Israeli Airstrike Kills Hamas Founder

[Zhukov]

It is relevant to everyone, no matter how progressive the people are. Especialy when Sharon is using Palestinian reaction to cut back the gains made by the Israeli workers.

Revolution is not best suited to backwards and right wing countries, quite the opposite.

They are far ahead of us in many ways.

Since the USA has the most reactionary government and working class in the world, I would say that alot of countries are way ahead in terms of 'liberalism'.

[Abcdxxxx]

Burbank : "Israel wants to commit to to full bodied genocide or ethnic cleansing"

Can you prove any violence against Palestinians is ethnically motivated or that Israel has sponsored killings based on religious or racial hatred rather then security. It's not.

Burbank: "Because the Israeli's are the haves and the Palestinians are th have nots."

The perception amongst Israelis and their supporters is that this conflict is between Israel against the entire Arab world NOT just the Palestinians. Who declared war on Israel at it's inception? Hint - It wasn't the Palestinians. If Israel declared a full on war against Palestinians who would they be fighting against? The ENTIRE Arab world. The Palestinians are pawns, and the reals "haves" are their own people. This is why every negotiation with the Palestinians involves bargaining the issue of Israel's recognition by the Arab world.


Zhukov: "The victims of this latest attack, and all others, are the Palestinian and Israeli working people. "

Israel and Zionism was initially founded on Socialist, and Communist principles within a Democratic context. The Israeli working people are responsible for their own security, and this mission you're critical of. As for the Palestinian working class, I can only hope less of them will be blackmailed into blowing themselves up as part of Yassin's Or Rantisi's or Arafat's genocidal dreams.

Zhukov : "Israel will never abandon it's state terrorism, it is against it's own interests. "

What interests are those? Stop hinting and say what you really believe.

Zhukov: " It also serves nicely to justify the wall they are building which cuts right through whole Palestinian communities. "

These communities were never connected in the first place. You're speaking of land that was either A) never inhabited or B) was owned by three different nations. Whatever issues you're speaking of already existed BEFORE any walls. There have never been proper roads connecting these villages...because they were NEVER connected in the first place.

Zhukov: "The Palestinian people will continue to live in a prison house, without jobs, without decent water etc,"

A) unlike Jews, the Palestinians have 21 other countries in the middle east to live in. 70% have chosen Jordanian citizenship. Any "Prison House" is the fault of the Palestinians own autonomous leadership, and the Arab nations who rule their own people with dictatorships and oppression. B) They had jobs inside Israel before the Intifada. Many Arabs hold jobs within Israel, and really why is it Israel's responsibility to employ a nation that claims it's ready for soveriegnty? C) Water? You're going to blame Israel for a water crisis that effects the ENTIRE area? Jews suffer from the same water rationing crisis as Arabs.

Some thoughts:

- Genocide breaches international law, and the leaders of Hamas are responsible for the murder and wounding of thousands of Isrealis, and Americans. Yassin is responsible for the child abuse, and deaths of countless more Palestinians.

- Hamas already escalated the level of attacks when they sent two teenage boys into Ashdod with the intent of releasing a poison cloud over Central Israel.

- This was in preparation of Israel handing over Gaza.

[Brandon]

Why not? Surely the bulldozers, assassination and wall building can be considered forms of terrorism? I am sure that if Osama shot rockets at people from a helicopter, it would be terrorism.

Apples and oranges; the above measures were done in the interest of responding to threats and maintaining some measure of national security. Also remember that, with the exception of assasinating dangerous terrorist leaders like Yassin, the methods you describe are essentially nonviolent.

Don’t you realise that it is not Palestinian leaders that dish out the violence, it is ordinary Palestinian youth who are disenchanted with Israeli oppression, and rightly so.

"This is a crazy and very dangerous act. It opens the door wide to chaos. Yassin is known for his moderation and he was controlling Hamas and therefore this is a dangerous, cowardly act", says Prime Minister Ahmad Quraya.

Sheik Yassin is dead, but violent action will still continue. PM Quraya says he was a moderate, but bloody attacks still occured. Could this be because Palestinian militants realise that no matter what Arafat or some spiritual leader says abouy ending the fight , Israel will continue to oppress.

