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  #26  
Kulturkampf Kulturkampf is offline
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 02:39 AM       
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Originally Posted by ziggytrix
I just noticed Kuturjerk said he wanted to war against Islamic fundmentalism, NOT Islamic extremism.

Did you really mean that?

I think the problem with global society is extremism of any creed. The point at which we are willing to say, "everything I stand for is righteous, and I must kill those who believe otherwise" is the point at which we are no better than rabid animals.
I'll change it to 'Islamic extremism' because people have a right to practice their religions, even on a political level, providing it does not mean someone ends up dead over it.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 03:04 AM       
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Originally Posted by kahljorn
The christian bible has the same laws. Good day sir.


Are you really just 10 years old and struggling to keep up????? It's not a matter of double standards... there's nothing in any Bible which excuses what's going on in several Muslim nations. Name the Christian nations which apply those laws, then maybe you'd have a point. Try again.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 04:49 AM       
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Originally Posted by kahljorn
Anthropology is the study of culture, which is why I referenced it in connection to primitive body language. Dumbass.
You're the dumbass, kahljorn.

Anthropology is the study of mankind. It's a wide ranging discipline that includes physical anthropology, cultural anthropology, linguistic anthropology and archaeology.

Physical anthropology studies the mechanisms of biological evolution, genetic inheritance, human adaptability and variation, primatology, primate morphology, and the fossil record of human evolution.

Like I said, you talk out of your arse.
Don't worry though, it's a common physical adaption among leftists.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 09:24 AM       
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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
"everything I stand for is righteous, and I must kill those who believe otherwise" sounds like basic Muslim teachings.
I disagree.

Quote:
For one thing, when a Muslim is sitting with you at Denny's, he's not acting as a good Muslim in the eyes of Mohhamed, now is he? He wouldn't make it very far in the eyes of most Fundamentalist Islamic Mullahs.
Considering that he was witnessing (sorry if this is the wrong term, I've predominantly Christian background) to an unbeliever, I'd think he was being a very good Muslim.


Quote:
Now, Shari'a itself isn't a dangerous concept. They are just religious laws....but the stonings, and woman & non-Muslims as second class citizens ARE key Shari'as which stem from Koranic verses, and again, they follow the ideals that you describe as being on par with animals.
I already addressed this point: we can pull verses from Islamic scriptures to argue whether or not violence is integral to Islam. I can think of a few Christian scriptures that were probably used to justify the more heinous acts of the medieval Church, but that doesn't mean Christianity is integrally violent.

I would go so far as to say fundamentalisms, in general sense, are regressive and bad for social development. But they are infinitely preferable to extremisms.

Unwillingness to see a difference between fundamentalism and extremism in a religion is a big problem for secularists and opponents of a particular religion, but if we are to acknowledge a place for religious liberty in this world, then it is a very important difference to acknowledge.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 10:13 AM       
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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
China + Israel kissing in a tree. There is also a union with India forming. (and to confuse things even more, a partnership between India and Russia. Meaning, they're all double dipping).
Yeah, I think this is a great point. It's very attractive to throw China in there as a natural enemy to us now, but i would think 2007 is too early to assume that. I see no reason why China would enter into a war against Israel, although I could see the hypothetical if they had to choose between a partnership with Israel and a partnership with oil providing countries.


Quote:
When Israel took out Iraq's reaktor it caught everyone by surprise. They flew in and out (over Jordan, and back) without being detected by radars. There's little change they're going to act like Babe Ruth and call the hit to Iran.
Well, I think the argument he was making was the Israel will be weighed down in transition, with Sharon ill, etc.

His other point seems to be that the UN and others will complicate matters, thus delaying immediate Israeli action.
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 01:40 PM       
"I have written some blog entries pertinent to this topic"

Yay.

"Name the Christian nations which apply those laws, then maybe you'd have a point. "

So just because you're a bad christian who doesn't follow your religion it makes muslims bad?

Pharaoh, I notice that in your lengthy speech of the difference between anthropology and anthropology you still used the word anthropology. Physical anthropology is merely a division of anthropology, just like there are various divisions within science or english. Are a few of them unscientific? No. They are just different divisions. Why do they seperate it? So you can learn things in different classes

an·thro·pol·o·gy Audio pronunciation of "anthropology" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nthr-pl-j)
n.

