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  #101  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Nov 1st, 2005, 11:10 AM       
Various occultists and "Spiritual schools" and even religious people say the same thing, seth. I think it has something to do with "Will" in it's purest form(conceptual) which is why I always thought thelema was a fitting name.... A sort of conceptual and consciousness gravity that draws together various ideas and feelings...
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  #102  
kellychaos kellychaos is offline
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Old Nov 1st, 2005, 04:43 PM       
Although this is what many may consider "pop physics", this passage describing an image of a flowing brook from the the book, Sevel Lessons of Chaos: Spiritual Wisdom From The Science Of Change by John Briggs and F. David Peat, is what i was thinking in a roundabout way:

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The second image (re: the brook) shows the turbulence of a mountain stream. Here, apparent discorder masks an underlying pattern. Sit by this stream long enough and you begin to notice that is simultaneously stable and ever-changing. The water's turbulence generates complex shapes that are constantly renewed. So this stream is a metaphor for ourselves. Like the stream, our physical bodies are constantly being renewed and transformed as cells are regularly replaced. Meanwhile, that 'self" that we believe lies within the body at our psychological is also in flux. We are both the same person we were ten years ago and a substantially new person. But we can go further.

A little relflection reveals that the stream depicted here is inextricable from the other ecosystems to which it's connected - the myriad animals and plants that drink from its waters; the twigs, leaves, and seeds that litter the dimple and swirl of its surface; the ancient deposits of glaciers that alter its course; the climate and weather of the region; the season-making orbit of the planet through space. Similarly, each of us as an individual is inter-connect to the systems of nature, society, and thought that flow surround and flow through us. We live within movements constantly affecting each other and creating an unpredictable chaos at many levels. Yet within this same chaos is born all the physical and psychological order that we know.
Perhaps I have my definition of determinism wrong. The way I define it is as a strict and rigid plan with many discrete steps towards a definite purpose coealescing in a and predetermined and finite end. Although I sense a force moving towards a definite purpose with rules, I also see many instances where chaos (call it free will) fills in the gaps and actually serves as a cosmic lubrication, so to speak. So although the cosmos is moving towards an end (or new beginning?), the steps it may take to get there cannot possibly be predetermined. Perhaps a good estimate may be made, however.
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  #103  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Nov 1st, 2005, 05:31 PM       
What you posted is essentially a long drawn out definition of Karma, kellychaos. What you do will likely effect everyone in the world, just like everyone in the world will likely effect you. You could call it chaos theory, karma or just recognize it as something that has to happen regardless...
If you tell someone they are a rat bastard and it makes them angry and they take it out on someone else, then that person gets angry and they take it out on someone else.. yada yada.
Karma is really only individually targetted in mystic conversations to make people feel like the actions they commit will come back to them. Originally it was probably used as a tool to help egotistical people, but now it's spread into a sort of panic of misunderstanding. Isn't it funny the way karma works, it even works against itself.
Somehow when explainations like these come in book form people attach to them more readily than when someone explains them constantly on a message board.

I love this topic and would love to have conversations with you about it, it's such a variable topic and can be used to encompass anything.
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  #104  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Nov 1st, 2005, 06:04 PM       
By the by, what would you consider to be the purpose of that? I think it fits in well with discussions of evolution or the purpose of life. It sort of lends to the whole "Oneness" thing people talk about, what we do as individuals in some sense effects the whole. Because of this, considering humanity as a mass attempting to evolve to something better,(at the very least, considering what you posted as a means to social and cultural evolution) does what we do in our day to day lives have a large effect on how the whole works? A weak link in the chaos chain sort of thing.
So if humanity as a whole is trying to evolve into a super humanity, to what end? If the universe(or existence) functions on the same chaotic level, then how the whole of humanity is functioning effects how the whole of the universe is working, then the universe is also attempting to evolve to become a super universe. That can go into a lot of other thoughts.. but i always wonder, what's the point? Are we going to go around and beat up other universes, or are we going to chaos chain the other universes into becoming super universes? And if we do that, what's the point? At a certain point it becomes pointless. Who cares if you're big and bad, or if you're completed within yourself, through and through. What happens after that? You become stale and algaeic, creating another imperfect lifeform which collapses the whole. Rust is a curse to those who seek unity or perfection. The only thing I can think that makes it worthwhile is the pursuit of bliss, or the desire to flee from it. Probably both, unification errors right personification errors, solace within the epitemy of our own dualistic and chaotic nature-- keep pushing that stone. Duality is our epic of desertion and I pray it ends knowing it's infinite... is pursuing bliss anymore rewarding than the persuit of futility? I find they share the same facade. Repitition becomes our world, will our manifestation and copulation/ pity our means of survival. It makes you feel shame for yourself and everything around you, knowing it's all a built up dilusion based on the desire for meaning, but there can be no meaning and never will except within your insanity. Cthulu epics become exciting while eternal peace and solace become the weapon to bore eyes.
The universe is insane and in a state of constant angst, it's adorable. It is likely we have become our own epitimized universe an infinite amount of times then commited suicide. The will of our broken souls then molded our new haven while pieces of our angelic nature stayed in jolly candy land.
The universe is so pointless and eternity makes my heart throb with hatred. Who's idea was that anyway?
the funny thing is that bliss is attributed to nothingness, absolute void. Escapades from this. Somewhere along the line of striving for bliss everyone became a nihilist.
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  #105  
kellychaos kellychaos is offline
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Old Nov 2nd, 2005, 04:09 PM       
Perhaps chaos (or free will) is a matter of perspective and context. Perhaps we can only experience the free will as it pertains to us at our own respective level; whereas, when you step at another higher level, this flux (cause and effect) that we call life forms first, a discernable pattern, and then no movement ... no time? ... at all. Perhaps what you call "karma" has no discernable effect at all or becomes a plot outside the graph in those higher levels. "The Devil is in the details" ... so to speak.

