What would YOU do if YOU were in charge!!!

[VinceZeb]

Carnivore should have just summed it up in one statement:

1. I want to bring back the Soviet Union


So idiot, where you gonna get all the money for all these "basic rights"? When is clothing, food or housing a "basic right"?

We have the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. We have those when we are born. Our rights are derived from something that EVERYONE has when we were first born upon the Earth, no matter what time in history. Food is something you have to hunt for. Clothing was something you had to make. If you didn't make your own shelter, well tough titties becuase you weren't going to have any.

Why should higher education be a right? If everyone is higher educated, who is going to work at McDonalds? Who is going to clean shit? If everyone is a PHD, it kinda loses the pizzazz it used to have.

So you would regulate who could give birth in this country? When did you become God?

Completely seperate govt from religion.... well, go right ahead. We have seen the end result of those experients in the 20th century... round 100 million dead and even more still suffering. Idiot.

So, when John and Cindy get married, you will see it as the same as John and Bob. Marriage is a religious institution in the first place, and it isnt anyone's "right". Little biology lesson for Dorkivore: Dick + Pussy = Ability to have kids. Dick + Dick = no ability to naturally have kids

So, you would be an environut. Why is the ozone layer worse over in Africa now than it is in the U.S.? All enviromental laws do is costs business money which 50% of the time are completely unnecessary.

And it's nice you show your true Commie colors by killing those you disagree with.

[pjalne]

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

Why should higher education be a right? If everyone is higher educated, who is going to work at McDonalds? Who is going to clean shit? If everyone is a PHD, it kinda loses the pizzazz it used to have.

He said it should be a right, not the only fucking possibility. You don't HAVE to be a doctor. Higher education is pretty much available to anyone who wants to study here in Norway, and guess what? We can still get burgers at McDonalds, and the shit gets cleaned.

[The One and Only...]

Originally Posted by Carnivore

2. Make food, clothing, shelter, medical care, and higher education guaranteed rights for all citizens.

You do that, and we will have too many educated people. Simple as that. Mark my words: there will be a day when a skilled stonemason/carpender/whatever will be the ones making the big money (except for entreprenuers).

4. Welfare would be given in the form of vouchers that can only be used for food, shelter, clothing. Additionally, all able-bodied persons would have to work for their vouchers.

WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!! Food, clothing, medical care, and higher education are guaranteed rights, remember? I'm assuming this be payed for by the government - for everyone, mind you, - so what is the need for Welfare?

5. Require those who wish to have children to obtain a permit.

Right. So if a person just gets pregnant by accident, she has to abort the baby? Waste of tax dollars, if you ask me.

8. Disallow corporate involvement in elections and end all corporate welfare programs.

I certainly hope you don't want the taxpayer to pay for campaigns.

11. Completely outlaw all forms of discrimination, including affirmative action.

*Clap clap clap*

12. Deport all citizens of the Deep South.

Screw you too, buddy.

[Carnivore]

So idiot, where you gonna get all the money for all these "basic rights"? When is clothing, food or housing a "basic right"?

Taxes. It is my hope that if I were in charge I could count on the citizenry to accept their responsibility to help their less fortunate neighbors. And I'm not talking clothes by Versace, filet mignon, and mansions here. I'm talking bread and water, clothes from Walmart, and single rooms with shared bathrooms.

Why should higher education be a right? If everyone is higher educated, who is going to work at McDonalds? Who is going to clean shit? If everyone is a PHD, it kinda loses the pizzazz it used to have.

Not everyone will have a doctorate. If someone is smart enough to get one, however, they won't have to worry about paying for it. There's nothing shittier than an exceptionally smart kid working at a fast food joint because he can't afford college.

So you would regulate who could give birth in this country? When did you become God?

The more I work in EMS, the more I see people who have no place as parents raising more kids than they should. I think that if someone has a child without a licence, the child should be taken away for the sake of the child.

Completely seperate govt from religion.... well, go right ahead. We have seen the end result of those experients in the 20th century... round 100 million dead and even more still suffering. Idiot.

