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Geggy Geggy is offline
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Old Nov 17th, 2005, 01:14 PM        Tamiflu warning
12 childen have died in result of, not bird flu, but the tamiflu. Oh the irony.

http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jh...rc=ActiveBuddy
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Old Nov 17th, 2005, 02:42 PM       
I have no doubt in my mind the tamiflu drug was the result of the death of 12 kids. Of course the drug company are going to deny these things. Imagine what would happen if tamiflu were indeed the cause of the deaths? They'd have to discontinue and pull out the drug of every pharmacy. It would be a distaster to the economy. Plus FDA would face legal troubles, they'd get their asses sued, etc...

Thoughts?
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Old Nov 17th, 2005, 03:08 PM       
I don't know if you know this, but more people die from general medical maltreatment than any diseases. I forget the word for illnesses caused by doctors, but there's a certain word. It's the nature of the medicinal field that medications are sometimes worse for you than the disease. For example, there's a syndrome, i believe called rene's syndrome that results from taking asprin when you have a fever(generally in young children). It's pretty serious; it can cause coma, death, retardation and many other things. My girlfriend worked for a place that takes care of crazies and 'slow folk, one of her clients had that happen to her. She was schizophrenic and brain damaged. All from asprin, something you might not think of as dangerous.
And children are just that much more succeptable to medications than adults.

Anyway, i forgot to add: This isn't a big surprise.
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Old Nov 17th, 2005, 03:47 PM       
Did you know that Rumsfeld was the CEO of the company that makes Tamiflu? Wanna make a guess on how much money that fuck has made since the "bird flu" scare started?
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Old Nov 17th, 2005, 04:31 PM       
The food and drug industry is one of the most corrupt of all government faculties, not just because of sheer corruption but because of the fact that they are profiting off of our health. There's not one medication that doesn't have listed side-effects. There's alot of conditions that arise because of medicinal complications.

Vaccines are known to cause horrible sicknesses(after all, it is essentially a form of illness that has been weakened so your body has the upper-hand on it), I have a grandfather who died from the flu shot or something. I know someone who got epilepsy from taking certain anti-psychotics(not that she wasn't fucked up before hand, but the epilepsy was from the medicine).

The word I was looking for was Iatrogenic, if you look it up you'll probably find a wealth of information about diseases and illnesses caused by doctors. Diabetes(the bad version of it) is supposed to be caused by an illness, supposedly from inoculations, that ends up harming the pancreas.
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Old Nov 17th, 2005, 05:14 PM       
I remember seeing a crawl on CNN that said "Bird flu could kill many millions in asia and americas, may affaect global economy" and thinking about how fucking dumb the people who allowed that to crawl by must be.
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Old Nov 18th, 2005, 10:26 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
The food and drug industry is one of the most corrupt of all government faculties, not just because of sheer corruption but because of the fact that they are profiting off of our health. There's not one medication that doesn't have listed side-effects. There's alot of conditions that arise because of medicinal complications.
that explains why my grandmother had 20 bottles of different prescribed medication in her medicine cabinet. It all started with medication for her arthritis.

i also wonder if they use cheap and unsafe chemical substances to mix along with other ingredient in vaccine and pills and sell them at an outrageous price.

UPDATE: FDA concludes Tamiflu is not the result of the deaths

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...LU-TAMIFLU.xml

Something reeks. It did not explain what caused the 12 children to die. The article also contradicted the facts in the paragraph which stated whether or not if they should put warning labels on Tamiflu packages.
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Old Nov 18th, 2005, 10:30 AM       
geggy, quit saying "result" when you mean "cause" - it makes you look like an idiot.
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Old Nov 18th, 2005, 11:02 AM       
lay off him on that. he learned english just from reading, i'm assuming. so far, i think he's done an amazing job.
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Old Nov 18th, 2005, 11:17 AM       
maybe my sarcasm detector is on the blink.
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Old Nov 18th, 2005, 11:40 AM       
whatever, i don't have anything against the guy - quite the contrary. but the difference between the words "result" and "cause" is pretty significant, and he needs to know it if he doesn't want to look stupid.

- side question, is english not geggy's first language?
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Nov 18th, 2005, 12:58 PM       
"that explains why my grandmother had 20 bottles of different prescribed medication in her medicine cabinet. It all started with medication for her arthritis."

