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  #51  
Jeanette X Jeanette X is offline
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Old Sep 22nd, 2008, 12:50 AM       
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Originally Posted by kahljorn View Post
cause human beings are biological and have brains. converting to mechanical is obviously way different than normal human beings.
We'll still be biological and have brains with cybernetics. I really don't understand why it totally changes the human condition to have a machine inside your body rather than outside it.
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  #52  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Sep 22nd, 2008, 01:12 AM       
Okay well what if everything that was biological were replaced and there was nothing left of our biological humanity?

A few more things:

I think what you're saying about being tortured by immortality is more a problem of either consciousness in general (which makes it irrelevant in some ways) or just the general psychology of people -- which can probably be influenced by having computers for brains.

Well i dont really see the difference if we were human on the outside but elephant on the inside.

furthermore you've said things like, if we were immortal, then society would stagnate and there would be no reproduction; isn't that something non-human? Reproduction is really just a vehicle for survival, immortality renders it useless ;o change/reproduction could occur in other forms by advancements in technology etc. It could get to the point where people are just robots and build other robots or do other things to other robots whatever robots wanna do.

did anybody notice that i used vonneguht as my argument?
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  #53  
Jeanette X Jeanette X is offline
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Old Sep 22nd, 2008, 01:55 AM       
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Originally Posted by kahljorn View Post
I think what you're saying about being tortured by immortality is more a problem of either consciousness in general (which makes it irrelevant in some ways) or just the general psychology of people -- which can probably be influenced by having computers for brains.
Having computers for brains, in my opinion, transcends the definition of human, as the brain is the seat of conciousness. But that's simply my opinion, I'm sure many people would argue that you remain human.

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Well i dont really see the difference if we were human on the outside but elephant on the inside.
If you had an elephant brain in a human body, that would be one thing, but a human brain in a mechanical/cybernetic body is still, in my opinion, human.

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furthermore you've said things like, if we were immortal, then society would stagnate and there would be no reproduction; isn't that something non-human?
I suppose it could be. But is that neccessarily something good?

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Reproduction is really just a vehicle for survival, immortality renders it useless ;o change/reproduction could occur in other forms by advancements in technology etc. It could get to the point where people are just robots and build other robots or do other things to other robots whatever robots wanna do.
By robots, you mean artifical lifeforms that evolve instead of us?
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Old Sep 22nd, 2008, 11:05 AM       
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Having computers for brains, in my opinion, transcends the definition of human, as the brain is the seat of conciousness.
yea, I would tend to think so as well.. What about replacing the nervous system or various other organs? Stomach/intestines? NO MORE POOP?

also i dunno if the brain is the seat of consciousness and i don't see over-coming consciousness to be the same thing as over-coming humanity.
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If you had an elephant brain in a human body, that would be one thing, but a human brain in a mechanical/cybernetic body is still, in my opinion, human.
Even if it's a highly modified human brain in a highly modified body, huh? Why draw a line of distinction at all between our primate ancestors and ourselves?

And are you saying it is impossible to over-come our humanity as long as we have a brain/other biological organs?

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I suppose it could be. But is that neccessarily something good?
Maybe. Is it necessarily something bad? What does goodness have to do with it...

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By robots, you mean artifical lifeforms that evolve instead of us?
By robots I mean US if we replaced every organ (or really most of them) in the body including the brain so that we were mostly/entirely mechanical. Like the robots in sirens of titan!

Imagine a society that has been around for trillions of years and over the years of technological development slowly replaced all of it's body parts in order to become immune to diseases and be able to travel in space and gain robot abilities!. This society no longer ever remembers what they looked like as biological life-forms before they started converting to mechanical :O
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Old Sep 22nd, 2008, 10:49 PM       
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yea, I would tend to think so as well.. What about replacing the nervous system or various other organs? Stomach/intestines? NO MORE POOP?
I can live with that.

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also i dunno if the brain is the seat of consciousness
Then what is? Your ass?!