The Big Bang becomes the Big Crunch and then renews itself into another Big Bang a' la "the Restaurant At The End Of The Universe"? You do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself about and that's ... really ... what it's all about. I'm such a victim of pop culture. :/
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  #106  
kellychaos kellychaos is offline
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Old Nov 2nd, 2005, 04:58 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
By the by, what would you consider to be the purpose of that? I think it fits in well with discussions of evolution or the purpose of life. It sort of lends to the whole "Oneness" thing people talk about, what we do as individuals in some sense effects the whole. Because of this, considering humanity as a mass attempting to evolve to something better,(at the very least, considering what you posted as a means to social and cultural evolution) does what we do in our day to day lives have a large effect on how the whole works? A weak link in the chaos chain sort of thing.
I'm not sure exactly where you're getting the idea of expansion so from my discussion. There are always gaps to be filled ... refinements. Think Derrida and deconstructionalism.
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  #107  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Nov 2nd, 2005, 05:23 PM       
"Perhaps what you call "karma" has no discernable effect at all or becomes a plot outside the graph in those higher levels"

Anybody who I've ever known who actually knows anything about karma or the way the world works would refer to karma as "Cause and effect". Whether it has a 'discernable effect' or not, it's there. Karma's sort of the complete(all the lies and truths, everything that has happened) history of the world, coalesced into a human concept that what happens in the future can be changed today(and of course that the past influences today, and thus the future). I think it's simple, most people find that hard for some reason.
Karma almost argues against freewill because it essentially states that you are a collection of everything that has happened to you, and to the world(because despite what happened to you, the world happened to you first). There's considered to be multiple levels of karma, blood karma(family), national, self and I guess universal if you want to get down to it. That means all the stigma your family (what kind of people they are, what religion they are, what kind of choices they make, their knowledge) and nation(same as family but with it's own variables) have gained, all the hate, all the good, all the bad, all the whatever is within you and forms your personality.
When you become enlightened(stipossidely) you disconnect from your karma, your karma becomes zero. Essentially, you go against your history, what you SHOULD believe and how you SHOULD act(according to the various karmas you have collected) become a non-issue, and you become capable of making your own decisions based on looking at the world without the dirty taint of your karma. Maybe we are capable of freewill, but not everyone has it? In that instance, freewill would be considered a self-freemasonry(the freedom to make yourself free, or the freedom to bind yourself, i spose), or masonry of the world and universe; essentially, will to power and will to manifestation. Will that is outside of your "Self" as you were born, will within your true self that is outside of the human drama(being within the human drama is being influenced by another, and thus your choices are limited). It's sort of like a freedom outside of sociological restraints.
I can still find flaws in that, though. For example, your karma still brought you to the point that you could become free of it all. But maybe that is more of a breaking point, creation unbridled or something. The big bang inside your underpants.
Is that easy to understand?

As for the big bang happening over and over again, that's what i was indicating(all the infinitey stuff, from bliss to futility) except I like to throw in some kind of romantic conceptualism that gives the neverending story a saga like feel. it essentially boils down to various forms of gravity, conceptual and idealogical.

In the end, maybe people choose to be ignorant and incapable of experiencing freewill. If everything is absolutely eternal and infinite, than everyone and everything has already been both an ascended master and a piece of shit-- possibly even simotaneously-- an infinite amount of times. Maybe the universe as a whole is the only thing that has freewill, and we are both it's unwitting bitch and the pieces that make it whole.

How much freedom can you really have within something that doesn't exist, though?
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  #108  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Nov 2nd, 2005, 05:28 PM       
"I'm not sure exactly where you're getting the idea of expansion so from my discussion. There are always gaps to be filled ... refinements."

"Similarly, each of us as an individual is inter-connect to the systems of nature, society, and thought that flow surround and flow through us"

From there. I'm so exhausted, though, maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. It's too hot in here Plus I haven't smoked pot in a few days, and I've been getting stoned constantly for so long.. plus i'm hungover. My brain feels fuzzy ;(
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