Separating government from religion and prohibiting the free practice of religion are two completely different animals. If a complete idiot thinks you're an idiot, does that make you smart? If so, I'll take that as a compliment.

So, when John and Cindy get married, you will see it as the same as John and Bob. Marriage is a religious institution in the first place, and it isnt anyone's "right". Little biology lesson for Dorkivore: Dick + Pussy = Ability to have kids. Dick + Dick = no ability to naturally have kids

Procreation is not the only reason to get married, shitbrick. People do get married just because they love each other. I know heterosexual couples that have no children and no intention of having them. No religion can be forced to accept a homosexual marriage, but the government should make no distinction as religion has no place in government.

And it's nice you show your true Commie colors by killing those you disagree with.

You are certainly not the only one with whom I disagree, but you're the only one I'd kill.

[mburbank]

Make food, clothing, shelter, medical care, and higher education guaranteed rights for all citizens.
-Carni


Why stop there? Why not make cars and beach homes basic human rights?
-El Blanco.

Well... Because you need food, clothing, shelter and medical care to survive and you don't need cars or beach homes to survive. As far as higher education goes, you don't need it, but isn't an educated citizenry good for the country? But leave that out, it's arguable. The difference between beach home and food... that's just a sad question.


Our village idiot Vinth asks:
" When is clothing, food or housing a "basic right"? "
And immediately follows with

"We have the right to life..."

Did he go to school? Did he never get the class on how Food, Clothing and Shelter were the pre requisites for life? Now, you may not think life SHOULD be a 'right', but you said it, not me.

Need I also point out that this thread is not "What do you think this country should be doing"? It's What would you do.

Here's what I get. A lot of yyou think a Eutopia wouldn't work. Hell, I don't think it would work. '

Here's what I don't get. Those of you who seem to be revolted by the idea of eutopia, who are actually repulsed by the very concept of a government taking care of people.

If it was just that you thought historically this impulse has led to corruption and totalitarianism, I get that. But it seems like a more viceral rejection of ANYBODY getting ANYTHING they didn't work as hard for as you think you have.

I don't get that. I see a junky on the street, I think, "Jesus, that's awful. I feel so sorry for that guy." If I have some change, I give it to him, and I hope like he'll he'll get some help becuase he's suffering. I hope he'll buy some food instead of another fix, but that's not within my choice, my choice was wether or not to try.

People who look at a junky and think "You fucking disgusting WASTE, why don't you clean up and GET A JOB so I don't have to LOOK AT YOU, you piece of garbage."... I don't get that. I don't get seeing suffering and feeling hatred.

[VinceZeb]

Dorkivore, marriage is the beginning of a family. I could live with a woman all my life and claim her as my "lifemate" and taxwise get off better than being married.

Marriage is the start of a family. Families are begun when children are created. That is what marriage was intended to do. It wasn't intended to give special benefits for rug munchers or ass pirates.

[The One and Only...]

It depends.

You see, if that guy just doesn't feel like cleaning toilets for money and would rather be out on the street, I feel no pity.

If some shitface would rather just sit on his Welfare money and never work, I feel anger.

There are usually jobs to be found: it's just that we don't want to take them. If every single low-class job was taken, I might think differently; however, they are not.

[mburbank]

Yeah, see, if I see someone who's choices are the street or cleaning toilets, I just feel bad. I can't imagine getting angry.

The street is pretty awful. I figure anyone there is in way worse shape than me, no matter what they're choosing. Wellfare is a pretty rough life as well. My wife works with Wellfare families every day, has for years, and while she's met a number of folks who cheat the system, she's yet to meet the mythic wellfare Queen living on lobster and watching a big screen TV. The live in horrible neighborhoods and housing and in my experience, while I guess some are 'shitfaces' many are not. Why should I hate them? Because maybe a penny pff each dollar I earn goes to them? I can't see it. I wish them well. I hope they make better choices, but they're welcome to my penny. They could even have a few more. There's so much more out there for me to get worked up about. Ken Lay, there's a guy I hate.

