reward we should seek for a properly maintained government is a life with as much individual power as possible, yet "We The People" have become our government's corruptive force, choosing instead a life as oppressed and threatened as possible. We have put ourselves in jail, happy that everyone else is in here with us. Kevin got his wish along with the rest of the mob, and the rich are taxed moreso than the rest of us, but the rich bastards in the Tobacco Lobby used the influence of their distilled time: their money, to get laws passed to unfairly restrict Kevin from smoking pot. We are not all equally free. The glass is more than half empty. We are equally miserable and repressed.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old May 6th, 2006, 04:05 PM       
Quote:
"the nature of fire is inherently destructive"
Personally I consider the attributions of fire to be expansive, heat, dry, s ustanance etc. That's mostly from a philosophical angle, though. Water is sometimes considered destructive, but I think that has less to do with actual water and more to do with dialectics.
Don't forget, without fire the trees wouldn't even be alive in the first place. There'd be no life on earth.

Quote:
"In order to "delegate" it, you first must have aquired it from somewhere, right? "
Yes, but there's still a difference between aquiring power and delegating power. The Government can still aquire power, even if it's purpose is to delegate it. The difference is that rather than accumulating power, it would be distributed in one form or another. Our system is actually sort of based on this idea. Like you said, there's more than once branch of Government, each with the supposed ability to put "Checks" on another or control some aspect of our country. Hence, delegation of power.
I personally believe the accumulation of power is the big problem. Not even the raw aquisition of it, just accumulation. Where one person, or one small group of people, can have more control over the government than anybody else, or any branch of government. That's pretty what's going on in our government now. If that power was properly distributed, there wouldn't be a problem like that.

Quote:
"A measure that allocates tax money for the purpose of building a bridge in Alaska involves money taken in taxes from all of us, so we have all effectively lost the power to do with that money whatever we might have done, right?"
Right, but that's an example of delegation of power. Redistribution of power, or "money". Hence my example that money is power, which I felt is a very good example for our government and nearly any other government. Power is represented by money.

Quote:
"The legislature passes a law criminalizing rape, and we all lose the power to legally rape somebody."
But does the legislative branch gain the power to rape somebody? Again, another example of delegation of power.

Quote:
"It was the job of "We The People" to protect the courts from the corrupting influence of being over-lawyered"
In the end you can say that about any government, but it's not really that simple. A corrupt government can do many things to control people, and in this age of psychologists and sociologists the maintanance of certain social consciousnesses are much easier to control. Not that I'm implying there's some conspiracy to control people's brains, but everything has an effect, and I think the people in 'Power' realize that.
Hence my quote in your signature. Obviously if america was more educated on the grand scale, and educated properly(to be able to think right, for example) then we'd have less of a chance of running into this type of problem.

I'm basically saying that the aquisition and, more specifically, accumulation of power has caused one body of government to accumulate more power(economically, socially, politically etc.) than they should necessarily have, even by the inherent rules of our government. If one group of people has more power than they were meant to have, the entire functioning of the government ceases because that one piece becomes THE essential government. However, if that power were properly delegated than there would be no problems.
The Governments nature being ascribed by Delegation is not only exemplary of process but also of it's inherent bodily functions that maintains it's actual healthy existance. It's exactly like the human body, everything needs to be distributed to the right place otherwise the body dies, or becomes diseased. "Delegation" is intrinsically appropriate.

Like you said Government should restrict bad human nature and I agree with that. Government in and of itself doesn't really create any problems, unless you consider the position of being in 'Power' corruptive of human nature itself.

P.S. What did you think of those transitional fossils fossils?
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Old May 6th, 2006, 05:24 PM       
preechr, plese cut the pathetic fallacies

fire doesn't seek out oxygen. fire is a combustive chemical reaction between oxygen and a fuel.

likewise government and poplitics have no wills of their own. government and politics are actions taken by people. people may have egos, but the concept of government does not. your claims to the contrary seem extremely irrational.

and what exactly does ANY of this have to do with evolution or science?
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Old May 6th, 2006, 05:28 PM       
I think this ties into the sociological thing about science. Either that or we are just rehashing an old argument.
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Old May 6th, 2006, 10:38 PM       
I'm mostly just rambling. It doesn't take much to distract me from discussing evolution.