Just because the Palestinians perceive the Israelis as oppressors doesn't mean they are. Keep in mind that since the founding of Israel, the Israelis have had to fight five or so wars, all in self-defense. They have never been the "aggressors." Oh, and Yassin was no "moderate."

The only alternative is unity between the workers of Israel and Palestine. The strategy for victory is one that combines a democratic leadership of the resistance, (I am a believer in Intifada I, not Intifada II.) genuine armed struggle, a political outlook that appeals to ordinary Israeli workers to fight against their own capitalists, and an internationalist appeal to the Arab workers and youth to rise and overthrow their own governments. That is the only alternative.

Appeasement is never, ever, going to be put forward by the Israeli govt.

I should have known you'd attempt to frame this in terms of Marxism.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

A) unlike Jews, the Palestinians have 21 other countries in the middle east to live in. 70% have chosen Jordanian citizenship. Any "Prison House" is the fault of the Palestinians own autonomous leadership, and the Arab nations who rule their own people with dictatorships and oppression. B) They had jobs inside Israel before the Intifada. Many Arabs hold jobs within Israel, and really why is it Israel's responsibility to employ a nation that claims it's ready for soveriegnty? C) Water? You're going to blame Israel for a water crisis that effects the ENTIRE area? Jews suffer from the same water rationing crisis as Arabs.

Since ABC and I clearly know where each other stand and disagree on this matter, I only want to chime in and agree with him on this point. I am of the opinion that check points and curfews that prevent Palestinians from going to work can only be counter-productive, for both Palestinians who need the work, as well as Israelis who could use the labor. I think both sides have prompted these problems. However, Arabs living WITHIN the Israeli border, regardless of the hardships they may face, still have the highest living standards out of any in the Middle East. The health services, educational services, and civic opportunities that are provide to them in Israel are superior to that of ANY other Arab nation. I think it's erronious to argue that the "Jews" are out to oppress the "Arabs." I for one am all in favor of scrutinizing Israel where they deserve it, but we should remain consistent here. How can we go on rants about "terrorist states" when many of the "Palestinian nationals" are merely people crossing the border from Lebanon and Syria...? And speaking of terrorist states, since we have a PLO, where's the LLO....? Where is the Arab indignation over Syria's treatment of its people? Where is the pan-Arab indignation over occupied Lebanon??? You're right Zukov, some people need to start rising up, but Israel isn't necessarily the only (or even the worst) target.

Some thoughts:

- Genocide breaches international law, and the leaders of Hamas are responsible for the murder and wounding of thousands of Isrealis, and Americans. Yassin is responsible for the child abuse, and deaths of countless more Palestinians.

- Hamas already escalated the level of attacks when they sent two teenage boys into Ashdod with the intent of releasing a poison cloud over Central Israel.

- This was in preparation of Israel handing over Gaza.

Everything you say here is true ABC, however, is this really in the best interest of Israel, or anybody...? How many more civilians will die b/c of this? How many apathetic to moderate leaning Palestinians will now become radicalized by this??? How does taking out the figure head of an umbrella organization, with all of its webs and splinters, make the Israeli people (and for that matter the Palestinian people) any safer....?

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

Everything you say here is true ABC, however, is this really in the best interest of Israel, or anybody...? How many more civilians will die b/c of this? How many apathetic to moderate leaning Palestinians will now become radicalized by this??? How does taking out the figure head of an umbrella organization, with all of its webs and splinters, make the Israeli people (and for that matter the Palestinian people) any safer....?

Well it's like fighting the mafia. There's also the perogative that appeasment is a sign of weakness, viewed as success in the eyes of extremist Arabs that promotes their tactics. Handing over Gaza while Hamas was intact (and feuding with Arafat in Ramallah) would have been a disaster. This shows that nobody is untouchable. Look. there's a huge difference between the first Intifada, and the second...what happened in between? Peace negotiations with the PLO. It fueld the fire, it caused even more people to resort to violence. What positive has it done? It's no secret Israel has lost the popularity contest here. It doesn't matter if Sharon walks on the Temple Mount, or Israel blows up half of Gaza looking for Yassin, Israel's self defense or demonstration of strength isn't going to be popular. Still, why play to these "apathetic palestinians" when these are the same moderates who allowed Hamas to gain a chokehold on their society? How much more escalated can you get?