Yes, often times they prescribe medicine to counter the side-effects of another medicine. The medicine to combat the old medicine often has side-effects, which needs more medicine. For example, the person I know who has epilepsy on top of anti-psychotics had to take epilepsy medicine and pain medicine. Both of those have side-effects, besides the fact that too many pills can cause liver failure.
From my understanding, EVERY medicine has side-effects; when it lists no side-effects it just means that it's so new none have been found yet. Alot of medicines start out with no side-effects, and generally has them added on as things move along. It's a self-perpetuating economical ploy for money; "Hey, that old pill has too many bad side-effects. Do you want that? You could get extra sick! try this new pill that has no side-effects and only costs 50 dollars more."
Even herbal medications have side-effects to be considered, and any good doctor would take those into mind before prescribing(but they never do).

"i also wonder if they use cheap and unsafe chemical substances to mix along with other ingredient in vaccine and pills and sell them at an outrageous price."

I couldn't say for sure because I have no knowledge of this, but i wouldn't be surprised. I can ask someone I know who knows a rather lot about pharmacuticals, though.
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Old Nov 18th, 2005, 02:11 PM       
i believe his L1 is ASL.
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Old Nov 27th, 2005, 10:22 AM       
You're a sweetheart for trying to defend me but ziggy's right. He's correcting my grammer error and I respect that. If I want to impresss people with big words and colorful language, I'd proofread, edit and revise. Otherwise, get use to it, you fags.

Actually, deafspeak is my primrary language. While it's impossible to speak asl, I'm the living proof that can speak asl. You might notice some words I say are misplaced in some sentences.

Kahl, you seem to know a lot about meds...what gives?
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Old Nov 27th, 2005, 10:39 AM       
Kahl's probably taken every medicine there is to take.

If a drug fucks up one in a million people, but helps the other 999,999 it is NOT worth getting all upset over it. Sucks to be that one person, but I'd rather have medicine than nothing at all.
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Old Nov 27th, 2005, 11:10 AM       
Kahl, you sound like a lunatic. Learn a bit about basic epidemiology and statistics before you start talking out of your ass again.
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Old Nov 27th, 2005, 12:49 PM       
Yea I'm pretty sure that statistic is that more people die from restrictions to medicines than from any sickness or disease.

People often word it that the FDA kills more people than it saves which is maybe where you got that from?
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Old Nov 28th, 2005, 02:54 PM       
I'm not saying that medicine doesn't help people, what I'm saying is that medicine is not necessarily productive to a healthy life. I'm fat, I'll get surgery or take pills to get skinny instead of exercise or stop eatting mcdonalds. Is that healthy? I'm depressed, I'll get pills instead of learning to deal with it. Is that healthy? My leg hurts sometimes, I'll take pills to make the pain go away. Is that healthy?
Fuck, people need to learn to exercise and eat properly. I'm willing to bet that alot of health problems are caused by bad nutrition.
Remember, the FDA is the FOOD and DRUG industry.

"If a drug fucks up one in a million people, but helps the other 999,999 it is NOT worth getting all upset over it. Sucks to be that one person, but I'd rather have medicine than nothing at all."

The ratio is a lot different than that, like I was saying there is a WORD for this. Go read up on it. The only reason I target the fda is because it is in charge of our "health" and yet they really take no action other than to prescribe medicine.
Medicine that is taken daily is widely known to shorten your life. Sure, it has the capability to help some. Did I say it didn't?
Most iatrogenic illnesses aren't necessarily caused by pills, but alot of them are. There was a study not long ago that certain (popular) anti-depressants actually INCREASED the chances of suicide in teenagers. I found that hilarious and quite ironic. Estrogens are known to cause blood clots that travel to the heart and kill people, and are also known to fuck up people's ovaries. My girlfriend was prescribed estrogen as a diabetic(which you aren't supposed to receive) and it made it so she has two, sometimes three, periods within one month. That is pretty iatrogenic, how could they miss the fact that she's diabetic?
EVERY medicine has an adverse effect, whether it's just harming your liver or making you mentally retarded. If it didn't have an adverse effect, people wouldn't be taking it to try to get healthy by trying to rewire their insides. Fact is, medicines fuck with the functioning of the body and often it's chemical balance(which is, again, why people take it). That is a very delicate thing, and not really designed to be trifled with by people who don't understand everything about it. Would you prescribe someone medicine if you didn't understand everything about it and them? Just think on that.

here's something to feast your eyes on, since it's a "Study" and all:

Iatrogenesis is a major phenomenon, and a severe risk to patients. A study carried out in 1981 "found that 36% of 815 consecutive patients on a general medical service of a university hospital had an iatrogenic illness. In 9% of all persons admitted, the incident was considered major in that it threatened life or produced considerable disability. In 2% of the 815 patients, the iatrogenic illness was believed to contribute to the death of the patient. Exposure to drugs was a particularly important factor in determining which patients had complications." (Steel et al., 1981). In another study, done in 101 adverse iatrogenic events in 84 patients, "the most commonly reported process of care problems were inadequate evaluation of the patient (16.4%), failure to monitor or follow up (12.7%), and failure of the laboratory to perform a test (12.7%)." (Weingart et al., 2000).