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and i don't see over-coming consciousness to be the same thing as over-coming humanity.
Then what do you see as overcoming humanity?
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And are you saying it is impossible to over-come our humanity as long as we have a brain/other biological organs?
No, I'm saying that it is impossible as long as our conciousness remains ultimately human.

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Imagine a society that has been around for trillions of years and over the years of technological development slowly replaced all of it's body parts in order to become immune to diseases and be able to travel in space and gain robot abilities!. This society no longer ever remembers what they looked like as biological life-forms before they started converting to mechanical :O
Why would totally abandoning our biological bodies be so great? I wouldn't mind travelling in space and such, but what's wrong with keeping your flesh and blood?
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Old Sep 23rd, 2008, 01:02 AM       
Uh the subject is transhumanism don't ask me these questions about WHATS SO BAD ABOUT DECAYING FLESH AND BLOOD AND DYING EARLY.

What makes you think space travel and flesh and blood are compatible..?

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No, I'm saying that it is impossible as long as our conciousness remains ultimately human
Okay... so then we could pose your own question to you; what is human, and what is consciousness exactly? And why is it impossible for our consciousness to change from human to something different?

I think when you say, "Ultimately human" you're really saying similar in the way that we are now with similar qualities and things like consciousness and a social structure and stuff but just because THOSE THINGSG are similar doesn't mean that we haven't departed from i dunno ignorance and evil and social injustice or somethin\g whatever and aprt of this thred is that to be more than human is to be human but i think thats the piece of the puzzle you're missing.

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Then what do you see as overcoming humanity?
didn't we already discuss that the parameters were biological?

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Then what is? Your ass?!
My ass is the seat of your consciousness.
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Old Sep 23rd, 2008, 08:50 AM       

Deckard is Harrison Ford's character from Blade Runner. You gotta see it. I don't know jack about transhumanism, but there's an old guy who makes robots in the movie who says that his replicants are "more human than human." Anyway, there's a decades old debate on whether or not Deckard was a person or a replicant.
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Old Sep 23rd, 2008, 12:16 PM       
I call plagiarism, McClain.
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Old Sep 23rd, 2008, 12:29 PM       
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What makes you think space travel and flesh and blood are compatible..?
Spaceships, you twatwaffle.
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Okay... so then we could pose your own question to you; what is human, and what is consciousness exactly? And why is it impossible for our consciousness to change from human to something different?
I'm not sure. I'll have to chew that one over for a while, actually.

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I think when you say, "Ultimately human" you're really saying similar in the way that we are now with similar qualities and things like consciousness and a social structure and stuff but just because THOSE THINGSG are similar doesn't mean that we haven't departed from i dunno ignorance and evil and social injustice or somethin\g whatever and aprt of this thred is that to be more than human is to be human but i think thats the piece of the puzzle you're missing.
If I am making sense of this gobbeldeygook that you call a paragraph, you are telling me that transhumanism will overcome ignorance, evil, and social injustice. My question is, why would it do that? The thinkers of the Enlightenment insisted that they could do that, the proponents of the industrial revolution insisted they could do that, and the 19th century colonialists insisted they could do that in Africa, South America, and Asia. Look how that turned out. Why the hell should transhumanism end any differently?

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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Sep 23rd, 2008, 01:44 PM       
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Spaceships, you twatwaffle.
Ya and the furthest we have gone is the moon which took forever. Imagine trying to fly to another solar system or galaxy...

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If I am making sense of this gobbeldeygook that you call a paragraph, you are telling me that transhumanism will overcome ignorance, evil, and social injustice. My question is, why would it do that?
because of technologu and nanotechnologu. we can replace our brains and become more smarter, obviously. Plus the world around us will be vastly different with all the technology we have the access to resources and many of the normal drives and desires of human beings could even be eradicated. And those were just examples. Poverty and starvation could maybe b ehandled by things that make us not get hungry anymore and inequalities like physical strength and intelligence could be easily diminished...