[mburbank]

Abcdxx; you quote me entirely out of context. I suggest that Israel, if it will not work toward peace despite the fact that they are of course not obliged to do so, despite the fact that they are an injured party, despite their pain and fear, is the erradication or removal of the Palestinians from the lands they currently live in. You can concider this racially motivated or not. I don't think it is, per se. I argue that Israels current approach works to make more Palestinaian terrorists, not less, more people who need to be killed or imprisoned, not less, and eventually leads to the erradication or forcible removal of these people.

Brandon, I think the argument that all action against Terrorists other than violence and death equals appeasement is highly flawed argument. It commits people either to an endless cycle of violence of violence or the assumption that a 'war' on terrorsim can be won.

I believe violence is corrupting. I believe Israeli soldiers driving bolldozers and firing missiles from helicopters may kill their targets, but they damage themselves as well, and every day the bloodshed goes on is another day it gets harder to tell the sides apart. This is American soldiers committed atrocities in Vietnam, because violence damages those who use it, no matter their purpose.

Terrorism can be fought by persuing criminals and imprisoning them. It can be fought economically. And most of all it can be fought by making sure a generation grows up with hope for a better future. Hopeless, humiliated children grow up to be dangerous adults. An enemy who doesn't care if he lives or dies cannot loose. There are fanatical ideoligies all over the world that preach this approach, and they will always have followers, but the rich countries of the world (and yes, Abcdxx, of course I include other Arab nations, if you think I'm a fan of the Arab worlds extremeist approach to religion or politics you've read me utterly wrong.) have responsability not to feed the suffering that fills the coffers and armies of these fanatics.
Why does it fall to us? Because we can never kill them all.

Blood feuds only end three ways. Everyone dead on one side, everyone dead on both sides, or when one side ends the cycle of retalliation. I don't see that as appeasement, and I'm not suggesting abandoning the fight against terrorist anymore than I'd tell the police not to arrest murderers.

But if the police blew murders to bits and took bystanders with them, I'd think it was counterproductive. And if my child was unfortunate enough to die in the execution of even mass murderer, I wouldn't call it justice. If I'd been hurt enough, I might even take up arms against the police myself for know other reason than despair and vengance.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

So much for cutting off snake heads, and all other clever analogies....

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/23/in...rint&position=

March 23, 2004
Hamas Names Hard-line Figure as New Leader in Gaza
By GREG MYRE

ERUSALEM, March 23 — Hamas named one of its most outspoken and hard-line figures, Abdel Aziz Rantisi, as the new leader of the Islamic movement in the Gaza Strip today following the killing of the group's founder, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, on Monday.

Also, senior Israeli security officials said top Hamas leaders would continue to be targets for attack as part of an ongoing campaign against Palestinians linked to violence against Israel.

"Everyone is in our sights," said Tzachi Hanegbi, Israel's minister of internal security. "There is no immunity for anyone."

Dr. Rantisi, a pediatrician in his mid-50's, was chosen in the wake of Israel's helicopter missile strike that killed Sheik Yassin early Monday in Gaza City.

Dr. Rantisi does not have the stature of Sheik Yassin, who established the group in 1987. However, Mr. Rantisi is the most visible and fiery Hamas spokesman, well known from the frequent interviews he gives.

With Dr. Rantisi leading Hamas in its Gaza stronghold, the group is expected to push hard to carry out bombings and other attacks.

However, Khaled Mashaal, a Hamas leader based in Syria, remains the head of the group's political bureau, the main decision-making body, news agencies reported.

Dr. Rantisi has been a senior figure in Hamas for years, and was wounded in an Israeli helicopter attack last June.

In a group defined by its extreme positions, Dr. Rantisi is known as the Hamas leader who issues the most vitriolic statements. He opposes any form of compromise with Israel.

After Sheik Yassin's death, Dr. Rantisi declared an "open war" with Israel.

"Inside Palestine, there will be no security for the Zionists and Jews," he said Monday.

