Israel enters Lebanon

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

Also, at one point in the article, the guy asks why we should believe Israeli pics over those presented from Hezbollah, or Lebanese sources. Good question.

It's a rhetorical question. Why should we believe any picture provided by any side in a conflict has any purpose other than as propaganda for their side? Manipulated, staged, or just pointing the camera a few degrees to the right, and you can present the situation with your own bias.

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

Is it sooo unthinkable that the same type of people who could do the above might also falsify a bombed location, or doctor a photo...?

I can't help but get the feeling you are just repeating some argument you had with someone else, because I never implied anything of the sort.

The things that are too hard to believe are that this particular photographer doctored the photo so poorly, that whoever did it thought it wouldn't be noticed, or that everyone with internet access and their fucking dog thinks they know EXACTLY what happened 6000 miles across the surface of the planet, when they don't know shit beyond the spin of their favorite news PRODUCT.

[Preechr]

What we DO know, and this is what you seem to want to avoid addressing, is that Hezbollah fighters are using civilian casualties to their advantage. Is it that great of a logical leap to wonder if they might also be actively causing civilian casualties? You seem to want to wrap this all up in "It's all just propaganda," yet your objection to the war stems from the fact that innocent people are dying.

If the only reason that innocent people are dying is that Israel is dropping bombs and shooting their guns, then of course Israel should stop doing that! Is that the only reason, though? I seem to remember that the root cause of the entire conflict is the very existence of Israel, itself... and I'm pretty sure that Israel isn't the one against that.

The other, more important, reason that people are dying is that certain non-Israeli people with crappier military means are willing to do whatever it takes to KILL Israel. Push them and their country into the sea. Wipe it off the map. Exterminate them. Rid us of them. These words sound familiar to you?

I don't particularly like Alabama. I don't have a problem with Alabama having a state of it's own, but I'm kinda tired of it being located right next door to my state. I'm pretty sure Florida, Tennesse and Mississippi feel the same way, too. If we took a vote here in the South, I believe the majority of people would agree that Alabama, the Trailer Park State, should probably be moved somewhere else in hopes that Yankees will have about 18 million less reasons to think everyone south of the Mason-Dixon is basically just another Alabaman.

Do my feelings on that issue give me the right to join a militia founded upon the express goal of blowing shit up until that happens? I understand that this is a poor analogy in that Alabama is the crappiest state in the South, where Israel is the opposite in it's region, but the question is whether or not people have the right to exterminate one another for ANY reason.

Israel agreed to the cease-fire because Israel has a problem with the loss of innocent life for any reason, even it's fight for it's own existence... even when that loss of innocent life could very well be engineered by it's enemies. Don't forget that Hezbollah kills those Lebanese that oppose it's imposition upon Lebanon. Please keep in mind that there is UNDOUBTEDLY score settling involved when some of these intentional collateral casualties are selected for martyrdom for propaganda's sake.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Ziggy, you continue to be a puzzlement.

I was responding directly to the two articles that you quoted! You say you never implied anything, yet you post two articles that make that point, and essentially challenge everyone to read it. But you're not claiming anything?

It's a rhetorical question. Why should we believe any picture provided by any side in a conflict has any purpose other than as propaganda for their side? Manipulated, staged, or just pointing the camera a few degrees to the right, and you can present the situation with your own bias.

Think about that one, Ziggy. I'll address how ironic this reutergate thing is in a sec, but think about Israel's position. They have air drones that monitor all of their bombings, the take numerous precautions prior to bombings, and even ask people to pretty please leave the place they intend to bomb. Israel exists under a microscope, so how much propaganda do you think they could really get away with?

everyone with internet access and their fucking dog thinks they know EXACTLY what happened 6000 miles across the surface of the planet, when they don't know shit beyond the spin of their favorite news PRODUCT.

Do I need to be in Qana to detect a photoshopped picture? Should average citizens sit back and just digest everything the mainstream media feeds them? I mean it's "sensational, not liberal, media" right?