As far as low class jobs go, try supporting yourself wiithout parental help on minimum wage. No question, it's better than the street, but it's a hard, lousy life. Why do you guys concider a lack of compassion a good thing? Why are some of you actively proud of it, especially some of you who call yourselves religous? Did Jesus look at beggars and say "Why can you shitfaces get a JOB?!?"

[VinceZeb]

TOAO, I have no problem with helping people out that want it. If people want to help out more, let them. Just don't make me help out if I chose not to. It isn't my responsability as a United States citizen to help people that fuck up their lives.

[El Blanco]

Originally Posted by pjalne

He said it should be a right, not the only fucking possibility. You don't HAVE to be a doctor. Higher education is pretty much available to anyone who wants to study here in Norway, and guess what? We can still get burgers at McDonalds, and the shit gets cleaned.

So, anybody can just walk into an institute of higher learning and demand to be taught? Or do you have standards?

[FS]

I assume Carni meant the chance at higher education. An idiot sent to a university isn't going to come out as Steven Hawking without the handicaps. But a brainiac won't have to sit at school being bored and wishing that he could do something worthwile with his intelligence. At least, I'm going with interpretation here.

Also, I do not mean to suggest that people who work with their hands are idiots.

[mburbank]

" It isn't my responsability as a United States citizen to help people that fuck up their lives."
-Vinth

Actually, as a united states citizen under our current system of law, it IS your responsability, and it's the law.

But I don't buy the whole "It's the PRINCIPLE that gets me!", and I don't think it's really the pennies off the dollar that bothers you either.

Either you pathalogically loathe authority or you have a viceral hatred of people getting anything you don't get, no matter how small. You see a guy get food stamps, and you honestly feel as aggrieved as if you personally and all by yourself paid his grocery bill. I can't decide which is bigger, the chip on your shoulder or the beam in your eye.

Honestly, can any one out there calculate the actual dollar amount a person who makes $30,000.00 a year is paying in taxes to welfare recipients? I'm willing to accept that it bothers you, just as the potion of my salary that goes to building faster, better, more lethal killing devices bothers me. But why does it make you SO rabid dog mad?

[The One and Only...]

Originally Posted by mburbank

...and I don't think it's really the pennies off the dollar that bothers you either.

Pennies off the dollar? It's a bit more than pennies.

Do you realize that the tax rate in the U.S. used to be around 2%? Look at it now. Ugh.

Anyway, I don't like Welfare because it is so open to abuse. I honestly despise those who mooch off of it at the expense of others - like a child who lives off their parents. People who could get a decent job, such as construction, but refuse to. Thinking they are too good to work or something.

These people are slobs. There are people out there who are delivering pizzas for a living and these guys just sit on their tush. It's the people who are actually contributing to society that deserve anything, and even then I think there are better ways to solve the problem than Welfare.

[mburbank]

"Pennies off the dollar? It's a bit more than pennies. "

So, you're under the impression that all of your taxes go to welfare? And the military and govt. itself pay for themselves? Pennies off the dollar. That's how much withheld from your paycheck goes to people on welfare. Perhaps less. Welfare is a tiny, tiny fraction of your tax burden.

You know a lot of folks on welfare, personally do you? And you're well versed in patterns of abuse? How do you think those crimes (and they are crimes, and if you get caught, you get pinished) compare to white collar crime? The latest round of corporate crime has impacted the entire US economy and destroyed peoples retirements. You think your tax dollars won't go to solving those problems? And you waste your 'loathing' on people who's crimes give them a life much worse than your own even when they're succsesful?

Thinking they are too good to work? I promise you, open to fraud or not, cheating the welfare system takes more work than Mickey D's. I challenge you to get on welfare. Try it and see how easy to abuse it is. When people tell you about all this 'abuse', do you just believe it, or do you question it?

