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Old Sep 15th, 2006, 04:31 PM        IDF commander admits "war crimes"
Hi guys! I found this article floating around my internet and I thought I'd plug it in here and see how all the staunch supporters of Israel like it!

Quote:
"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. According to their claims, the vast majority of said explosive ordinance was fired in the final 10 days of the war.

The rocket unit commander stated that Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) platforms were heavily used in spite of the fact that they were known to be highly inaccurate.

MLRS is a track or tire carried mobile rocket launching platform, capable of firing a very high volume of mostly unguided munitions. The basic rocket fired by the platform is unguided and imprecise, with a range of about 32 kilometers. The rockets are designed to burst into sub-munitions at a planned altitude in order to blanket enemy army and personnel on the ground with smaller explosive rounds.

The use of such weaponry is controversial mainly due to its inaccuracy and ability to wreak great havoc against indeterminate targets over large areas of territory, with a margin of error of as much as 1,200 meters from the intended target to the area hit.

'Excessive injury and unnecessary suffering'

It has come to light that IDF soldiers fired phosphorous rounds in order to cause fires in Lebanon. An artillery commander has admitted to seeing trucks loaded with phosphorous rounds on their way to artillery crews in the north of Israel.

A direct hit from a phosphorous shell typically causes severe burns and a slow, painful death.

International law forbids the use of weapons that cause "excessive injury and unnecessary suffering", and many experts are of the opinion that phosphorous rounds fall directly in that category.

The International Red Cross has determined that international law forbids the use of phosphorous and other types of flammable rounds against personnel, both civilian and military.

Read the entire thing, as well as the comments below.
SHOCKING.

But as long as it's not the terror smurfs dying who cares right? HIGH FIVE. Congrats guys we won!
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Old Sep 15th, 2006, 09:22 PM       
The title of the article quotes an unnamed source saying Israel "fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon" but the text of the article says "the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs". Meanwhile Israeli reservists are complaining that they were given "no fire" orders on the front lines.

I'd be outraged if the story were credible, but it's likely just one of many fabricated stories (most of which are recycled from accusations made against the US in Iraq) coming from Lebanon, like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDwqFMIPhbs&eurl=
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Old Sep 15th, 2006, 09:25 PM       


Quote:
I'd be outraged if the story were credible, but it's likely just one of many fabricated stories (most of which are recycled from accusations made against the US in Iraq) coming from Lebanon,
Do you have any idea what the system in Israel is like?

You don't just make up a fucking IDF commander, make up quotes, and publish the article in an extremely well-known Israeli source.

You just don't get away with that sort of thing in Israel. I love how you brag about how great Israel is and then dismiss every other Israeli source as propoganda. It's almost like you're going against your own arguments by admitting that there's a shitload of Israeli propoganda making Israel a not-so-great place after all.

Not every Israeli in the world will agree with you. In fact thousands won't. Does that make them all shitty faggots who give blowjobs to Arabs? 'cause by your definition anyone who disagrees with you sucks and should be shot in the face by some die-hard anti-Muslim nationalist sniper.
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Old Sep 15th, 2006, 11:35 PM       
I don't know about all your talk of blowjob and faggots - you're really insane...

....and your lack of understanding of a free press, and the definition of an opinion editorial makes me feel kind of sad for you.

please do tell me about this "system" Israel has ...will you?
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Old Sep 16th, 2006, 12:20 AM        better article
double post my bad
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Old Sep 16th, 2006, 12:21 AM        better article
Villages 'carpeted' with cluster bombs (Telegraph)

Israeli shelling left carpet of bomblets (CS Monitor)


Better article:

Quote:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761910.html

When rockets and phosphorous cluster

By Meron Rapoport

"In Lebanon, we covered entire villages with cluster bombs, what we did there was crazy and monstrous," testifies a commander in the Israel Defense Forces' MLRS (Multiple Launch Rocket System) unit. Quoting his battalion commander, he said the IDF fired some 1,800 cluster rockets on Lebanon during the war and they contained over 1.2 million cluster bombs. The IDF also used cluster shells fired by 155 mm artillery cannons, so the number of cluster bombs fired on Lebanon is even higher. At the same time, soldiers in the artillery corps testified that the IDF used phosphorous shells, which many experts say is prohibited by international law. According to the claims, the overwhelming majority of the weapons mentioned were fired during the last ten days of the war.