Isn't it "about getting viewers, period. viewers = advertizing dollars. sensation sells"?

I mean it's like you "don't understand the most basic concepts of capitalism."

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

It's a rhetorical question. Why should we believe any picture provided by any side in a conflict has any purpose other than as propaganda for their side? Manipulated, staged, or just pointing the camera a few degrees to the right, and you can present the situation with your own bias.

Was that a slip?

They're not supposed to represent any sides of a conflict.
These photos were issued by a worldwide news agency. Reuters is supposed to be impartial, not a counter response to show a varied viewpoint. It's not excusable as counter propaganda.

You found two editorials that told you what you wanted to hear - but the photographer, and the faux rescue worker have both admitted to purposely exploiting the corpses. There is video which proves it conclusively. There is also video of the rescue worker interviewed at his own home promtly after the Qana incident, and there are Nasrallah photos on his shelves. Finally, the photographer in question admits to using photoshop to edit the image. How can you even defend that? Why aren't you angry that you're being manipulated by poor ethics? If you're saying Israel does this too, then get a fucking blog, do your own investigation, and prove it - because that's just what people had to do to prove that Reuters, and the AP are carelessly releasing propaganda to libel Israel with. Yet Ziggy's not impressed. He thinks your typical Israeli and your typical Hezbollah supporter are on an equal level. Facism and ethics mean nothing in his world. I'll tell you one thing - you will NEVER see the body of a young Jewish girl paraded by Magen David or Zakka rescue workers - EVER.

What may be lost on you is if they're manipulating photos, think what they might be doing to the news reports themselves? So yes, there is a huge amount of scrutiny being paid towards various "expert sources" and the body of work by certain photographers - and what people are finding is pretty damning.



Oh look, the holy Koran just appeared dangling from the wreckage...damn Zionists! ULULULULULULUH!!!



Credit these photos to one of the Qana stylists working right alongside Hajj. I've said it again and again - when you're really oppressed, and really suffering you don't have to make shit up. You don't have to play it up. When reporters talk about entire cities reduced to rubble, they're not standing in front of a vibrant bustling magic kingdom.

When are you going to run out of rationalizations?

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Hey here's a slightly on yopic story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4795709.stm

Iran is having a special museum dedicated to cartoons making fun of Jews and the Holocaust.

Jews ought send armed gunmen to kidnap people and riot and rise for terror against the west, oh wait that's palestinians and mohammed. Double standards are fun.

This goes on my list of reason's the Iranian president is an A-hole. it's a long list.

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by Preechr

You seem to want to wrap this all up in "It's all just propaganda," yet your objection to the war stems from the fact that innocent people are dying.

Incorrect. Innocent people die every day. They die when terrorist organizations are allowed to fester and grow in their ideal environments.

My objection stems not from this temporary acceleration of innocent casualties, but rather from a strong concern that this death and destruction alone will not solve the problem. There are underlying problems here that if ignored will simply result in reentrenchment of Hezbollah or a similar organization when southern Lebanon is rebuilt.

Originally Posted by kevin

You say you never implied anything, yet you post two articles that make that point

the point being:

Originally Posted by kevin

Also, at one point in the article, the guy asks why we should believe Israeli pics over those presented from Hezbollah, or Lebanese sources.

Now I've reread those articles I posted twice, and I don't see where Kevin's getting this "point" from, so I probably should have just ignored it.

Originally Posted by abcd

Was that a slip?

They're not supposed to represent any sides of a conflict.

No it was a response to a rhetorical question Kevin fabricated out of his bizzare interpretation of the articles I posted, which I assumed was actually a question from some article to which he posted a link.

Reuters is supposed to be impartial, but a freelance photographer can can be Lebanese, Israeli, private citizen, or government worker, and the viewer will not be presented with this information, even though it might be very relevant.