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The thinkers of the Enlightenment insisted that they could do that, the proponents of the industrial revolution insisted they could do that, and the 19th century colonialists insisted they could do that in Africa, South America, and Asia. Look how that turned out.
So what? Were they replacing their bodies entirely with robots and living thousands of years in the future from now?

and anyway it's not as if the enlightenment and the industrial revolution didn't have a huge affect on our society; even if it didn't solve our problems completely.

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I'm not sure. I'll have to chew that one over for a while, actually.
You're a real deep thinker.

Be careful because you risk either making it so nobody is human or so that chimps are human :O

and also what distinguishes humans from equally/more intelligent/developed/emotionally-sensitive extra-terrestrials?

you know transhumanism does seem pretty optimistic though!
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  #61  
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Old Sep 23rd, 2008, 02:00 PM       


Upgrades for all!
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Old Sep 23rd, 2008, 02:05 PM       


Upgrades for some; miniature American flags for others!
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Old Sep 23rd, 2008, 02:07 PM       
Both are excellent choices.
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Old Sep 23rd, 2008, 06:32 PM       
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Ya and the furthest we have gone is the moon which took forever. Imagine trying to fly to another solar system or galaxy...
What makes you think that robo-bodies would be easier to create than spaceships?

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because of technologu and nanotechnologu. we can replace our brains and become more smarter, obviously. Plus the world around us will be vastly different with all the technology we have the access to resources and many of the normal drives and desires of human beings could even be eradicated.
And who would be the one to decide what drives and desires should be eradicated in the first place? Who is going to put force their view of morality upon the masses by tinkering with their brains?

Good Lord. Even Kulturekampf could write more intelligently.
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Old Sep 23rd, 2008, 11:20 PM       
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What makes you think that robo-bodies would be easier to create than spaceships?
All your arguments are picking on stupid details ;/ The nearest star is like 5 light years away which would take like 30 years or something i don't know the calculation but it would be a very long time. WHAT MAKES YOU THINK HUMANS CAN DEAL WITH THIS PSYCHOLOGICALLY OR BIOLOGICALLY? Some people theorize some type of hibernation to over-come this, but what type of life is that, and how healthy physically and psychologically.

I don't know personally I think space travel is ABSOLUTELY HORRIFYING.

And it doesn't have to be completely robotic, I only brought up the completely robotic thing to show you how far it could go, potentially, since all your arguments were like HAY THARS STILL LIKE 2 BIOLOGICAL CELLS IN THER THATS HUMAN.

It's not like transhumanism is going to drastically depart from the details of being human, just like, if a new evolution occured which "advanced the species," in a purely biological way it could POSSIBLY (LOOK AT THE WORD POSSIBLY) be considered transhuman; but regardless, it is a different species yet it will still share many qualities with humans, just like chimps do.

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And who would be the one to decide what drives and desires should be eradicated in the first place? Who is going to put force their view of morality upon the masses by tinkering with their brains?
How is this even remotely relevant to the fact that it could happen and according to most of the standards you set and the standard i set and you refused to agree or disagree with it's done shut up don't insult my intelligence when you're not even arguing ;/

I like how you go from me talking about poverty and starvation to CONTROLING THE MASSES MINDS WITH BRAIN CONTROL VIA ROBOTIFICATION. It's possible people could CHOOSE to become robotic or some kind of mixture of the two, for benefits for themselves and family. In fact, in modern times, haven't people installed chips or something in their child's brain which is supposed to make them smarter?

Furthermore, I like how you ignore good parts of an argument such as the fact that it could help to equalize intelligence and physical abilities, and your only point in return is that WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO CONTROL PEOPLES MINDS LIKE THAT? then declare me stupid. Sounds like a strawman.

I'm only doing you a favor by arguing with you so dont be a fallacious jerk
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Jeanette X Jeanette X is offline
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Old Sep 23rd, 2008, 11:43 PM       
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All your arguments are picking on stupid details ;/ The nearest star is like 5 light years away which would take like 30 years or something i don't know the calculation but it would be a very long time. WHAT MAKES YOU THINK HUMANS CAN DEAL WITH THIS PSYCHOLOGICALLY OR BIOLOGICALLY?
What makes you think that humans could deal with any of your proposals psychologically or biologicallly? I find the idea of a cramped spaceship infinintely less scary than being made into a Borg.

