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CaptainBubba CaptainBubba is offline
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Old Dec 5th, 2005, 01:00 AM       
Topology is ok. But man my multivariable calculus class is kicking me hard. I mean, caculating all those numbers and stuff. Damn hard.

Sorry to hear about you losing to someone who lost to OJB and therefore vicariously to me. Must be rough.
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Old Dec 5th, 2005, 01:33 AM       
Before this becomes a flame war, I thought I'd just point out that I was lightly pointing out a hypocrisy as a friendly chap, and my online friend then helped me out by taking something way too seriously after having "mocked" me for taking things too seriously.

Good thing this is just the philosophy forum, or else my pride would be in serious disrepair.
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Old Dec 5th, 2005, 11:15 AM       
Well, sorry I lied. I did not make it by a computer this weekend. Unfortunately, I've had only long enough to read through what's turning up to be a fun thread. I'll get back to you, though so far there's not a lot to respond to when you throw out baseless assumptions such as I'm some sort of bible thumper that believes in Christian doctrine, dogma or, y'know, Christ.

Your entirely missing proof of anything was quite compelling, though. It's what you don't say, right? :winkwink

When I do get a minute, we'll talk about some of the attempts toward proving Darwinian evolution that were miserable failures. Maybe that'll jog your collective memories. You can pre-empt some of those till I get back if you want, or you could just talk more about how I'm a Neo-Baptist Evangelist that's trying to subliminally convert you all into my trailer park cult. Either way, I'm sure it'll be fun to read...
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Old Dec 5th, 2005, 11:29 AM       
I don't put any stock in those logical proofs, either. Not for evolution, God, so on and so forth. I always thought the guys who try to logically prove anything like that are asking for a kick in the head.
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Old Dec 5th, 2005, 11:55 AM       
So flame war it is.
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Old Dec 5th, 2005, 12:06 PM       
WTF do you want preechr, a nice easy-to-digest sound-byte proof? There is evidence for evolution. The fact that you don't understand it, does not mean it does not exist.

Again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggytrix
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Old Dec 5th, 2005, 12:13 PM       
Quote:
In my book I talk about an evolutionary phenomenon reflecting the human mind's tendency toward sin, that is, concentration of the self over devotion to the community. The entire spectrum is represented in nature, from alpha male lions killing the males juveniles of a pride for sexual primacy, to a worker bee stinging an attacker for the sake of defending the hive.
Freudian anal complexes? Yes.
Alot of this is, especially with community(as in mammals) has to do with the "Strongest" getting all the bitches, it is basically a simple way of breeding genetic strengths while killing off the weak... Of course, it's not guaranteed to work, there's always the chance they could be born with some strange condition that makes them dance funny. It doesn't matter how big you are if you can't dance. Than you just breed a danceless society. Those die out soon enough.
Kings, queens, nobility? Although I'm pretty sure Dawkins speaks against inbreeding. Maybe because part of evolution is the connection of myriad (different) genes? I don't know. Just guessing. But all the same that represents some kind of flawed anal-evolution, societally. Which makes me wonder why he's the inventor of memetics. Somebody "Clarifying" something as serious as evolution, ranting on about societal mal-nourishments?
Does he[Dawkins] assume mammals are more evolved(don't make me clarify this with some kind of jargon) than reptiles, big papa goat? Or does evolution consider that? I guess that would be objectively true, at the very least.

"The point Dawkins was trying to make I think was that genes have a tendency to code for phenotypic traits that result in their (the gene itself) own propogation, not that there is some gene that codes for a phenotypic trait of selfish behavior."

I agree entirely. By it's very nature the seed is meant for sowing, no?

"Why can't I fly?"

If you were dating a woman with crazy terodactyl like wings that threatened to claw you and take you back to it's nest with a tail would you try to have sex with it? Okay than.