Originally Posted by ABCD

Finally, the photographer in question admits to using photoshop to edit the image. How can you even defend that?

The photographer only admitted, as far as I know, to retouching dust and scratched out of the image. If you knew anything about the industry, you would know that artifacts are introduced to an image from dust on the lenses, on the film, or on the scanner, and there is NOTHING unethical about cleaning this up in post-production. The difference between what we call "dustbusting" and "retouching" is very significant.

Originally Posted by aBCD

Yet Ziggy's not impressed. He thinks your typical Israeli and your typical Hezbollah supporter are on an equal level.

back that assertion up with some quotes or shut the fuck up. i'm getting a little sick of you fucks redefining my arguments every time i post here.

i'm NOT anti-israel. i'm NOT pro-terrorist. i'm NOT pro-reuters.

you fucks can't get it through your thick heads that I have complaints against all the players in this bullshit. but my biggest complaint lies with the stupid shits on the internet who think they know the truth as though God Himself handed it to them on stone tablets.

Originally Posted by abc

get a fucking blog, do your own investigation, and prove it

lol

surely the combined wisdom of the blogosphere has discerned the full truth, if only i had time to read it all, i could be as smart as kevin and abc.

but enough of this. you are the good guys here, and good guys are immune to criticism. even when they're wrong, they're still not as wrong as the bad guys. it's about PERSPECTIVE.

so fuck it. i've already wasted way too much time attempting (and clearly failing) to communicate with you.

so you win. i'm done. peace.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Boohoo. Get yourself a tissue.

[Dole]

i'm NOT anti-israel. i'm NOT pro-terrorist. i'm NOT pro-reuters.

you fucks can't get it through your thick heads that I have complaints against all the players in this bullshit. but my biggest complaint lies with the stupid shits on the internet who think they know the truth as though God Himself handed it to them on stone tablets.

AMEN

[Abcdxxxx]

Right, it's the big bad internet bullies who stop you from voicing certain forms of empathy, or rational arguments because god forbid you might be construed as Pro-Israel, Anti-terrorist, Anti-Reuters. You aren't really voicing some middle of the road argument when you're bragging about your own expertise to explain why unethical journalism can be excused, you realize that right?

You don't have the ability to prove a single counter argument, but you're dying to disagree anyway. Spare us. While you think we're twisting your words, what is actually happening is, you're talking out of your ass and then acting all miffed when we respond to your college quad sloganeering the only way someone educated on the issues can possibly respond to a propaganda parrot like you. Of course you think we're drawing conclusions. How could the dots possibly connect for you?

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by Dole

AMEN

Dole wants to go to church?

Pick one single strand of this conflict you disagree with me on and we'll debate it. We'll source our arguments, and provide factual substantative rebutals. No non-sequitors, no cutting and pasting from internet hate sites, no conspiracy theories, and no references to secret cabals.

Can you handle handle that?

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

So, does anyone know when the prisoners will be released? With the war over Israel can release plenty of non terrorist combatents and Hezballah can FINALLY give back the kidnapped soldiers.

Oh and I want to say how thankful I am that Turkey is working with Israel to embargo shipments of weapons to Hezballah from Syria. Hezballah/syria tries to break the resolution and Turkey steps up and helps keep it complied, after israel asked yesterday, they grounded and searched Syrian planes for weapons shipments.

Thank God someone is trying to keep the resolution working.

Is anyone else thinking the fact that all the iranians, syrians. and hezballans claiming full victory in this could only encourage more shit down the road? Syria has said today that they would fight a hezballah style war with Israel over the Golan heights which has been Israeli property since the Yom Kippur war when the Syrians tried to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and failed miserably.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.boston.com/news/world/mid...ollah_remains/

As army deploys, Hezbollah remains
Lebanon tacitly accepts militia's presence in south
---

So, Lebanon has already disregarded the UN resolution. Apparently Israel is the only country who should get scrutiny for that.