1. The scientific study of the origin, the behavior, and the physical, social, and cultural development of humans.

Shut the fuck up.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 02:07 PM       
Erm, yeah, kahljorn, but I've already said that physical anthropology is a division of anthropology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
Anthropology is the study of mankind. It's a wide ranging discipline that includes physical anthropology, cultural anthropology, linguistic anthropology and archaeology.
Maybe you should take a bit more time in reading posts, then you won't waste so much time making invalid points.
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 02:16 PM       
Yea, good job making yourself look like an ass:

"You don't understand anthropology at all! What you're talking about is physical anthropology, which is a division of anthropology. You're so talking out of your ass"

Basically your entire insult was nothing, then. Good job, fuckface. Seems like you're the one talking out of your ass, trying so hard to find an insult...
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 03:30 PM       
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Originally Posted by kahljorn
"Name the Christian nations which apply those laws, then maybe you'd have a point. "

So just because you're a bad christian who doesn't follow your religion it makes muslims bad?
What the fuck are you talking about? He is making the point that just because there are violent verses in the Bible doesn't mean Christians and Christian nations of today are following the more barbacic verses as it seems the Muslim world in the Middle East is doing from their Koran at the present time. Islam is a factor of Islamic facism....... I don't see how you can deny that

Just like Chritianity is a factor in abortion clinics being blown up.

And why are people fighting over something that has nothing to do with this thread?
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 04:17 PM       
"What the fuck are you talking about? He is making the point that just"

Um, okay, how does that change the fact that they are just following their fundamental religious values? You act like they are doing it to be evil, but that would be saying the base of christianity is evil.
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ziggytrix ziggytrix is offline
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 04:40 PM       
I guess it all just boils down to whose propaganda you're eating today.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 04:55 PM       
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Originally Posted by kahljorn
Yea, good job making me look like an ass.

Basically your entire insult was excellent. Good job. Seems like I'm the one talking out of my ass, trying so hard to find an insult...
Thanks, kahljorn, I'm impressed that your such a good loser!
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 05:05 PM       
It's not a matter of propaganda, it's a matter of being able to look at how those communities have progressed, and how serious they take certain stances. I wouldn't say bombing a Planned Parenthood is the moral equivalence to the laws in Saudi Arabia which effects anyone who is not a Male Muslim.

I would encourage you to go to Ummah forum and ask them if "everything I stand for is righteous, and I must kill those who believe otherwise" sounds like a basic tenant of Islam. There is no difference how Muslims view righteousness, and the fate of non-Muslims. There is a difference on how they put it into action.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 05:23 PM       
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Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

His other point seems to be that the UN and others will complicate matters, thus delaying immediate Israeli action.
When Israel bombed the Osirak nuclear facility it was almost in the interest of Iran at the time...who also tried the same attack earlier that year. There is a working relationship (though very hushhush, including arms dealing) between the two States, with an oil pipeline involved. Israel's action against Iraq was heavily criticised at the time. There were UN resolutions, with the US siding against Israel, and Leftists flipped out. This was a month before Israel went into Beirut....Likud were in office, with Sharon as Minister of Defense.

The China thing is interesting, because the idea is if the US pulls their funding to Israel, then Red China will step in. Russia, and China both are trying to line up their cards, with potential partnerships with India (and India has a new defense agreement with Israel, because they bookend the Muslim States). With Russia, there is interest in bypassing the Arab states and providing oil to Europe and beyond. All more complicated and speculative then i can describe, but these relationships are the real future of the region.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 05:39 PM       
But look how you're applying your righteousness. "You know, muslims are obviously wrong because they don't share my philosophy". They are just going by what has been bred into their culture for MANY MANY years-- just like you are when you accuse them of wrong. Unlike us, they haven't had the 300 years or whatever of democratic development under the guise of equality. So what, they are a little 'behind'. Quit judging them because our culture is more evolved. I wonder if there's a word for that kind of discrimination ;(
You can't sit there and say someone's wrong because they don't share your philosophy then call it Righteous; that's just hypocritical. They are going by THEIR values that THEY feel are righteous. I'm not saying I believe it's right or anything, I'm just saying their civilization is behind just like ours was 300 years ago when we still adhered to the core christian values. What had to happen for us to change? Alot.
Solutions to problems like this are few and generally take a while to develop any substantial effect, they also often result in civil wars or other strifes. I'm not sure if forcing it would work either-- in fact it probably wouldn't.
ANTHROPOLOOOOGY....
i wouldn't be surprised if many of the people who live there secretely wish they had our lives, though. That might be one of the reasons why they often migrate. Who knows, maybe our influence could reach far enough to begin a change there, but with all the assholes our country manages to produce I wouldn't be surprised if we failed miserably in that attempt.
I'd like to hear your suggestions to how to fix culturization problems, though.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 05:55 PM       
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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
I would encourage you to go to Ummah forum and ask them if "everything I stand for is righteous, and I must kill those who believe otherwise" sounds like a basic tenant of Islam. There is no difference how Muslims view righteousness, and the fate of non-Muslims. There is a difference on how they put it into action.
Do you have an account I can borrow? I got an error - "Sorry, registration has been disabled by the administrator."