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It's not like transhumanism is going to drastically depart from the details of being human, just like, if a new evolution occured which "advanced the species," in a purely biological way it could POSSIBLY (LOOK AT THE WORD POSSIBLY) be considered transhuman; but regardless, it is a different species yet it will still share many qualities with humans, just like chimps do.
So is that how humans will be regarded by this new species? Chimps? The prospect of being treated like a chimp doesn't exactly enthrall me.

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I like how you go from me talking about poverty and starvation to CONTROLING THE MASSES MINDS WITH BRAIN CONTROL VIA ROBOTIFICATION.
Well, given your insistance that cybernetics would allow for fundamental changes in the negative aspects of human nature, what is to stop those in power from forcing it on the masses "for their own good"? Sure, in an ideal world the technology would be used fairly and justly and never forced upon anyone, but in the real world, that doesn't happen.

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It's possible people could CHOOSE to become robotic or some kind of mixture of the two, for benefits for themselves and family.
Sure they could choose. But are the powers that be going to let them? And is everyone going to have equal access to this technology, or is it just the wealthy?

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In fact, in modern times, haven't people installed chips or something in their child's brain which is supposed to make them smarter?
Not that I'm aware of.

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Furthermore, I like how you ignore good parts of an argument such as the fact that it could help to equalize intelligence and physical features, and your only point in return is that WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO CONTROL PEOPLES MINDS LIKE THAT? then declare me stupid. Sounds like a strawman.
Alike and equal are not the same, not to mention the fact that intelligence is notoriously difficult to quantify and measure. If we "equalize" one type of intelligence, what is to prevent this change in the brain from lowering a different type of intelligence. We know very little about how the brain works, and I am quite reluctant to tinker with something that we have little understanding of. I have only the most minimal understanding of how my car works, so therefore, it would be an extremely bad idea for me to start tinkering around under the hood to make it go faster.
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Sep 24th, 2008, 01:39 AM       
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What makes you think that humans could deal with any of your proposals psychologically or biologicallly? I find the idea of a cramped spaceship infinintely less scary than being made into a Borg.
I'm not necessarily proposing us becoming BORG, we might still have some FUN. Anyway, in this view you could argue that any type of utopian society would be Borgeseque :L( just with slightly different values. But really, it doesn't matter what YOU would want, it's just the fact that people could do it and it would depart from your meaning of human.

[quote]So is that how humans will be regarded by this new species? Chimps? The prospect of being treated like a chimp doesn't exactly enthrall me.[//quote]

ya you're so good at understanding points. Humans are a lot like chimps in a lot of ways, that's why in many psychological and physiological studies they use chimps in the place of human beings; i think the psychological portion of that is especially important.

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Well, given your insistance that cybernetics would allow for fundamental changes in the negative aspects of human nature, what is to stop those in power from forcing it on the masses "for their own good"? Sure, in an ideal world the technology would be used fairly and justly and never forced upon anyone, but in the real world, that doesn't happen.
So? Who gives a shit. This has nothing to do with transhumanism.

ITS POSSIBLE THAT BAD THINGS CAN HAPPEN IN THE UNIVERSE< THEREFORE NOTHING GOOD. We shouldn't have a justice system because it's possible that it might be abused! Those in power eventually abuse government!

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Sure they could choose. But are the powers that be going to let them? And is everyone going to have equal access to this technology, or is it just the wealthy?
*sigh* I don't know, I imagine that at the *very least* some remnant of modern economics might persist thousands of years from now and that technology will become more and more available as new production methods and newer forms of technology are developed. but i dunno maybe they won't be capitalist society.