Welfare abuse is petty, small time crime. Sure, it's bad, and sure it takes money away from people who need it (and I don;t mean you and me, I mean other people who truly need to be on welfare). There are lots worse things out there for you to get worked up over.

Whatever you think of them, I'll tell you this. If someone is living on welfare, there life is worse than yours, they are more troubled than you, and if they are abusing the system rather than working they are more messed up than you are. You are almost certainly happier, you almost certainly live in a better neighborhood, you are safer, you have access to better education, etc, etc, etc. Compassion is free, it doesn't hurt you and it might actually help you. Loathing and disdain never made anyone a better person.

[The One and Only...]

Compassion is not free when it is being taken out of my pocket.

It might be pennies off the dollar, but that argument can only be used so many times. With all the things the government does, those pennies add up.

Also, did you infer that I think I need welfare? I don't think that, if that was what you meant.

Welfare has, in my mind, failed. It just doesn't work. If - and that's a big if - both sides of the political spectrum ever try to make a compromise on the issue, I would suggest taking the money that is currently going to welfare and giving it to private charities. I feel they would be more efficient.

[mburbank]

"Compassion is not free when it is being taken out of my pocket. "

The chip on your shoulder school of thought. Damn those shiftless poor people, using the laws of our government to pick my pocket! Try walking in someone elses pocket for a change and stop being so defensive about your own. You remind me of a three year old guarding toys.

Why is it you are more aggrivated about the pitence from your pocket going to welfare programs than I am about the chunk going from mine to bombs for a war I feel "Isn't working"? Why is it I, a so called liberal, am far more willing to accept taxes that overwhelmingly pay for thing I don't like, than a conservative?

Because the very idea of some fictional, anonymous, person 'getting' some of 'your' money makes you vicerally ill. Don't be so proud and sure the day won' come when you need help.

Taxation isn't robbery, even if it goes to things you don't think work. I accept that about war, which I think almost never works. Taxation isn't our money. It belongs to the nation, it's part of our social contract as citizens. You Uber patriots do the the nation and citizzenship are important right? They aren't free. We collectively, through representative democracy, agree on priorities. That's big part of being American. It can't all be flag waving and explosions. The tattered. tiny safety net left wasn't imposed on us by an alien armada. It was voted for by representatives elected by the people of the United States of America.

[AChimp]

It might be pennies off the dollar, but that argument can only be used so many times. With all the things the government does, those pennies add up.

Are you really that stupid, or just bad at math? A few pennies from everyone adds up, yes, but it still amounts to a few pennies from YOU.

[mburbank]

And they call liberals whiny! Oh, boo-hoo, that bum gots my nickel! Oh sob-sob, I have to wait three days before I can get my assault rifle and teflon coated bullets and if I have a criminal record I might not even get one! What if I get invaded during that three day wait? Wah, wah, wah. What a bunch of babies.

[El Blanco]

I really don't understand why they are whining over teflon covered bullets. They don't actually pierce armor.

Anyway: What would I do if I were in charge?

I have to make something clear. I in no way shape or form intend to be a benevolent leader. I am there to make things work, bot be a lovey-dovey buddy to everybody. I will put the "dic" in "dictator".

1) Mandatory public service for citizenship. Not neccasserily military service, but everyone will be required to some how dedicate time and effort to the community.

2) Streamline government agencies. I am sick of reading about middle management jack asses whose whole existence is to write a report about how he is indespensable to the government. I won't abolish the IRS, we still need an accounting department, but it is way too bloated.

3) Cut farm subsidies. Sorry, Farmer BrownCorp, but if you can't grasp a simple concept like supply and demand, you shouldn't be running a bussiness.

4) Turn the screws on the Saudis. Hey 17 of 19 highjackers are Saudi, Ossama is Saudi, half the cash funding these outfits comes from SA, and were risking our asses to protect them from Saddam. Am I the only one who sees a problem here?

5) Push Women's Rights forward 50 years. I will do more for women's lib with one act than NOW did in the last 20 years. Women will now be required to fill out selective service forms when they turn 18. The glass ceiling will fall soon after.