"And from a genetic reproductive stadnpoint, a colony of social insects can really best be considered a signle organism"

I agree, that's why I was bringing up the anal stages, those are generally considered entirely mammalian; not even reptiles have it which you can see by their mating habits. They are purely fight and flight characteristic. Which brings me back to teradactyl woman. See? She wouldn't even want to have sex with you, she'd just want you to fertilize her eggs and bring her food, than she'd go die in a desolate cave after being struck by some autoimmune disease or falling into a river.

"Is there any way to truly prove how old the earth is? "

Yes? I mean, unless all the ways we have to test things is wrong, but for the most part it seems pretty observable and even seems to be in accordance with religious predictions(egypt was in the bible, afterall). Of course, the hilarious thing is that supposedly the book of Genesis was actually from syria which is a culture founded around the time the Egyptian culture was founded. Which is speculated to be pretty far back, and the original syrian genesis tablets supposedly say the world has been around for a long long time. Of course, religious experts would describe it as mythology. Other people might even describe it as bullshit. But if you read genesis it seems to go further back than just a couple thousand. That's just by going by cultures other than Christian influenced, and I'm sure by alot of Christians as well, though.
What is the approximate year religious experts say the world was created?

"That's a good perspective. If there is a God would it not be possible that he doesn't intervene in everyday activities and instead life moves on through natural selection and what works."

Sure. While we're at it why don't we just stop assuming God is a person and start assuming God is just the whole of the functioning world around us. Obviously if he was just the functioning world around us, he would be omniscient(he'd know all the knowledge we know, because we know it-- even what is false, because it's in the universe), omnipotent and omnipresent(he is everything in the whole universe right??). Then evolution is just a part of God, part of his body. But you know, what do I know. He's just omnipresent.
According to some sources, though, God isn't even here. Why else would we goto heaven to be in union with God? But then God has what, ten different names? Maybe there's different Gods who are all the same God but are God's of different places or levels of existance/consciousness. That would probably put it in contrast with all the other religions in the world and even with many forms of science. The father, the son and the holy ghost or some such bullshit could maybe be used as an example.


I met mescalito last night. MESCALITO DOME DECREE. I didn't fall asleep until like five in the morning. Godspeed and neurosis are the best music when you're entering the realms of the unreal with Henry Darger.

Good morning.
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Old Dec 5th, 2005, 01:08 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
If you were dating a woman with crazy terodactyl like wings that threatened to claw you and take you back to it's nest with a tail would you try to have sex with it? Okay than.
HELLS YEA MAN SHE COULD FUCKIN FLY. WED BE ALL DOIN IT IN THE SKY AND SHIZNIT.
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Old Dec 5th, 2005, 01:33 PM       
"HELLS YEA MAN SHE COULD FUCKIN FLY. WED BE ALL DOIN IT IN THE SKY AND SHIZNIT."

And you sir will be the man who makes man capable of flight. Before you not one man has found himself attracted to pterydactyl woman. Thank God, now we can all be hideously deformed, or your children can be hunted for sport and money. Preferably the later the economy needs a little boost.
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Old Dec 5th, 2005, 02:52 PM       
Tales From the Darkside: The Movie (segment: Lover's Vow)

Rae Dawn Chong as sexy terradactyl monster!

FIFTEEN YEARS AGO!
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Old Dec 5th, 2005, 07:32 PM       
This sounds like a movie Italian Stereotype would enjoy.
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Old Dec 6th, 2005, 12:42 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggytrix
WTF do you want preechr, a nice easy-to-digest sound-byte proof? There is evidence for evolution. The fact that you don't understand it, does not mean it does not exist.

Again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggytrix
Yes, the obvious assumption to be made here is that I'm just too dumb to have understood any of that. Why is it that when I complain of a lack of enough time to even respond to posts you expect me to have ridden off on your 50 page tangent apparently delving completely into the mysteries of vestigal limbs in animals, which though titled in such a way as to appear to be proof of evolution, actually seems to a non-believer to be much more like evidence that some parts of biological structures seem similar? You ask if I want a summary? What is so hard about typing out: "Many bone structures of reptiles, birds, fish and mammals are similar, which indicates that all creatures share common ancestry." ??

