Holocaust denier jailed for three years

[Dole]

All you ever do is write pathetic little insults at anybody you don't agree with, but you really say nothing at all.

Its..its like you've known me all my life!

Okey doke, here a few choice little tidbits about Irving to start with:

This poem he wrote for his daughter came to light in the libel court case he fought unsuccessfully againt a journalist who accused him of holocaust denial:

"in a 1994 diary entry, Irving wrote about a ditty he composed for his young daughter "when halfbreed children are wheeled past":

I am a Baby Aryan
Not Jewish or Sectarian
I have no plans to marry an
Ape or Rastafarian."


This quote from Irving is from an interview with the Guardian:

"The Jewish élite in America is filling the same positions they held in the Weimar republic during the 1920s and 1930s - controlling the big banks, the film business, media, and the like. The Jews disproportionately held all these big positions in Germany. It's a mirror image in the US. And it will evoke howls of rage from the ordinary citizens who are kept out of the power élite.'


Another part of the same interview:
"And he does not back away from some of the extreme statements and acts attributed to him, although he often tries to deflect their importance by casting it as prankish humour. Yes, there were swizzle sticks adorned with little swastikas at his 1991 book party, but 'those were really nothing more than copies of Hitler's personal standard that my publisher had made up for the launch of my book.' (The late Alan Clark was according to Irving, 'a great admirer of Hitler. He sat in that very chair that you are in right before my party started and told me in depth about his admiration for Hitler.') "


More from that libel case:

Prominent British historian Sir John Keegan wrote in 1996 in his book The Battle for History, "Some controversies are entirely bogus, like David Irving's contention that Hitler's subordinates kept from him the facts of the Final Solution, the extermination of the Jews…" During the libel trial, Keegan - who had been subpoenaed by Irving to appear as a witness - lambasted Irving by saying: "I continue to think it perverse of you to propose that Hitler could not have known until as late as October 1943 what was going on with the Jewish people" and, when asked if it was perverse to say that Hitler did not know about the Final Solution, answered "that it defies common sense".

There is plenty more where this came from if you want it....the guy is just an out-and-out Hitler-loving racist, who has always attempted to rationalise his paranoiac hatred and prejudice under the veneer of respectable historical research. And only with the threat of prison, after 40 years of spouting this crap does he say 'Oh hang on...turns out I was wrong all along!". Fuck him.

[Abcdxxxx]

Keep in mind it took over 20 years for this guy to be convicted. You have to really be working at. When Holocaust denial becomes your life, then the Government there starts to take a self-interest in proving they're never gonna let that happen again. It's not a free speech issue, it's a hyper sensitive country trying to save face in the eyes of a world community that rides their ass anytime anything vaguely sympathetic comes about.

[Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Dole

Its..its like you've known me all my life!

Okey doke, here a few choice little tidbits about Irving to start with:

This poem he wrote for his daughter came to light in the libel court case he fought unsuccessfully againt a journalist who accused him of holocaust denial:

"in a 1994 diary entry, Irving wrote about a ditty he composed for his young daughter "when halfbreed children are wheeled past":

I am a Baby Aryan
Not Jewish or Sectarian
I have no plans to marry an
Ape or Rastafarian."


This quote from Irving is from an interview with the Guardian:

"The Jewish élite in America is filling the same positions they held in the Weimar republic during the 1920s and 1930s - controlling the big banks, the film business, media, and the like. The Jews disproportionately held all these big positions in Germany. It's a mirror image in the US. And it will evoke howls of rage from the ordinary citizens who are kept out of the power élite.'


Another part of the same interview:
"And he does not back away from some of the extreme statements and acts attributed to him, although he often tries to deflect their importance by casting it as prankish humour. Yes, there were swizzle sticks adorned with little swastikas at his 1991 book party, but 'those were really nothing more than copies of Hitler's personal standard that my publisher had made up for the launch of my book.' (The late Alan Clark was according to Irving, 'a great admirer of Hitler. He sat in that very chair that you are in right before my party started and told me in depth about his admiration for Hitler.') "


More from that libel case:

Prominent British historian Sir John Keegan wrote in 1996 in his book The Battle for History, "Some controversies are entirely bogus, like David Irving's contention that Hitler's subordinates kept from him the facts of the Final Solution, the extermination of the Jews…" During the libel trial, Keegan - who had been subpoenaed by Irving to appear as a witness - lambasted Irving by saying: "I continue to think it perverse of you to propose that Hitler could not have known until as late as October 1943 what was going on with the Jewish people" and, when asked if it was perverse to say that Hitler did not know about the Final Solution, answered "that it defies common sense".

There is plenty more where this came from if you want it....the guy is just an out-and-out Hitler-loving racist, who has always attempted to rationalise his paranoiac hatred and prejudice under the veneer of respectable historical research. And only with the threat of prison, after 40 years of spouting this crap does he say 'Oh hang on...turns out I was wrong all along!". Fuck him.

I agree he doesn't believe Hitler ordered the systematic extermination of the Jews in gas chambers. But he isn't denying the Holocaust happened at all. You haven't shown anything to prove he's a Holocaust denier and that's specifically what he was jailed for.

And by the way, Dole, I expect you're also pleased that London Mayor, 'Red' Ken Livingstone has been given a four-week suspension and £80,000 costs for his anti-Jewish Nazi outburst. Well I am anyway. It's very satisfying to see a self-righteous leftie getting a taste of his own medicine.

[Abcdxxxx]

Wait, huh?

He was found guilty. I thought you were just questioning his right to free speach. Now you're claiming his innocence?