Still, "I must kill unbelievers" does not sound like one of their 5 pillars to me, but I haven't been eating the same propaganda as you, so fill me in when ya get a chance. Maybe when I get more time I can dig thru that entire forum looking for something to support your claim. No wait, fuck that. Support your own damn claim, or let me continue to think you are simply prejudiced against all Muslims.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 06:09 PM       
Whatever happened to that Ireland vs. whoever war? Wasn't that technically a religious war?

The only muslim I've ever really talked to in detail was actually a really cool guy, the way he explained his beliefs was probably the most awesome thing I've ever heard. He didn't sound like some crazy murderer of non-believers. Shit, I feel bad because i thought he was joking when he said he was muslim and laughed. To this day I still regret that.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 06:35 PM       
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Originally Posted by kahljorn
But look how you're applying your righteousness. "You know, muslims are obviously wrong because they don't share my philosophy". They are just going by what has been bred into their culture for MANY MANY years-- just like you are when you accuse them of wrong. Unlike us, they haven't had the 300 years or whatever of democratic development under the guise of equality.
What's the word for YOUR discriminaton your retard? You just said Muslims aren't evolved. The vast majority of Muslims live as fine upstanding citizens in westernized societies, you moron. I don't need to give you my theories on "culturalization", they do just fine when they want to. They also do just fine when rationalizing the climate in the Middle East, by using the Koran to justify it.

(edit: that should have said, the vast majority who live in westenrized societies are upstanding. not to say the majority live in...you get it.)


By the way, I haven't given you my phillosophies on anything, you psychopath. You say I'm "accusing" them of wrong... is Darfur an accusation? Is it an accusation to say women are second class in the land of Mecca?
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 06:50 PM       
Ziggy - we both know I can pull up the Koranic verses. I've linked to articles which acknowledge and condemn these verses as well. If you want to turn a blind eye, it's your choice. MUSLIMS have found plenty in the Koran to justify their oppession of Jews, Christians, Homosexuals, Women....it goes on and on. The Fundamentalist Islamic community do not oppose such verses, either. It's bizarro that you think I'm prejudice towards them for believing them.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 07:00 PM       
You just got done saying they stone women and homosexuals and whoever else and you find that bad. Hence my saying their culture is unevolved. Get it? They don't have civil rights. Get it? Culture. Evolution. I wasn't saying they were monkeys or anything.

"There's no difference between the two when it comes to righteousness, and wishing death to non-believers. In fact, that is a very Quranic thought in itself."

I never said you were discriminating, just that you were acting like your ideas on what's "Right" for culture were more right. How do you know that stoning women isn't a good thing? There's alot out there on the effects of feminization of culture-- from various angles.

"The vast majority of Muslims live as fine upstanding citizens in westernized societies, you moron."

Argue that with kulterkamph and pharoh, the ones who say they create a big problem in our society. Moron. I love how easy people are led into shit, I didn't even say anything to directly lead you to that assumption. How come you haven't said anything to them? Huh? They are the one's who are actually discriminatory, i never said they are a pox on society.

"You say I'm "accusing" them of wrong"

I'm saying according to their values and laws what they are doing is RIGHT and you are saying it's WRONG. If you weren't saying it's wrong, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Good day sir.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 07:02 PM       
The well-documented mistreatment of women is a fair accusation. It should be noted that the most fundamentalist interpretations of Christianity and Judaism share many Islamic attitudes toward women, gays, and in the case of fundamentalist Christianity, the equation of all unbelievers with Satanism.

This is a far cry from "they want to kill all unbelievers." You not gonna back that accusation up ABC? Did you realize how extremist is made you sound? Or are you still looking thru that fourm for actual Fundamentalists to quote?

But damn it man, I'm not even trying to say I like fundamentalist Islam or fundametalist religion of any flavor for that matter! Fundamentalist attitudes generally sicken me. I forget what comedian I'm ripping off here, but I wouldn't call it "tolerance" if I liked it.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 07:40 PM       
All muslims want to kill women, except the ones who are standup citizens who live in the west. Those guys are great.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 07:53 PM       
Okay Lenny and Squiggy...