The difference is that phrasing your comment more like my suggestion would be too much like something you'd find in an actual discussion, right?

I spent about 10 minutes skimming the website you googled up. Is my summary somewhat correct? The parts about fossils of many separate types of animals showing evolution from, like, a reptile to a bird are potentially fascinating... but I wonder why I'm expected to take it on faith that these parts of the fossil record prove so clearly that these various boxes of bones are what they are represented to be.

Believe it or not, I am somewhat capable of reading things. I can read stuff from one side of this argument that says something along the lines of: A Supreme Being created the universe and everything in it according to His Grand Design in 7 days. Trust Me... and then I read stuff from the other side of the argument that says essentially that the universe and all the stuff one might find within it just sort of happened over time for no particular reason... and then it seems a lot like that's followed up up with an eerily similar: Trust me.

Honestly, I expected a bit more from the latter side. While the former exists in a realm of human thought that precludes empirical reality on it's first page, the realm of Science at least in my understanding was supposed to be more tangible. Could you google me up a web page that presents common descent in such a way as to convince a skeptic? I'd do it, but I've always failed at that for some strange reason.

Yeah, maybe I'm unfairly skeptical. I'd love to join your religion, but I'm afraid I'll need a little evidence that you are in fact onto something here. Mostly, I've been told that since so many other people that are much smarter than me believe it, it must be so. I've yet to see a clear illustration that these are actually facts that we are discussing here. Darwinian evolution has been taught to children as fact since the sixties. Why is it so damn hard for an adult to see what's supposed to be so well-documented and proven? Holders of Marketing Degrees with an IQ of 75 can put together Power Point presentations... Is there a reason smart scientists cannot put together a web page that makes me say: Wow! They're right!

My point in this thread is NOT to convince any of you that God created the world or that He or She exists or that you should send me money so that I can finish my church on the Moon. My point is that evolutionism SEEMS to be as much a leap of faith as is creationism, and I'm asking for help from those of you who are obviously intellligent enough to have approached this subject at one point as skeptics and were convinced by facts. What's so wrong with asking for summarized data? This has been acknowledged as FACT for 50 years now by the scientific community at large. What's with the "Trust me?" Doesn't that seem odd to you guys?

Let me be clear that I have not one time posted that I believe creationism or intelligent design to be superior to evolutionism. I have consistently maintained that they are, or at least appear to be, on equal footing as they all require the belief in something that I cannot see. Because creationism and intelligent design both stem from Theology, I'm fine with that. I cannot forgive science for similar behavior, however. Evolutionists NEED to sit down and win this fight concretely or else they need to admit that they cannot and concede that any other theories are equally possible.

For me, and this is why I'm actually interested in this debate at all, I see this as a moral issue. There are very specific ramifications for the different types of thought produced within society from the basis of each of these theories, and I have my preferences. I am looking at this debate from a third person point of view, not as one invested in either side. When I see those purporting to be men of science, facts and logic behaving just as petulantly and suspiciously as any other mystic, I question it.

The fact that none of you has even yet considered answering my questions openly, preferring instead to make me into a character and attack that, hints to me that you've never actually tried to be skeptical of evolution yourselves.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Dec 6th, 2005, 12:52 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
Why do you even pretend to debate if you have no inclination on at least listening? At the very least he offered evidence, all you offer is rhetoric that's not even yours.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Dec 6th, 2005, 01:06 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
I don't generally believe things because everyone else believes in them. But you're welcome to, while we're at it why don't we travel back in time to nazi germany. Alot of people believed killing lots of jews was Okay, so it must be okay and also true. Sanctioned by God. ...
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Dec 6th, 2005, 01:09 PM       
"A Supreme Being created the universe and everything in it according to His Grand Design in 7 days."