[Pharaoh]

I know he was found guilty and that he even pleaded guilty. So, yes, he was guilty of Holocaust denial, but I'm puzzled as to what exactly Holocaust denial entails, because I haven't read that he denies large numbers of Jews were killed by the Nazis, he just argues over the details. It seems a historian doesn't even have to completely deny Nazis killed Jews to be found guilty and jailed.

[sadie]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Keep in mind it took over 20 years for this guy to be convicted. You have to really be working at. When Holocaust denial becomes your life, then the Government there starts to take a self-interest in proving they're never gonna let that happen again. It's not a free speech issue, it's a hyper sensitive country trying to save face in the eyes of a world community that rides their ass anytime anything vaguely sympathetic comes about.

regardless of the country's motivations, and though it may not be solely a free-speech issue, it most certainly is a free-speech issue.

[Abcdxxxx]

When you disseminate materials for purposes beyond inquiry, intentionally for the purposes of subverting facts, it becomes a tool of aggression. You have to understand the roll of propaganda, and revitionism specific to the Holocaust to understand why these laws are addressing issues beyond free speech. Of course on a very simplistic naive level, there is a free speech aspect to this which is a no brainer...but it's far more complex then that.

You can't understand what crosses the line, unless you understand the history well enough to know the implications of what you're writing.

Look at what happened in Rwanda, for example, where language was key to inciting the violence on a level which will take generations for them to really heal from. Can you understand how there will be certain ways of discussing Hutus and Tutsis that will be off limits, because of the connotations it has?

[sadie]

you make it very difficult to discourse, abcd, with your condescending tone. perhaps that's the purpose of it.

you say these laws are addressing issues beyond free speech; i say that reeks of propaganda in itself.

i think open discussion and open minds are the only ways out of the cycles of the past. and a crackdown on open expression breeds subversive activity.

[Abcdxxxx]

Yeah I'd agree with that as an idealism. Free speech should be an absolute. On the other hand, if someone starts abusing that right, and we know people died the last time someone said certain things in a specific manner, then ...well what's that yelling fire in a movie theater cliche? This guys wasn't engaging in open discussion.

These laws are meant to crack down on something entirely different, and I keep trying to explain why and how this goes out of the realm of free speech. Anyway, call me crazy, but I'd much rather this stuff stay subversive then sit on the best sellers list in France.

[Dole]

And by the way, Dole, I expect you're also pleased that London Mayor, 'Red' Ken Livingstone has been given a four-week suspension and £80,000 costs for his anti-Jewish Nazi outburst. Well I am anyway. It's very satisfying to see a self-righteous leftie getting a taste of his own medicine.

I couldnt give a shit what happens to ken livingston. I have no more respect for him than any other politician. That said, I dont blame him for calling someone from the Daily Mail a nazi, jewish or not.

[Pharaoh]

You couldnt give a shit for free speech then, Dole. You say you don't blame him for calling someone from the Daily Mail a Nazi, but then you don't care if he gets suspended for it. So don't complain when one day someone you do respect gets arrested for something they've said.

[Dole]

You seem completely obsessed with this fictional notion that we in the UK are living in some sort of 50s style 'Red China' where 'speaking out' is prohibited by death or something- its absolute bollocks, and pretty fucking insulting to the places where there really IS no freedom of speech.

Ken livingston was suspended for what he said - not sacked, shot or chemically castrated but suspended from his job for a month. Big fucking deal!

Was he making a pertinent political statement at the time? Was he trying to inform the electorate about some information that has been kept from us? Was he expressing an unpopular political opinion?

NO- he got into a fight with a fucking daily mail journalist and insulted him using a pretty tired, cliched analogy that the recipient took major offense over because of the nature of the insult and because he was Jewish - and subsequently Livingston was punished. Was his punishment over the top? Arguably, yes. But he was ONLY FUCKING SUSPENDED FROM HIS JOB for a MONTH.

[Pharaoh]

The leader of the British National party, Nick Griffin, is still on trial for things he said at a private meeting which was secretly filmed.

No doubt you don't give a shit about him either, but where's our freedom of speech when he's facing up to seven years in prison just for saying in a speech that Islam is a "vicious, wicked faith"?

[Abcdxxxx]

freedom of speech, and accountability are two different things.

[Pharaoh]

Yes, they obviously are, but I'm not sure about what you mean by that statement. Are you referring to the Nick Griffin case? Because that's not about accountability it's about the government gagging the BNP and stopping any criticism of Muslims and Islam.

[Abcdxxxx]

Politicians are held to a higher standard, and being outspoken can get you in trouble.

What worries me more, are cases like the one in Germany where someone got convicted of a year in jail for printing toilet paper with the word "Koran" on it, that he offered for sale to mosques.

[Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

What worries me more, are cases like the one in Germany where someone got convicted of a year in jail for printing toilet paper with the word "Koran" on it, that he offered for sale to mosques.

Yes, and no doubt Dole 'couldn't give a shit' about that either.

I think the guy should have offered churches some 'Holy Bible' toilet paper too, and then it would clearly show that Muslims are getting special treatment, because there's no way he would be jailed for that.

Anyway do Muslims use toilet paper? I thought they used their left hand and water or something.

[Emu]

I think you're talking about a bidet.

Speaking of which, we need an emoticon for that.

[Dole]

The leader of the British National party, Nick Griffin, is still on trial for things he said at a private meeting which was secretly filmed.

Yep - ON TRIAL. Already acquitted of some of the charges. He is going through the legal process where a jury will determine if his words were 'intended or likely to stir up racial hatred'. The first Jury could not decide on 2 of the 4 charges, so a retrial is occurring.

What draconian oppression!