While those problems aren't necessarily directly related to the FDA or pills, it's easy to see how they could arise from them.
I've heard before that in hawaii the health system is completely different. Rather than paying when you are sick, you pay when you are healthy. Why? Because the doctor's job is to keep you healthy, not to make you sick. I really like that idea.

I'll post something later about nutrition, perhaps, because I find it more productive than medicine-- although I can still see the relevancy of taking pills. Personally, though, I feel that before prescribing pills for minor illnesses that have little to no effect, one should at least try to live healthy. No point in taking pills if you're still going to live unhealthy. Unless, of course, you are using medicine as a means to live slothfully. Then there's plenty of points, right?

Maybe I'll post more later, I'm kind of tired right now. One last question though, how many pills actually CURE diseases or illnesses, rather than just restrain them?
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Nov 28th, 2005, 03:01 PM       
By the way, I don't know if I mentioned this but... alot of anti-psychotics have these little booklets that come with them to explain how they work and their side-effects(all medicines do) and formost anti-psychotics inside the booklet it comes with it clearly states that they don't know how it works. That's right. Medicine that has an unknown effect being prescribed to people world-wide. I first learned about this in a mental institution from one of the nurses when I asked what the medicine they were giving to me did.
Does that push any buttons at all?
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Old Nov 28th, 2005, 03:19 PM       
Kahl, anti-medication rants are a slippery slope to Scientology.

BEWARE! BEWARE!
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Old Nov 28th, 2005, 03:24 PM       
lol.

Yea, unlike scientologists, though, I feel medicines are in fact useful but should be used with caution and only after safer alternatives have been exhausted.
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Old Nov 28th, 2005, 03:41 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
medicines are in fact useful but should be used with caution and only after safer alternatives have been exhausted.
Should it come as a surprise that this is also the viewpoint expressed by the psychiatric community at large? Or are you saying that "safe" alternatives should be tried regardless of efficacy?
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Old Nov 28th, 2005, 05:50 PM       
"Should it come as a surprise that this is also the viewpoint expressed by the psychiatric community at large?"

lol. I happen to know from experience this isn't true at all. Do you know how the "psychiatric community" actually functions, especially as far as medicine goes? "Hmm, this and this sound like this, so we'll give them this pill and see if it helps.. if not we'll give them another!". Situations like that occur often.
I happen to know for a fact that they prescribe medicine without knowing exactly what kind of a condition you have. I was prescribed three medicines: mood stablizer, anti-psychotic and an anti-depressant the first day I walked into a mental institution. Same thing has happened at others. Without having analyzed me for an extensive period how could they have possibly known? I'm sure they did it for "Everyone's safety" or something like that, but all the same it completely voids everything you just said.

For the most part, psychiatry is a very loose science in the first place... how can you ever really know what's going on in a person's mind except externally? That right there is enough to support what I'm saying.

I could walk to any mental health facility and get medicine right now without showing i have any real conditions. Just like I could goto a doctor and pretend I have extreme shoulder pains and get pain medication. I could also goto a grocery store and buy pain medication that has just as many side-effects as prescribed medicine.

You're stupid.

"Or are you saying that "safe" alternatives should be tried regardless of efficacy?"

How do you know the efficacy, did you read the part where i said medicines are good in the right circumstances, and did you know that an improper diet can cause certain mental illnesses? Shit, not excercising or getting sun is known to cause depression. Those are alot safer than prescribing suicidal anti-suicide pills just because someone's lazy.

I don't know why idiots like you always think everything I say is going to be true in every possible situation in a million universes, but it's annoying and trite. What are you, children? Learn to read, then maybe develop some kind of common sense to figure things out on your own, you mindless fuck.