And here's the box of bones of the supreme beings supreme creationist hand.

kahljorn wrote:
Why do you even pretend to debate if you have no inclination on at least listening? At the very least he offered evidence, all you offer is rhetoric that's not even yours.
"I agree entirely. By it's very nature the seed is meant for sowing, no? Wink "

I agreed with him, jackass. Learn to read. In fact, I agreed with just about everyone on everything they said, all I did was add my own thoughts to it. Thanks for ruining a beautiful thing though.

P.S. Do you have penis envy or something? If not, why are you hounding(not quite hounding yet, maybe puppying?) me thread to thread trying to prove me wrong with stuff that doesn't even apply?

At this point I'm guessing none of this applies to me. Sorry for my above words.
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Old Dec 6th, 2005, 01:20 PM       
Um, huh?
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

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Old Dec 6th, 2005, 01:46 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preechr
Yes, the obvious assumption to be made here is that I'm just too dumb to have understood any of that. Why is it that when I complain of a lack of enough time to even respond to posts you expect me to have ridden off on your 50 page tangent apparently delving completely into the mysteries of vestigal limbs in animals, which though titled in such a way as to appear to be proof of evolution, actually seems to a non-believer to be much more like evidence that some parts of biological structures seem similar? You ask if I want a summary? What is so hard about typing out: "Many bone structures of reptiles, birds, fish and mammals are similar, which indicates that all creatures share common ancestry." ??
Look, asshole. That's the evidence. Your summary is trite, as would be any sound-byte summary of fucking VOLUMES of scientific research. If you don't like it or think that I'm somehow relying on a blind faith, as opposed to a sincere trust in the scientific community, since I haven't read nor can I succinctly summarize every damn thesis written on the topic, well you can just kiss my ass.
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Old Dec 6th, 2005, 01:48 PM       
I still can't tell if he's applying that to me or using my glorious words against you guys
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Old Dec 6th, 2005, 02:14 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
I still can't tell if he's applying that to me or using my glorious words against you guys
I honestly didn't think you could have taken it any other way... certainly not as an attack on you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggytrix
Look, asshole. That's the evidence. Your summary is trite, as would be any sound-byte summary of fucking VOLUMES of scientific research. If you don't like it or think that I'm somehow relying on a blind faith, as opposed to a sincere trust in the scientific community, since I haven't read nor can I succinctly summarize every damn thesis written on the topic, well you can just kiss my ass.
Am I being that hostile to you? ...or is what I'm asking just making you feel attacked?

That was pretty snide... not that I'm erasing it, just acknowledging it. Sorry.

To put a much finer point on it, your above post basically says that you looked into the subject and, at a certain point, decided to start trusting the scientists, right? Is that fair? I seriously am not trying to color your words or disparage you in any way...

My follow up question would be at what point was that. What did you have to hear that made you think: Yep, I'm buying this now.

I ask because I've not heard it, whatever it is, yet.
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Old Dec 6th, 2005, 02:23 PM       
If you type in, "Evidence for evolution" you'll find like a billion things. Even the "Best evidence against evolution". I typed it up and found something about how(supposidely) humans in pre-birth go through various states, including one where they develop gills, then a tail and then a fur lining.
Why should something like that occur at all? Apparantly they really serve no purpose.
According to the same webpage, many animals have bones and often even organs that serve absolutely no purpose except to apparantly prove evolution.

http://www.txtwriter.com/Backgrounde...Vcontents.html

Also, since we now have the power of GENETICULOUSIS we can apparantly see the similarity between organisms that were thought to be closely related. For example, I believe the genetic difference between humans and apes(or wherever we came from) is something like two genes
I believe there are alot of other genetic "Evidences" that could possibly, at the very least, show you there is evidence towards it.
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Old Dec 6th, 2005, 02:53 PM       
There are also plenty of sources for ideas that attempt to refute evolution... believe it or not without even referencing a Bible!