Jeanette I think this is getting to ridiculous Will all these possibilities that you're bringing up are possible, it doesn't mean the other possibilities couldn't occur at some point in some history of some civilization. And furthermore, these things which we consider negative might not be so negative in the future! Maybe we can be blissful an d completely content by while being ruled.

or maybe it will be anarchist i dunno!

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Not that I'm aware of.
yea i think that happened ill try to find a news story.

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Alike and equal are not the same, not to mention the fact that intelligence is notoriously difficult to quantify and measure. If we "equalize" one type of intelligence, what is to prevent this change in the brain from lowering a different type of intelligence. We know very little about how the brain works, and I am quite reluctant to tinker with something that we have little understanding of. I have only the most minimal understanding of how my car works, so therefore, it would be an extremely bad idea for me to start tinkering around under the hood to make it go faster.
Okay well let's assume for a moment that the scientists and engineers of the future actually have some kind of idea about what they are diong and have maybe been trying to do it for a couple of hundred years or something.

no just kidding in the future most of the scientists have a 75 iq and the smartest ones are jeanette thats why we can take this here testimony as an authority. If jeanette doesn't understand modifying the brain, and all intelligent scientists of the future are jeanette, then we can't possibly hope that jeanette i mean intelligent scientists of the future will save us from inequality of the brain
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Old Sep 24th, 2008, 02:42 AM       
The only thing that is a bigger waste of time than being a transhumanist is talking about transhumanism.
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Old Sep 24th, 2008, 02:44 AM       
yea that's true

it's a giant appeal to ignorance :O
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Old Sep 24th, 2008, 12:02 PM       
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ya you're so good at understanding points. Humans are a lot like chimps in a lot of ways, that's why in many psychological and physiological studies they use chimps in the place of human beings; i think the psychological portion of that is especially important.
So we will be studied and treated like chimps? Sorry, but that comparision gives me the willies.


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So? Who gives a shit. This has nothing to do with transhumanism.

ITS POSSIBLE THAT BAD THINGS CAN HAPPEN IN THE UNIVERSE< THEREFORE NOTHING GOOD. We shouldn't have a justice system because it's possible that it might be abused! Those in power eventually abuse government!
It has everything to do with transhumanism. And comparing these new technologies to a fundamentally neccessary social institution such as a government or a justice system is like comparing apples to oranges.


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Jeanette I think this is getting to ridiculous Will all these possibilities that you're bringing up are possible, it doesn't mean the other possibilities couldn't occur at some point in some history of some civilization. And furthermore, these things which we consider negative might not be so negative in the future! Maybe we can be blissful an d completely content by while being ruled.
The main problem I see with your arguements is that whenever I make a counterpoint that the technology will pose some problem, you argue that the technology will be advanced to the point where that problem won't be an issue. Trouble is, I doubt that will happen. These things are a matter of trial and error, and the possibilty of something going horribly wrong is far more likely than everything going perfectly.


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Okay well let's assume for a moment that the scientists and engineers of the future actually have some kind of idea about what they are diong and have maybe been trying to do it for a couple of hundred years or something.

no just kidding in the future most of the scientists have a 75 iq and the smartest ones are jeanette thats why we can take this here testimony as an authority. If jeanette doesn't understand modifying the brain, and all intelligent scientists of the future are jeanette, then we can't possibly hope that jeanette i mean intelligent scientists of the future will save us from inequality of the brain
Believe it or not, scientists make mistakes too. I can offer you countless examples of mistakes with dire consequences if you like.
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Old Sep 24th, 2008, 09:24 PM       
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So we will be studied and treated like chimps? Sorry, but that comparision gives me the willies.
Nope, we won't be studied like chimps at all. I only brought that up to demonstrate how similar we are and how many of the things we consider "human" are also chimp; including our psychology.

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It has everything to do with transhumanism. And comparing these new technologies to a fundamentally neccessary social institution such as a government or a justice system is like comparing apples to oranges.
Actually I'm comparing your reasoning. Your reasoning is that, ABUSE COULD OCCUR THEREFORE WE SHOULDNT DO IT. Abuse can occur in justice/government/welfare, therefore we shouldn't do it. This means that we can't rely on the potentiality of abuse to judge if it's wrong. In fact, if anything, this means we should develop ways to protect it from being abused.