6) Mandatory uniforms for schools that receive federal funding. I know it isn't the be all and end all to fixing the problems, but its a start.

7) Everywhere we have a base, I will let those people decide if they want us there. South Koreans want us to leave? OK, just don't whine when Kim Jong Il rolls into Seoul.

8) The Palestine issue will be settled by a steel cage death match between Sharon and Arafat.

9) Abortion will be a state issue.

10) Reality shows will be outlawed. If you can't put a quality show on the air, get the fuck out of the bussiness.

11) You will need a permit to have children. Parents doing a shitty job raising a kid put out something 100x more dangerous than a hunter, or fisherman or even a drunk driver.

12) We stop trading with France until they send us Roman Polanski. Fuck them and their bullshit moral superiority. Bunch of hypocrites.

13) The DH and astroturf will be outlawed. And Bud Selig will be forced to actually watch his own team play.

[The One and Only...]

Ick. You people frighten me.

Remember? I mentioned there was a time when tax was 2%. That was it. Period. Income tax is what, 20-35% now? That's just wrong, IMO. So you can't tell me all these things don't add up.

And they call liberals whiny! Oh, boo-hoo, that bum gots my nickel! Oh sob-sob, I have to wait three days before I can get my assault rifle and teflon coated bullets and if I have a criminal record I might not even get one! What if I get invaded during that three day wait? Wah, wah, wah. What a bunch of babies.

I don't care if I wait 3 days for my gun. I don't like my money going out to people that don't deserve it just as much as you don't like the war. I never said you were whiny.

You must think I'm some rich dickhead. I'm not. I'm middle class and I used to live in a crummy duplex where the water barely even run. I was never poor, but I came close. You act like you know me so well, except you don't.

Bottom line: Welfare is not efficient, and could be handled better by private organizations. Whether or not it should be around at all is debateable.

If you people are so worried about the poor, why don't you just donate money to charities? Charities could better determine who really needed the money, and would better be able to deliver it to them. I think that if people really did get back to the day where we only had 2% tax rates, we would be more prone to doing just that.

So in conclusion: screw you. I hate that you think I don't care about people, but hey, I am a conservative, right?

[The One and Only...]

Originally Posted by El Blanco

6) Mandatory uniforms for schools that receive federal funding. I know it isn't the be all and end all to fixing the problems, but its a start.

Why? I don't see a problem.

9) Abortion will be a state issue.

It doesn't work. One could skip over to the next state to get abortion, and come back. A law would protect them (I forget what it is called, but I trust you know what I am talking about).

11) You will need a permit to have children. Parents doing a shitty job raising a kid put out something 100x more dangerous than a hunter, or fisherman or even a drunk driver.

I don't see how this would be done properly. If you were really worried, I would just put up an income cap to make sure they can support a child. Of course, I support no such thing...

[Big Papa Goat]

I have to make something clear. I in no way shape or form intend to be a benevolent leader. I am there to make things work, bot be a lovey-dovey buddy to everybody. I will put the "dic" in "dictator".

Right. Just like Stalin and Hitler. I know it was a joke, but I'm just saying.

1) Mandatory public service for citizenship. Not neccasserily military service, but everyone will be required to some how dedicate time and effort to the community.

Great idea. People should give back to the community for the betterment of soceity. But I don't think it would work, I mean, if people resent giving money for soceity's improvement, how hard are they going to work at mandatory public service?

3) Cut farm subsidies. Sorry, Farmer BrownCorp, but if you can't grasp a simple concept like supply and demand, you shouldn't be running a bussiness.

Don't complain about farmers with your mouth full. Personally I don't like you Americans subsidizing the hell out of your farms in the face of international trade agreements, but there is a reason farms are subsidized. If too many farms go under... the US may have to import large amounts of food simply to avert famine. This would put you yanks in a very unfavourable position. And besides, everyone else does it, so if you stop, your farmers won't be able to compete, since imported foods will be cheaper. I guess tariffs could work for that.