Dr. Rantisi spent years imprisoned in Israel. And the Palestinian Authority, which he frequently criticizes, jailed him for about two years in the late 1990's.

He is one of several senior members in the group's political bureau.

Israel, however, says it does not distinguish between the "political" and "military" wings of Hamas.

Israeli officials say that Sheik Yassin, Dr. Rantisi and other senior figures have guided the group's suicide bombing campaign even if they have not planned the details of specific attacks.

The killing brought Israel a deluge of international criticism and Palestinian groups called for a new wave of attacks.

Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei traveled from the West Bank to Gaza to take part in a memorial service for Mr. Yassin today. Hamas is a political rival of the Fatah movement, headed by the Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat and Mr. Qurei, but the parties have set aside their differences, at least temporarily.

"It is such an ugly crime committed by this government of murders, it is the Israeli government that assassinated this symbol of resistance," Mr. Qurei said. "We are witnessing today, here in his memorial, the unity of the Palestinian people."

Israel, meanwhile, said it would press on with its current offensive in Gaza, which began a week ago in response to a double suicide bombing by the Palestinians that killed 10 Israelis.

"If we will continue, in a determined way, with our strikes against Hamas and other terror groups, with the means I outlined, including action against those leaders, we will bring more security to Israeli citizens," said Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz.

Israeli security officials acknowledged that Sheik Yassin's killing could energize the Palestinian factions. But they say that Hamas and other groups are already attempting to carry out as many attacks as possible.

Despite fears to stepped-up violence, the region was relatively quiet today.

The most serious incident was in the central Gaza Strip, where Palestinian militants fired a rocket at an Israeli armored vehicle near the Jewish settlement of Netzarim, the military said.

The militants also lobbed mortar at the settlement, but there were no injuries in either incident.

In Israel, police tightened security and there was a marked decline in the number of people taking buses and visiting crowded public places.

In Jerusalem, police vehicles and officers were present at bus stops on busy routes, and the police set up additional checkpoints at main entrances into the city.
###

[Ronnie Raygun]

JEWS! JEWS! JEWS!

GOOOOOOOO!

JEWS!

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by mburbank

Brandon, I think the argument that all action against Terrorists other than violence and death equals appeasement is highly flawed argument. It commits people either to an endless cycle of violence of violence or the assumption that a 'war' on terrorsim can be won.

Ok, fair enough; my argument did seem a little like I was opposed to anything other than killing any and all terrorists outright, but I was merely saying that I don't have any moral outrage toward the Israeli government for killing Yassin. My point, basically, is that the approach to terrorism should always be one of strict law enforcement and/or military action and never appeasement or negotiation.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Raygun

JEWS! JEWS! JEWS!

GOOOOOOOO!

JEWS!

Speaking of the Jews, what is it exactly that happens to the Jews in the Bible when God comes back and all....? I mean, I've wondered why Christian zealots and anti-semites like Pat Robertson have jumped to the aid of Israel, but maybe you, Ronnie, can explain it to us.......?

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

Speaking of the Jews, what is it exactly that happens to the Jews in the Bible when God comes back and all....? I mean, I've wondered why Christian zealots and anti-semites like Pat Robertson have jumped to the aid of Israel, but maybe you, Ronnie, can explain it to us.......?

Maybe you could explain why the hard left has jumped to the aid of extremist Islamic theocrats.

[Ronnie Raygun]

He can't.

[Zhukov]

Maybe you could explain why the hard left has jumped to the aid of extremist Islamic theocrats.

Am I the 'hard Left'? Or am I the far, ultra, or extreme Left?

Yassin was no "moderate."

Compared to the blokes under him, I think this guy should have been considered a pacifist.

"Hamas Names Hard-line Figure as New Leader in Gaza"

Also, remember that Yassin was a "spiritual" leader, ie, he didn’t plan military attacks or set specific targets. This doesn’t mean he is a nice guy.

Keep in mind that since the founding of Israel, the Israelis have had to fight five or so wars, all in self-defence. They have never been the "aggressors."

This really has nothing to do with what anybody has said. Israel has never been an aggressor in a war, I agree with you 110%. You have to look at why those wars were started if you want to try to make it relevant.