I don't hold any support to this claim, however:

"Some have considered many of the more elaborate forms of mental illness to be iatrogenic, recently including dissociative identity disorder, formerly known as multiple personality disorder, and recovered memory syndrome. According to this belief, patients in therapy, who may initially have depression or post-traumatic stress disorder, respond to suggestion by the therapist by filling in the other expected symptoms of these disorders. This is why critics of dissociative identity disorder claim that the vast number of such case are found by just a few psychiatrists and psychologists."

What exactly is your idea of a "Safe" alternative? Because my idea of it is to actually try to get a person healthy. Once a person's body is actually functioning properly they can usually manage to heal themselves.
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Old Dec 22nd, 2005, 12:20 PM       
Yeah yeah call me a thread bumper for all you want...I just found this article related to this subject that i thought was interesting...

Tamiflu found ineffective in bird flu treatment
Updated Wed. Dec. 21 2005 11:08 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

The drug most of the world is counting on to prevent an avian flu pandemic may not be a failsafe defence, according to a New England Journal of Medicine report.

The authors say they have found evidence the H5N1 virus can mutate into a form unaffected by Tamiflu -- rendering the world's ever-growing stockpiles of the drug ineffective if the mutated strain were to spread.

According to the study, completed by Dr. Menno de Jong at the Hospital for Tropical Diseases in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam, four out of eight avian flu patients who were given the medication died despite the treatment.

This has many health care experts worried, since many predict bird flu will be the world's next major pandemic.

Toronto infectious disease consultant Dr. Neil Rau says the study has serious implications.

"Here you have the optimal situations, the right dose, the right duration, the right timing and administration and yet you have a bad outcome. That's not a good thing to see," Rau told CTV News.

The drug's maker, Swiss firm Roche AG, said it's trying to figure out why it doesn't work in some patients, and is looking at whether severe cases should be given a higher dose or longer duration of treatment.

Another article in the same journal cautions doctors against prescribing the drug for patients to stockpile. It says if not administered in a large enough dose, the chemical structure of Tamiflu could allow the virus to develop a resistance to the treatment.

Dr. Allison McGeer thinks this should remind doctors and researchers to keep looking for new solutions.

"There's one other drug, GlaxoSmithKline's Relenza, that is licensed that people are starting to talk about stockpiling," said McGeer, a Toronto infectious disease microbiologist. "There are also some other drugs in development. It really tells us that we need to move those drugs in development forward as fast as possible."

While drugs such as Tamiflu don't cure bird flu, experts hope they will help reduce its severity if taken early enough.

Bird flu has not yet appeared in North America and there is no proof that it can spread from person to person. But officials worry that if the virus mutates, it could become as contagious as the annual flu, but much more deadly.

Since 2004, the H5N1 virus has killed at least 71 people in Asia. According to figures updated by the World Health Organization on Dec. 16, there have been at least 139 human cases, including 95 this year alone.

More than 200 companies and governments have asked Roche if they can help manufacture Tamiflu. So far, Roche has allowed Indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines to produce the drug without paying compensation. Tamiflu is not patent protected in those countries.

Counterfeits

Now, consumers are starting to have to deal with questions about Tamiflu's authenticity as well as its efficacy.

The Canadian Press report that British authorities have identified 18 websites -- including two in Canada -- selling what they believe are counterfeit products sold under the Tamiflu brand.

But Health Canada spokeswoman Jirina Vlk said the drug supplied by the Canadian sites in question is, in fact, Tamiflu, and not counterfeit medication.

"(British authorities) may think it's counterfeit because it may not meet their labelling (standards), but they're legitimate Roche products," she said.

The other sites the British authorities flagged are based in the U.S., Britain, Switzerland, Bahrain, the Channel Island of Jersey, Cyprus, Singapore and Malta.

The British Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency launched the investigation over concerns that a shortage of the drug in the public market has fueled sales of bogus Tamiflu over the Internet. Test purchases were made from the sites and the drugs are being tested to determine if they are really Tamiflu.

U.S. customs officials recently seized a shipment of counterfeit Tamiflu in San Francisco.

Vlk said even though the Canadian drugs were not counterfeits, would-be Tamiflu buyers should beware.

"Buying drugs from Internet pharmacies that do not provide a street address and telephone number can pose serious concerns. Patients have no way of knowing where the company is located, where it gets its drugs, what is in the drugs, and how to reach the pharmacy if there is a problem,'' she said.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew..._name=&no_ads=
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Old Dec 22nd, 2005, 02:21 PM       
"millions of people will die if we don't make a drug to cure them! let's produce counterfeits for some free money guys it's a party!!!"
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