4) Turn the screws on the Saudis. Hey 17 of 19 highjackers are Saudi, Ossama is Saudi, half the cash funding these outfits comes from SA, and were risking our asses to protect them from Saddam. Am I the only one who sees a problem here?

Good idea, except that might cause the Saudi's to turn the screws on your oil supplies.

5) Push Women's Rights forward 50 years. I will do more for women's lib with one act than NOW did in the last 20 years. Women will now be required to fill out selective service forms when they turn 18. The glass ceiling will fall soon after.

Whats a selective service form? What will it do to the glass ceiling?

6) Mandatory uniforms for schools that receive federal funding. I know it isn't the be all and end all to fixing the problems, but its a start.

All in all, your just another brick in the wall!

7) Everywhere we have a base, I will let those people decide if they want us there. South Koreans want us to leave? OK, just don't whine when Kim Jong Il rolls into Seoul.

You think American troops are in South Korea to protect the poor little brown people? They're there to protect the balance of power, and to contain a threat to the status quo in Asia. So why would you find it ironic when they come whining when Kim Jong Il rolls into Seoul? Hell you'd be more concerned about than the goddam South Koreans!

8) The Palestine issue will be settled by a steel cage death match between Sharon and Arafat.

Ya, because the strife in that area is all about the leaders of the country dragging an unwilling population into conflict. And don't worry, I knew it was a joke.

9) Abortion will be a state issue.

:/

10) Reality shows will be outlawed. If you can't put a quality show on the air, get the fuck out of the bussiness.

What happened to supply and demand? If farmer brown has to understand it, why can't you? There is a damand for shitty television, and these dumb fucks are meeting it. If you don't like it, go back to Russia!

11) You will need a permit to have children. Parents doing a shitty job raising a kid put out something 100x more dangerous than a hunter, or fisherman or even a drunk driver.

This idea makes me want you to be a dictator with the power to enforce it We really do have to re-evaluate all these notions of 'basic rights' when the excercise of them is so destructive.

12) We stop trading with France until they send us Roman Polanski. Fuck them and their bullshit moral superiority. Bunch of hypocrites.

How could one statutory rapist mean that much to you? I'm pretty sure the sex was entirely consentual beyond the whole technicality thing. Sure he's a sick fuck, but he makes cool movies and who really gives that much of a fuck about one sick fuck?

13) The DH and astroturf will be outlawed. And Bud Selig will be forced to actually watch his own team play.

[Big Papa Goat]

1. I want to bring back the Soviet Union

I don't think I remember anything from Carni's post about nationalization of any businesses, let alone entire industries. I don't know if you were just being sarcastic, or exaggerating, or just being a little pischer, but you do it a lot.
But your not alone. There are a lot of conservatives out there that don't seem to understand the difference between a welfare state, a socialist state and a communist state. What Carni described was basically a welfare state, where people are taken care of, and taxation on the wealthy is on the high side, but the means of production are still in the hands of private individuals. Sure he cuts out some freedoms, but that is more of a dictatorial thing than a communist thing.

Now that we've got that out of the way, pay attention while I describe to you what a socialist government, or more precisely, a democratic socialist government does. They nationalize, partially or completly certain industries, and often become more or less involved in the running of other industries through regulation or in some cases government-corporate cooperation. These governements also typically have higher taxes than a welfare state, and restrict economic freedoms of entrepeneurs and businessmen, but increase some of the rights of workers through pro-union policies, progressive taxation and by welfare state like policies.

A communist government nationalizes almost all of a countries industries, and allows only the slightest amount of private business. Communist governments are totalitarian, and as such, political freedoms are severely hampered. Most of the time, and vividly illustrated in the Soviet Union, communist economies are inefficient and plagued by worker and management apathy.

I hope you enjoyed my short discourse on left wing political systems, and I hope you found it informative. PS if I got anything drastically wrong, which I may have, please correct me.