Apples and oranges; the above measures were done in the interest of responding to threats and maintaining some measure of national security. Also remember that, with the exception of assassinating dangerous terrorist leaders like Yassin, the methods you describe are essentially non-violent.

Not that it matters. Blowing up buildings can be considered non-violent as long as it is to destroy the building and not to slay infidels. The interest of responding to threat and maintaining some measure of national security???

Hands up those that think Israel's a safer place tonight?

Seriously AB, Israel uses methods which cause terror in Palestinians, in my eyes, this is terrorism. They are not maintaining security, they are ensuring future attacks.

Israel and Zionism was initially founded on Socialist, and Communist principles within a Democratic context.

Are you talking about Moses Hess, who was an associate in his youth of Marx and Engels?

I don't consider Herzl or Jabotinsky to have socialist or communist principles, (these are the only guys I know) so you will have to walk me through what you mean.

What I mean when I say the Israeli working people are victims is that they are now dreading the terror attacks that are destined to follow an assassination. I think many Israelis will stay at home istead of going to cafes, or will keep their children out of school just to be safe.

What I mean when I say the Palestinians are victims is this:

As for the Palestinian working class, I can only hope less of them will be blackmailed into blowing themselves up as part of Yassin's Or Rantisi's or Arafat's genocidal dreams.

and also they are going to get any remaining houses destroyed, people arrested, "collateral damage" whatever. In other words, the cycle will continue with both Israeli and Palestinian people feeling the pressure.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by mburbank

Abcdxx; you quote me entirely out of context. I suggest that Israel......despite their pain and fear, is the erradication or removal of the Palestinians from the lands they currently live in. You can concider this racially motivated or not. I don't think it is, per se. I argue that Israels current approach works to make more Palestinaian terrorists, not less,......

No, I took you perfectly in context if you're claiming Israel is trying to erradicate, or even remove Palestinians. There is no plan, or dream of erradication. Again, Israel percieves Palestinians as being the same as the rest of the Arabic population. They wish to coexist. There is no "blood feud" just like there is no holy war. There are no Israeli school children singing songs about killing Arabs, no ten point plans to push them into the sea, and no charters that speak of it. So what are you talking about? Israel is talking about giving them Gaza, so how is it that your percieving this as removing them?

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Compared to the blokes under him, I think this guy should have been considered a pacifist.

"Hamas Names Hard-line Figure as New Leader in Gaza"

Also, remember that Yassin was a "spiritual" leader, ie, he didn’t plan military attacks or set specific targets. This doesn’t mean he is a nice guy.

Okay cut the double talk. Yassin was targeted because he took a hands on involvement in recruiting and planning suicide bombings. One can not mastermind a plan for the destruction of an entire race, act on these plans, and then be called a moderate for it.

Rantisi didn't pop up out of the blue as a result of this assasination, he was always the number two guy. When people talk of hitting Yassin, it was always in the same breath as taking out Rantisi. These are people who refuse to coexist, and refuse to negotiate short of killing every Jew, regardless of Israel's existance. What's moderate about that?

I don't consider Herzl or Jabotinsky to have socialist or communist principles, (these are the only guys I know) so you will have to walk me through what you mean.

I think Kevin already re-articulated my point. Zionism isn't an organization built around a single idealogy or the politics of any one figurehead. It's leanings were as lefty as they come. I know my own family attended Zionist meetings in Iraq run by the Communist party, and left a very comfortable lifestyle to go live in tents, and work on farms.

What I mean when I say the Palestinians are victims is this: ..... they are going to get any remaining houses destroyed, people arrested, "collateral damage" whatever. In other words, the cycle will continue with both Israeli and Palestinian people feeling the pressure.

Are you arguing that Palestinians have some moral high ground where they shouldn't be punished for crimes? It's not like Israel is going out and blowing up some random Palestinian home. You're confusing self defense, or even "retribution" with blood killings.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by ArtificialBrandon

Maybe you could explain why the hard left has jumped to the aid of extremist Islamic theocrats.

I'm not debating you on the history of Israel right now, one that in my opinion you have an incredibly simplistic perspective on.

Furthermore, my stance on the matter is hardly supportive of any "theocratic islamics" or whatever.