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These things are a matter of trial and error, and the possibilty of something going horribly wrong is far more likely than everything going perfectly.
The entire idea of trial and error implies that it will likely improve over time ;/ No new technologies work completely at first, and many have horrible difficulties. Also when you have problems y ou try to fix them ;/ it's not like they'll go, "Hey, look... there's a problem here. Let's keep replicating the same exact experiment over and over."

Do you think it's more likely that they would develop this problem and have some problems and then would have these problems for eternity or that they would have these problems for maybe a decade and then begin to have it fine-tuned by then? hmm.

and anyway all the problems you bring up are gay. OH THIS POWER TO MODIFY BRAINS COULD BE ABUSED. Well, then... obviously, the problem isn't the TECHNOLOGY but that it could be abused. So you have to protect from that. Not abolish the technology.

IMMORTALITY COULD CAUSE INSANITY! Well, then let people kill themsleves or find some way to satisfy themselves otherwise; whether technologically or spiritually or whatever. I mean, even not dying unexpectadly is a vast improvement in the human condition; it doesn't necessarily have to be immortality.

The problems you're bringing up aren't impossible to overcome ;/
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Jeanette X Jeanette X is offline
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Old Sep 25th, 2008, 05:20 PM       
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The entire idea of trial and error implies that it will likely improve over time ;/ No new technologies work completely at first, and many have horrible difficulties. Also when you have problems y ou try to fix them ;/ it's not like they'll go, "Hey, look... there's a problem here. Let's keep replicating the same exact experiment over and over."

Do you think it's more likely that they would develop this problem and have some problems and then would have these problems for eternity or that they would have these problems for maybe a decade and then begin to have it fine-tuned by then? hmm.
Yeah? And how long do you think its going to be until the problems are totally worked out? Lets see, we've had powerplants for...well over half a century. Sure, they've improved, but are they problem free today? Are they not making any negative environmental impact? If we can't so much as get our power plants in order over the time that we've had so far what on Earth makes you think we can overcome the probelms that cybernetics might pose in timely fashion?

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and anyway all the problems you bring up are gay. OH THIS POWER TO MODIFY BRAINS COULD BE ABUSED. Well, then... obviously, the problem isn't the TECHNOLOGY but that it could be abused. So you have to protect from that.Not abolish the technology.
Now who's making a strawman? I'm not proposing we abolish the technology, you utter moron. I'm just saying that it may not be as wonderful and utopia-creating as you seem to think it is, and that rushing to embrace it without anticipating these negative consequences is unwise. Having certain reservations about a new technology is not "gay", they are reasonable concerns to have.

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The problems you're bringing up aren't impossible to overcome ;/
No they are not. And World Peace isn't impossible either. That doesn't mean I expect it to arrive quickly.
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Old Sep 25th, 2008, 08:12 PM       
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Yeah? And how long do you think its going to be until the problems are totally worked out? Lets see, we've had powerplants for...well over half a century. Sure, they've improved, but are they problem free today? Are they not making any negative environmental impact? If we can't so much as get our power plants in order over the time that we've had so far what on Earth makes you think we can overcome the probelms that cybernetics might pose in timely fashion?
The environmental impact isn't a malfunction ;/. It's not like power plants have been consistently exploding for "well over half a century." The environmental "problems" are a side-effect that is widely known and accepted ;/

Anyway, my retort tot his still stands. What you're saying only means that we might have problems we will have to work out. Or this:

And not to be a jerk like you would be: whether or not the technologies will have a problem or two isn't really relevant. Transhumanism doesn't posit that we will be perfect. If anything, it posits that we will be significantly more perfect as a whole. And further, it doesn't posit that we will have NO problems, only that many of the problems we have will be either eradicated or lessened in effect, and that a new host of previously unhuman problems may arise.