I think you're both a bit confused.

a) Shari'a law as it's currently applied by Muslims currently has no equal. The "how do you know stoning women is bad" argument is for 5 year olds. You both need to grow up. For the last time, the bad Rabbi doesn't justify the bad Mullah. Stop with the moral equivalency. It's dumb.

b) The term Fundamentalist applied to Islam is a misnomer. We're talking about beliefs which are standard, common, and Koranic, wether or not they await the day when these verses come to light, or take extremist actions to provoke the words of Muhhamed as their duty. A good analysis of this contradiction (which is also relevant to this threads original purpose) can be found here: http://hnn.us/articles/1805.html.

c) The marginalized Muslims are the moderate ones like Nonie Darwish http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles...e.asp?ID=16554, Irshad Manji http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/ , and Shayke Pallazi (linked earlier) who take a progressive approach to how their scriptures are INTERPETED, which matches modernized society, on par with other religions. Especially the religions which Islam co-opted. It also matches the upstanding and peacefull lifestyles that the majority of Muslims wish to continue.

d) Islam was founded by a conquerer. Muslims vs. Jews in Israel, Muslims vs. Hindus in Kashmir, Muslims vs. Christians in Nigeria, Muslims vs. Buddhists in Southern Thailand..... we can stop here. I'm not speaking from prejudice. There is clearly a problem. The lack of outcry against these Islam vs. everyon- who- isn't-Islam is a telling one.

e) 2:193- “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”

9:29- "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Zizziya tax) by hand, being inferior.”
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 08:30 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
b) The term Fundamentalist applied to Islam is a misnomer. We're talking about beliefs which are standard, common, and Koranic, wether or not they await the day when these verses come to light, or take extremist actions to provoke the words of Muhhamed as their duty. A good analysis of this contradiction (which is also relevant to this threads original purpose) can be found here: http://hnn.us/articles/1805.html.
Your article contradicts your assertion that the beliefs are standard and common. "Islam is a religion with a long history and with different theological and juridical schools. The Koran is not really a coherent book able to provide Muslims with clear and unambiguous guidelines." "if we take only the Koran, which is the main source of Islam and which should be the point of convergence between Muslims, it leads us to further confusion about Islam." "Islam is too general, too elusive and too ambiguous"

I think it backs my stated opinions rather well.

Quote:
It also matches the upstanding and peacefull lifestyles that the majority of Muslims wish to continue.
This remark does not seem characteristic of a religion whose fundamentals mandate the murder of nonbelievers, nor of a system which marginalizes progressives. I'd like to think you are correct in that statement. It certainly jives with my very limited experience.


Regarding your seceted reading of the Koran, as I said at the outset, you can quote scripture, and so can I.

"You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion" - (109.6).

Chapter 2, Verse 190: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors."

"Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them" (4: 90).

"There must be no coercion in matters of faith!" (2: 256)

Any one of these lines can be, and is quoted by Muslims who condemn the practices of extremists, but just because their voice isn't as loud as the extremists doesn't mean they are talking. Extremists will take violent text out of context and use it as justification for atrocities, but this is a symptom of human powermadness, not of Muslim religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by National Geographic
If people are intent on using religion to motivate terror or violence, they'll find an excuse there no matter what the actual text says," says David Rodier of American University in Washington, D.C., who is an expert on the world's religions. Like the Koran, he says, most holy scriptures are filled with stories of war and warriors, and these images have been used throughout history by some members of every faith to justify bloodshed.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...5_TVkoran.html

This is getting tedious.
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Old Jan 17th, 2006, 09:33 PM       
Seriously, what could be making suicide bombers intent on suicidal violence if it's not the religious ideas? What's the ulterior motive that makes them so intent on using religion for violence? Saying that anyone can interpret any religion to justify violence so no particular religion can be judged for the violence done its name seems to be a pretty unsatisfactory explanation.

And I don't really see why we can't judge the values of another culture. I mean, I don't think stoning women for showing their ankles is an affront to my Canadian beliefs, I'd call it an affront to the dignity of human life. When people talk about the inability to judge such heinous practices of other cultures because of some kind of fundamental and irreconcilble differences in values it kind of makes me wonder how such people consider other cultures to be composed of beings sufficiently similar to be worthy of moral consideration at all. If our values are based on our own cultures only, then is there any reason for people of different cultures to have any moral consideration whatsoever for one another? What I mean is if all our values are based on our cultures, rather then our humanity, then what makes people human?
But then, I didn't really read the whole thread that carefully, maybe I misunderstand your point, but thats actually kind of a serious question, not just a rhetorical one.
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