Since you were so kind as to provide a helpful example, I'll give you one from the other side of the fence: Darwin said that his theory would be proven false if we found evidence of organisms that are irreducibly complex. Through the not so new wonders of microscopes, we can observe the inner workings of individual cells and note that the complex activity in those little buggers could not have evolved through natural selection.

The intregal mechanisms of a cell function together similarly to the individual citizens of a little town, but where each member is vital to the survival of the whole community. The cell itself really only reproduces itself as a whole, and each little citizen is responsible for a small portion of this overall goal. How did that evolve?

There are a lot more examples to be found. I can use google as well as anyone else. My problem is that I have not yet found the proof I need to believe that evolution is no more than a religion for atheists and agnostics. I've so far been told that science is not about proof, but I've read scientific stuff that left me pretty convinced that some science is very much about finding out facts.
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Old Dec 6th, 2005, 03:00 PM       
I did already say, BTW, but I suppose it bears repeating in light of your choice in links, that hardly no one refutes natural selection as a means of evolution within a species (or is it genus, I dunno...)

The term I heard that I'm liking to use here as the source of controversy is gonna be "common descent." The idea is that we all evolved along with all other life from the same single celled animal. That is very different.

Just a possibly unnecessary point of clarification.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Dec 6th, 2005, 03:04 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preechr
To put a much finer point on it, your above post basically says that you looked into the subject and, at a certain point, decided to start trusting the scientists, right? Is that fair? I seriously am not trying to color your words or disparage you in any way...
Basically. I studied chemistry and physics a lot in college before switching over to computer science, so I have a great deal of respect for the scientific method and for shared knowledge of academia. I do NOT have a doctorate in Biology, but I'm willing to grant that there is not some vast conspiracy amongst Biology professors to trick all the Jesus crispies into believing in dinosaurs and cavemen.

Did you know that every single living thing is made of Adenine, Thymine, Guanine, Cytosine, and Uracil arranged in different patterns. Have you ever studied DNA (and RNA)? To me, it is the most compelling evidence for common origin evolution. But my understanding of cell and molecular biology is not sufficient to explain it properly, and certainly not sufficient to use as an argument to someone not genuinely interested in understanding it.
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Old Dec 6th, 2005, 03:13 PM       
Lemme go back to the thing you said that really put me in a hostile position toward your "argument".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preechr
then I read stuff from the other side of the argument that says essentially that the universe and all the stuff one might find within it just sort of happened over time for no particular reason... and then it seems a lot like that's followed up up with an eerily similar: Trust me.
No, it isn't. If you don't trust the findings of any scientific endeavor, you are more than welcome to do your own research, using any existing research available to support your findings, and to submit it to the PLoS Biology journal. It's your total failure to grasp the difference between my trust in a changing, living scientific community and some zealot's faith in an immutable ancient scripture that really puts me off.

So yeah, fuck you buddy.
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Old Dec 6th, 2005, 04:19 PM       
Yep. I've heard the simplicity and complexity of genetics can also work against the idea of common descent. I am in no way unmotivated to understand this or anything else. I am asking to be made to understand. My threshold for acceptance and belief is just as high on this, however, as it is for religious ideas.

Does my contention ring true at all to you that the Goliath of Science, based in actual facts, shouldn't be still going toe to toe with the David of Religion on this? The biggest black eye that evolutionism has is that it has yet to find a way to silence it's critics that are based in ignorance and superstitious ideas.

Is there any other science that is so controversial on the existence level? I mean, sure there's moral controversy on some stuff, but nobody's really running around doubting the Big Bang, planet orbits, black holes, dinosaurs, cloning, genetics or just about anything else regarded as scientific fact. Isn't that odd?

String theory and other nebulous ideas on the fringes are always referred to as controversial ideas... is this where the theory of common descent belongs?
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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