It doesn't really matter if the problems are completely worked out, either, anytime soon. It could be tomorrow it could be ten billion years from now.

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Now who's making a strawman? I'm not proposing we abolish the technology, you utter moron. I'm just saying that it may not be as wonderful and utopia-creating as you seem to think it is, and that rushing to embrace it without anticipating these negative consequences is unwise.
Okay, I guess I stood to understand what you were saying in the only way that it could possibly mean anything.
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Well, given your insistance that cybernetics would allow for fundamental changes in the negative aspects of human nature, what is to stop those in power from forcing it on the masses "for their own good"? Sure, in an ideal world the technology would be used fairly and justly and never forced upon anyone, but in the real world, that doesn't happen.
the natural conclusion to draw from this is that we shouldn't do it. For me, at least.

Also, I would like to add that the failure to achieve an ideal is not the same thing as the ideal. There can't really be such a thing as a "Flawed transhumanism." I don't doubt that these possibilities aren't possible to happen. Sure, a civilization could go awry with their technology. But the ideal and the technologies are not the same thing. the technology is merely a means to an end. The reason it is so fascinating for the achieval of such an ideal, however, is the fact that it fundamentally alters people. So yes, it could be used to fundamentally alter people for the achievement of evil, but again, what this means is that we should try to keep it from being used that way ;/

also i don't think anybody is rushing to achieve this, either. Too much natural fear of, basically, exactly what you've been saying... that natural human fear of becoming unhuman.

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No they are not. And World Peace isn't impossible either. That doesn't mean I expect it to arrive quickly.
Transhumanism doesn't necessarily have a time frame, so BOOYAH! I guess.
although I'm sure most transhumanists would argue that it's just around the corner with the kaleidoscopinng parascoping nature of advancing technologies! someday your paradigm will shift and you will understand that the future comes faster than the future; here time turns into space!
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Sep 25th, 2008, 08:30 PM       
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The main problem I see with your arguements is that whenever I make a counterpoint that the technology will pose some problem, you argue that the technology will be advanced to the point where that problem won't be an issue.
and duh that's like 95% of the point with transhumanists
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Jeanette X Jeanette X is offline
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Old Sep 25th, 2008, 08:44 PM       
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Originally Posted by kahljorn View Post
The environmental impact isn't a dysfunction. It's not like power plants have been exploding for "well over half a century." The environmental "problems" are a side-effect that is widely known and accepted ;/
Global warming from energy production isn't a huge problem? Gee whiz, I guess all those scientists are wrong.


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And not to be a jerk like you would be: whether or not the technologies will have a problem or two isn't really relevant. Transhumanism doesn't posit that we will be perfect. If anything, it posits that we will be significantly more perfect as a whole. And further, it doesn't posit that we will have NO problems, only that many of the problems we have will be either eradicated or lessened in effect, and that a new host of previously unhuman problems may arise.
Care to explain us being more perfect as a whole with a new host of previously unhuman problems?


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I don't think anybody seriously thinks that this will be an error-free technology.
You seemed to.

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Basically, jeanette, what I'm getting from this is that you have absolutely nothing to say and really no conclusion. yes, technologies have problems. Thius one prolly will too. Big whooptifuckingdoo, thanks for teling me something i didnt know.
My point is that trashumanists are overly optimistic and glib.
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Okay, I guess I stood to understand what you were saying in the only way that it could possibly mean anything.
the natural conclusion to draw from this is that we shouldn't do it. For me, at least.
Why must everything be in this stark either-or dichotomy? Why can't I take a middle ground in my attitudes without being denounced as neo-Luddite merely because I think we should proceed with caution? Do you honestly believe that wholeheartedly embracing the new techonology and abolishing it are our only two options here?

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Originally Posted by kahljorn View Post
and duh that's like 95% of the point with transhumanists
Now this is what I mean by masturbatory. Pardon me if I'm reluctant to believe that it'll all be so nice and neat.
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