Originally Posted by Raygun

He can't.

Answer my fucking question.

[Zhukov]

Okay cut the double talk. Yassin was targeted because he took a hands on involvement in recruiting and planning suicide bombings. One can not mastermind a plan for the destruction of an entire race, act on these plans, and then be called a moderate for it.

Hands on?? The man was a quadriplegic… He may have recruited many with his words, but I don’t believe he was a planner. (nothing to do towards being quad btw.)

Rantisi didn't pop up out of the blue as a result of this assassination, he was always the number two guy. When people talk of hitting Yassin, it was always in the same breath as taking out Rantisi. These are people who refuse to coexist, and refuse to negotiate short of killing every Jew, regardless of Israel's existence. What's moderate about that?

I’m not calling him a moderate compared to any… sane… person. I, and others, are calling him the moderate compared to his inner circle buddies. You state yourself that he and Rantisi were inseparable, well, Yassin was the more moderate of the two. People have called that Nazi guy that flew to Britain a ‘Nazi Moderate’. Yassin was a ‘Hamas Moderate’, it sounds like an oxymoron… This is a really stupid point for either of us to be arguing.

Nonetheless, The framed pictures of Yassin that are waved by Palestinians are being replaced by those of Rantisi, this may not have an impact on Hamas right away, like you said Y and R were a duo. Yassin did have a lot of respect outside of Palestine, not just inside. Now that respect is going to go towards the more violent Rantisi. More Palestinian youths are going to idolise the ‘less moderate’ way. Lebanese and other ME groups are going to see an influx of members.

Zionism isn't an organization built around a single idealogy or the politics of any one figurehead. It's leanings were as lefty as they come.

The basic ideal that I thought Zionism stemmed from was that anti-Semitism could only be eliminated by the creation of a Jewish state. You are going to have to tell me otherwise, I really don’t know.

I know my own family attended Zionist meetings in Iraq run by the Communist party, and left a very comfortable lifestyle to go live in tents, and work on farms.

That’s what you get for getting involved with communists. I hope you don’t mind me asking for more information on this? What year/s particularly?

Are you arguing that Palestinians have some moral high ground where they shouldn't be punished for crimes?

No.

Israel has the death penalty does it? I always thought they didn’t.

It's not like Israel is going out and blowing up some random Palestinian home.

That’s highly debatable, collective punishment has been recorded I think. But I don’t want to get into it.

You're confusing self defense, or even "retribution" with blood killings.

Palestinian resistance is as much a form of self defence as the IDF. More so, I believe, as the IDF is used to create terrorists to maintain the stranglehold the Israeli state has on it’s people. Retribution also features highly. Palestinian “leaders” may spout death to all Jews and other rubbish, but what drives the Palestinian youth to want to kill is revenge.

[mburbank]

"No, I took you perfectly in context if you're claiming Israel is trying to erradicate, or even remove Palestinians."
-Abcdzxptht

You really, really need to go back and read what I wrote and stop having such a huge knee jerk reaction. I've explained it twice, I'll go for three.

1.) My contention is that Israel's current mode of response creates terrorists. That's certainly debatable, but it's hardly unsupportable.

2.) Israel, following it's current doctrine will need to hunt down and kill these terrorists, and using the methods they currently use will create more knew terrorists, who they will then need to hunt down and kill, creating more knew terrorists.

3.) It is my contention that this is illogical BECAUSE I assume that Isreal DOES NOT want to Commit to the utter eradication or forcible removal of the Palestinians from the land they6 now occupy. Unless Israel WANTS to do something I believe they DO NOT WANT to do, they need to abandon policy which leads inexorably in the direction of DOING THE THING THEY DO NOT WANT TO DO, ie. annialating or forcibly removing the Palestinaians, spomething I think most Isrealis ARE NOIT ACTIVELY IN FAVOR OF.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by mburbank

1.) My contention is that Israel's current mode of response creates terrorists. That's certainly debatable, but it's hardly unsupportable.

Just dying of curiosity, what method would you suggest Israel take in dealing with Palestinian terrorism?

Because it's pretty obvious attempts at peaceful solutions didn't do jack shit.