...and fire does so have a soul!
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How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old May 7th, 2006, 05:08 AM       
I like to see the sun(son) one of the greatest examples of fire, as such I think the sun has a "Soul". IN fact, I think the sun is an epitemy of the soul, especially if you consider universal bodies as myriad embodiments of celestial evolution beyond intelligent, spirit/soul containing life.
Human-kinds greatest endeavor would be to become it's own universe, capable of producing life, but that's looking a little too far into the future, I suppose!

There's some psuedo-scientificcally derived ideas that could actually support that idea, but mostly it's just spiritual cyclical momentum casting the universe into further replication of itself for whatever reason. I don't really understand the universes purpose, maybe it thinks it can evolve into something better? In the end, though, what more can God become? I think god is sort of like a cancer, obsessed with his own impotence, frustrated with his divinity.

(maybe don't even read this?)Only the material essence of a god, though. Not the "true god" per se. You know, the gnostically supreme god, nothingness, bliss... Epitemy of the universe, primordial state. What thefuck ever. It doesn't care, or does it, what made it decide to create life/universe? I guess that's just it's(zero) one's nature to become two, and continue to triad-which is the begining of the universe, nothing exists before three AM I RIGHT ZERO ONE AND TWO YOU BITCHES???. I can't really contribute more on that topic yet, I don't know enough about it.

I seriously don't understand God's purpose. What more can he become, what more can he create, what will creating human beings who evolve to another state do? Absolutely fucking nothing. Every form of spirituality comes to a dead end, which brings in anti-gnostic questions of, "Why the fall, why earth, why life, why spirit, why anything"?
Then you start to think that oblivion would be true bliss, which is exactly the fucking idea of every form of spirituality known to man. Nirvana, "Bliss", union with god. All examples of oblivion. Bliss itself is absence of body, mind and intelligence, and exactly the word hindus use to explain chaos or 'nothingness', the primordial state of existence.
Fuck that just brings up the entire idea of "Ignorance is bliss" and how it is appropriate in describing the wonder of suffering, ie Earth.

I'm kind of faded, so excuse the tirade. If somebody responds to this I'll be happy for years.
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Old May 7th, 2006, 03:13 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
I like to see the sun(son) one of the greatest examples of fire, as such I think the sun has a "Soul". IN fact, I think the sun is an epitemy of the soul, especially if you consider universal bodies as myriad embodiments of celestial evolution beyond intelligent, spirit/soul containing life.

The sun is a mass of incandescent gas
A gigantic nuclear furnace
where hydrogen is built into helium
at a temperature of millions of degrees

The Sun is hot
The Sun is not
a place where we could live
but here on earth there'd be no life without the light it gives

We need it's light
We need it's heat
We need it's energy

Without the sun
Without a doubt
There'd be no you and me

The sun is a mass of incandescent gas
A gigantic nuclear furnace
where hydrogen is built into helium
at a temperature of millions of degrees

The sun is hot

It is so hot that everything on it is a gas
Iron
Copper
Aluminum
and many others

The sun is large

If the sun were hollow a million earths could fit inside
and yet the sun is only a middle-sized star

The sun is far away

About 93 million miles away!
and that's why it looks so small

And even when it's out of sight
the sun shines night and day

The sun gives heat
The sun gives light
The sunlight that we see
The sunlight comes from our own sun's atomic energy

Scientists have found that the sun is a huge atom-smashing machine
The heat and light of the sun come from the nuclear reactions of
Hydrogen
Carbon
Nitrogen
and Helium

The sun is a mass of incandescent gas
A gigantic nuclear furnace
where hydrogen is built into helium
at a temperature of millions of degrees
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