[kahljorn]

I seriously don't understand how people can look at israel with scrutiny after this war, unless it's by some die-hard republican type who thinks they were too wishy-washy and nice ;/

They should've just killed those jerks! Ending wars like this is pointless, it makes all the people who died and all the infrastructure destroyed worthless. All we can really hope is that the UN will actually do something with the resolution.


Is israel helping rebuild lebanon's infrastucture? I was hoping that Iraq would become a trend. Occupation, even for things like "Rebuilding"(especially for things like that) is very useful for curbing resentment and resistance, all while presenting themselves as Diplomaticniceguys.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I was wondering the same thing. I know there was a meeting of nations to put money in, and Israel wasn't invited.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

Is israel helping rebuild lebanon's infrastucture? I was hoping that Iraq would become a trend. Occupation, even for things like "Rebuilding"(especially for things like that) is very useful for curbing resentment and resistance, all while presenting themselves as Diplomaticniceguys.

That's what I kept thinking when people were screaming about the airport taking a hit. Israel practically invented the "Diplomaticniceguys" routine. Lebanon will end up in better financial shape then ever by the time all the aid packages and rebuilding efforts get finished. Israel will probably even assist the Lebanese government in beefing up their military capablities so they're not so defenseless in the future. Plus new offices for Nasrallah's hoodlums.

[Abcdxxxx]

I guess human shields don't work cheap these days.

Hizbullah Pays Lebanese Families $150 Million

Hizbullah Pays Lebanese Families $150 Million 15:23 Aug 18, '06 / 24 Av 5766
(IsraelNN.com) The Hizbullah terrorist organization has further entrenched itself in Lebanon by paying several thousand families $12,000 each. Israel bombed several banks where Hizbullah keeps funds, and Hizbullah has not revealed the source of the money for the aid.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=110343

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Israel's numbers arent the same as the BBCs
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...005961,00.html
They say they have positivily identified 130 wanted terrorists kille din lebanon and 530 of the casualties were militant, which means about half of the casualties where human shields.


Israel is pissed at the UN. They have made the demand that of the peacekeeping troops being sent NONE of them should be allowed to come from countries who do not recognize Israel's right to exist and wish them destroyed. TAKE THAT MALAYSIA!

Lebanese President Emile Lahoud said that "Lebanon has not only defeated Israel, but also the plans for the state's partition."
Lahoud made the statement during a speech to the nation that was broadcast on Lebanese media channels.
Big words considering Lebanon NEVER FOUGHT THIS WAR! In comparison this is like Poland saying "we singlehandedly beat the allies, and stpped plans for a nazi third reich"

Prez Bush in one of his moves I approve of (it's been a while) says the violence is Hezballahs fault.

Hollywood stars come out in force to support Israel. If Sylvester Stalone thinks it's obvious it's gotta be pretty obvious.
http://story.irishsun.com/p.x/ct/9/i...1cd3571b4f088/


And on the other border the wife of the kidnapped fox news journalist in gaza is pleading for his release.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Good stuff, do you have a link for that EU info?

[Abcdxxxx]

The peacekeepers were set to arrive Sunday - There are already reports of missile deliveries getting bombed by the IAF while crossing the Lebanese - Syrian border, tonight. What a sham.

Originally Posted by Courage the Cowardly Dog

Israel is pissed at the UN. They have made the demand that of the peacekeeping troops being sent NONE of them should be allowed to come from countries who do not recognize Israel's right to exist and wish them destroyed. TAKE THAT MALAYSIA!

2/3's of the UN's entire activety since it's formation has been regarding Israel. I don't know what else they expected.

Maylasia was the location the Iranian president made his declaration that "The world would be in the hands of Islam over the next few years", and Malaysia is also the nation with a former PM who declared Jews control the world. You have to be a Muslim to become a Malaysian national, disqualifying the Kafirs, Seihks, and Hindu's. They sound like the PERFECT choice to keep peace against the Zioist entity.