[Abcdxxxx]

Zukhov: To even theorize that Yassin was a pacifist is insane. He WAS Hamas. Yassin was a convicted criminal released in 1997 as part of a prisoner trade. He approved and financed every killing, and acted as a combatant. The death penalty would be judicial, while a target killing of a combatant is debatable within the context of the Geneva Conventions.

Obviusly . the IDF exists like all national armies, to defend it's borders, it's purpose is not to "create terrorists" or "strangle it's people". At it's core the IDF is already a peoples army.

Hamas teaches sing alongs to four year olds, who aren't old enough to even comprehend the concept of "revenge" on their own, about killing Jews. Not Israelis, Jews.

Socialist Zionism was founded in formal terms by Nachman Syrkin in 1899, when it became clear that the Socialist Revolution wasn't going to solve the needs of the Jewish Diaspora. Nobody agreed on specifics, so there were several Socialist Zionist parties, and some of them were actually Marxists. Most of Israel's Settlements movements grew out of the Socialist party, which also gave way to the aptly named Labor political party, where every Prime Minister up till 1977 came out of. David Ben-Gurion, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, Moshe Sharett, Levi Eshkol, Golda Meir, Moshe Dayan, Abba Eban, Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres and Ehud Barak all represented the Labor party.

Burbank: It helps when you include the words "Does not", thanks. Oh wait, then you back pedal and say Israel is on track for this erradication/removal thing anyway.

[mburbank]

I'd suggest a multi-pronged approach. First, with the co-operation of the united states, massive aid to the Palestinians. Help with irrigation, land reform, sanitation, food aid, education. I know the US does some of this, but the more the better. Any ground level assistance to alleviate suffering. I'd stop new settlements being built and I'd pull back the ones already up. I'd stop the use of collective punishment. Bulldozing houses, even though it may often be very useeful in depriving insurgents of cover, is a sure perscription for making people hate you. This also goes for firing heavy duty artillery are single targets. It's almost impossible to do this without killing a bunch of people standing nearby. I would end assasination because no matter how guilty the person is, how much they deserve to die and how many lives their death might save (something you can't know) it isn't justice. It's the military acting as judge, jury and executioner. If you want to draw a visible distinction between the good guys and the bad guys, you can't do it this way.

I would step up aggressive police actions with highly public, highly open trials, full rights provided, full access to evidence, totally transparent and monitored by multiple international legal experts.

A lot of soldiers would die this way. A lot of innocent people would probably die, becuase justice is slow. But a lot of people are already dieing, and what I'm suggesting might possibly move toward peace. It would certainly reduce the motivation for future terrorists and combat the idea that Israelis have no right to live. It would strengthen ties with allies. Unless you believe that all the Palestinains are completely insane murderers beyond any hope of redemption, and if you do believe that then I see no reason to pussyfoot around and Israel should declare outright war with the entire people.

I think as a Jew and a Westerner that Israel should do this with or without Palestinian cooperation, with or without an end to terrorsim. First, because a small group of people can commit terrorist acts and if you say all terrorism must cease before any negotiation you have given all the power of decision to the terrorists. THAT to me is appeasement. Terrorists don't want peace, they want violence and bloodshed and misery, not just for your people but for their own. The misery of their peers is their most potent recruitment tool. Second, because it is the right thing to do, the humane, civilized thing to do. I don't think you can fight Barbarians by becoming barbaric.

Look at the way people commit to war. They accept suffering and loss and terror and destruction. They say, that's the way war is, terrible things happen in war. Why is war worth that kind of risk and peace is not? Why will we commit the vast bulk of our treasure to war, why is the pinacle of technology weaponry? What if we put our resources and our energy and our hearts into attaining peace? What if we were as willing to die for peace as we are to die for war?

Concidering the current state of human technology and ingenuity, I think that as a species if we do not commit to peace with the same full measure that we all go to war, we will certainly wipe ourselves out. This may be inevitable. But I'd rather die working to stop that from happening.

Seriously. The palestinian/Israeli conflict is a microcosm for the world, and a lot of people from political scientists to born again rapture groupies think this conflict has the potential to eventually drag the whole world in. What do you think the chances of a winner emerging from that one are? I think any risk, any wound absorbed, any burden carried would be worth the price if some sort of peace could be forged there.