Thank heavens we have the UN to advance this regional conflict into a World , and thank goodness the resolution to send 17,000 peacekeepers to Darfur is expected to be rejected. We wouldn't want to distract the world from the reals problem of our time: Zionist!

[kahljorn]

I think someone asked this earlier but:

WHY DO PEOpLE HATE JEWS?

Is it that time old fear of them moving to our country stealing all of our jobs and taking over our country or something stemming from that? Is it just because they killed Jesus?

PS how did this whole ISRAEL IS THE BAD GUY IN THE LEBANON WAR deal come about? Was that a media pathology?

[Abcdxxxx]

Historically, I think it stems from those who were threatened by dual nationalism, and an adherance to a code of law beyond whatever the ruling powers dictated. Being the oldest, or first brings the type of animosity you don't hear much of from say, the Kurds, or Druze. Christian and Islamic scriptures have some issues built into their text by nature of adopting the Torah attempting to be a continuation.

The rest comes from inferiority complexes and a jealousy for what Jews have accomplished. I lot of people don't like to hear that a minority group which makes up 0.25% of the world population, or less then 2.0% of the US population has been so accomplished and influential. That pisses people off. I'm sure people reading that right now are irked and want me to shut the fuck up just for mentioning it.

The thing about asking why is, it doesn't really matter why. Asking why makes it sound like there's a reason. Really irrational bigotry doesn't have any reasoning.

[Preechr]

Nono... you explained it pretty well. I'm sure a lot of people better understand why they should hate you now.

...and knowledge is power!

[Preechr]

I had a guy try to explain it to me once by pulling a bunch of cans and bottles out my cabinets and fridge, showing me all the "secret" symbols on most of them that prove Jews run the world.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

Good stuff, do you have a link for that EU info?

curses, i misrepresented. I was reading an article about the EU investigation and this article and got them mixed up.

http://ussneverdock.blogspot.com/200...errorists.html

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...005961,00.html

I withdraw my statement, I'm not Reuters. This number came from Israel so it is be biased.

I am very embarrassed about this, i haven't posted at news websites in years and i forgot to always post a link and double check all sources. I read this at work int he morning and posted later at home and got mixed up.

I'm very sorry, it won't happen again.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

uh, that's ok.

This is swell:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGK9KLVH41.DTL

Hezbollah night-vision gear was from Britain, Israel says
It's believed to be an export to Iran in drug-fighting effort

- Matthew Kalman, Chronicle Foreign Service
Sunday, August 20, 2006

(08-20) 04:00 PDT Kiryat Shemona, Israel -- Israeli intelligence officials have complained to Britain and the United States that sensitive night-vision equipment recovered from Hezbollah fighters during the war in Lebanon had been exported by Britain to Iran. British officials said the equipment had been intended for use in a U.N. anti-narcotics campaign.

Israeli officials say they believe the state-of-the-art equipment, found in Hezbollah command-and-control headquarters in southern Lebanon during the just-concluded war, was part of a British government-approved shipment of 250 pieces of night-vision equipment sent to Iran in 2003.

Israeli military intelligence confirmed that one of the pieces of equipment is a Thermo-vision 1000 LR tactical night-vision system, serial No. 155010, part No. 193960, manufactured by Agema, a high-tech equipment company with branches in Bedfordshire, England, and San Diego. A spokesman for Agema in San Diego denied all knowledge of the system.

The equipment, which needed special export-license approval from the British government, was passed to the Iranians through a program run and administered by the U.N. Drug Control Program. The equipment uses infrared imaging to provide nighttime surveillance that allows the user to detect people and vehicles moving in the dark at a range of several miles.

I just don't understand why the UN insists on being a rubber stamp for terrorists. Certainly the British and italians are at fault here as well, but how does the UN "sponsor" this program? Is there any monitoring, or inventory done on equipment shipped to friggin Iran?