I think if the Palestinians laid down their arms, sat down in the streets and stopped eating they'd win the day as surely as Ghandi did. I wish they would, I wish they could see how much they had to gain. That kind of a cultural seea change would take an Ilsamic Ghandi, and someone would almost certainly kill him, but it's not impossible.

Why does it have to be the Israelis who give, who absorb the suffering? I have no idea. But I think it would be a mitzvah to try as hard as possible.

[Abcdxxxx]

Burbank, Israel has at various points tried every one of your suggestions. There are already many programs in place doing the very things you're talking about with little positive results. I would assume you're aware of this, but maybe you're not. I can elaborate on specifics if needed.

I don't think most people are aware of just how much aid Palestinians recieve, and from who, or where it's being appropriated to.

In regards to assasinations, so far Israel's targets have all been found guilty in a Democratic judicial court, and were wanted fugitives that in some cases were let free from prison.

Do you personally believe that Gandi and the Palestinians have the same goals?

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Burbank, Israel has at various points tried every one of your suggestions. There are already many programs in place doing the very things you're talking about with little positive results.

Yep. Israel has shown more than good faith in attempting to bring about peaceful solutions to the problem, so I can hardly blame them for taking the "just kick the crap out of them" approach.

[mburbank]

Abcdxxtrgtrgdtete; I would like to know about the current sate of these programs. I'm educable. Point me to the sources. While you're at it, point me aslo to the democratic proceedings that found these people guilty (and by the way before your knee jerks, I have no doubt they are) and what recognized democratic process authorized their public execution.

My guess is that the height of economic aid programs coresponds with terrorist recruitment going down. Directly prior to his assension, Shamir deliberatly set out to provoke a violent response. I think that response was barbaric, [pointless and totally, tragically predictable. That doesn't mean Shamir didn't seek it out and manipulate it.

Here's a suggestion I forgot to include that Israel adamantly refuses. International monitors. The line between Israel and the Palestinians should be crawling with blue helmets there should be video and audio recorders every few feet.


"Do you personally believe that Gandi and the Palestinians have the same goals?"

Hammas doesn't, but I'm sure some Palestinians don't. Instead of tactically ensuring the numbers of Palestinainas who wants the utter anialation of Israel grow, why not work as actively as possible with those who would recognize Israel? Instead we give all the power of deciion to terrorists, which is exactly what they want.

For those of you who find the "Kick the shit out of them" response favorable, or even just acceptable, where do you see this going? You may think my 'roadmap' is naive or unworkable, but I have an opinion. What's yours?

All I hear is "They have a right to defend themselves!" I agree. "They already tried!" does that mean they should give up? "Why does it have to be them?" It doesn't. But I'm a Jewish westerner and while I my be somewhat uneducated on the situation, I sure as hell have a better understanding of Israel nd the US than I do the Muslim world, of which I have no understanding at all. I think waiting for them to do their share (ie for other Arabs to take in the Palestinians, which by the way is not what many Palestinians want any more than you'd like to be relocated to another country against your will) seems hopeless.

But hell, if that's your roadmap, great. How could the US encourage this? Or is your solution "We've done all we can, it's up to them and if they don't do something it just goes on like this."

Where does that end? I'd say the BEST case scenario that can come out of tht would be the forced removal of the Palestinians. That's the very Best you could hope for, and it's not likely. And there are WAY worse outcomes.

I think peace between the Muslim and Western worlds is pretty much out of the question until Isreal and the Palestinaians stop killing each other.

I'll start a new thread.

[Abcdxxxx]

Burbank - you're starting to sound like you don't have much of an understanding of Israel at all....which I have a hard time believing with the amount of time you spend online debating the topic...but maybe it goes in one ear and out the other.

why don't you pick a specific point, and i'll elaborate on the programs being implemented..... otherwise you're asking for more information then you really want. in turn i'd like it if you could respond with how these programs have improved the situation for anyone involved.

in the meantime, israel has a democratic judicial system capable of holding fair trials and getting convictions based on evidential material. in the case of people like yassin, it's not hard. they openly flaunt their crimes because they believe they're entitled to it.