The commander asserted that there was massive use of MLRS rockets despite the fact that they are known to be very inaccurate - the rockets' deviation from the target reaches to around 1,200 meters - and that a substantial percentage do not explode and become mines. Due to these facts, most experts view cluster ammunitions as a "non-discerning" weapon that is prohibited for use in a civilian environment. The percentage of duds among the rockets fired by the U.S. army in Iraq reached 30 percent and the United Nations' land mine removal team in Lebanon claims that the percentage of duds among the rockets fired by the IDF reaches some 40 percent. In light of these figures, the number of duds left behind by the Israeli cluster rockets in Lebanon is likely to reach half a million.

According to the commander, in order to compensate for the rockets' imprecision, the order was to "flood" the area with them. "We have no option of striking an isolated target, and the commanders know this very well," he said. He also stated that the reserve soldiers were surprised by the use of MLRS rockets, because during their regular army service, they were told these are the IDF's "judgment day weapons" and intended for use in a full-scale war.


The commander also said that at least in one case, they were asked to fire cluster rockets toward "a village's outskirts" in the early morning: "They told us that this is a good time because people are coming out of the mosques and the rockets would deter them." In other cases, they fired the rockets at a range of less than 15 kilometers, even though the manufacturer's guidelines state that firing at this range considerably increases the number of duds. The commander further related that during IDF training exercises hardly any live rockets are fired, for fear that they would leave duds behind and fill the IDF's firing grounds with mines.

After being discharged from his reserve duty, the commander sent a letter to Defense Minister Amir Peretz and protested the number of cluster rockets fired in Lebanon, which "perhaps the generals forgot to mention." "As far as the duds are concerned," he wrote, "we have no control over who is hurt. Sooner or later they will explode in people's hands." He has yet to receive a response from the defense minister.

At the same time, soldiers are reporting that they fired phosphorous shells, which are supposed to be used by the IDF for marking or setting fire to areas, in order to start fires in Lebanon. The artillery commander says he saw trucks with phosphorous shells en route to artillery batteries in the North.

A direct hit from a phosphorous shell causes severe burns and a painful death. Around a year ago, there was an international scandal after a television crew presented harsh pictures of the charred bodies of Iraqis injured by phosphorous bombs during the course of the American attack on the city of Fallujah.

International law prohibits the use of weapons that cause "excessive damage and unnecessary suffering," and many experts feel that phosphorous is included in this category. The International Red Cross determined that international law prohibits the use of phosphorous against humans. The American "Book of War," published in 1999, which sets down the rules of war for the American army, states: "The ground war law prohibits the use of phosphorous against human targets." The pact on prohibiting or limiting flammable weapons bans the use of phosphorous against civilian targets and against military targets found amid large civil populations.

The IDF Spokesperson said: "International law does not contain a sweeping ban on the use of cluster bombs. The Conventional Weapons Pact does not stipulate a ban on the use of inflammatory weapons (i.e., phosphorous - M.R.), rather it only offers rules for organizing the use of this weapon. For understandable operational reasons, the IDF will not comment on a detailed listing of the weaponry at its disposal. The IDF uses only methods and weapons that are permitted according to international law. The firing of artillery in general, including the firing of artillery to demolish a target, was initiated in response to firing at the State of Israel only." The defense minister's bureau said in response that it had yet to receive an inquiry on the matter of firing cluster rockets.
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Old Sep 16th, 2006, 12:59 AM       
n.m
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Old Sep 16th, 2006, 06:12 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
I don't know about all your talk of blowjob and faggots - you're really insane...

....and your lack of understanding of a free press, and the definition of an opinion editorial makes me feel kind of sad for you.

please do tell me about this "system" Israel has ...will you?
"Insane," bwahaha, and that's coming from a guy who thinks the politics professor of Israel's most prestigious school is involved in conspiracy theories.

Boy, you really are a laugh a minute. Please convince us that you know absolutely anything about Israel or the Middle East.

Go ahead, I'd love to see you try.
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Old Sep 16th, 2006, 11:59 AM       
Jesus, Fuzzbot, you're a dick.

I'm going to be honest. I know NOTHING about Israel and Lebanon. I don't support one or the other, because I can't support something I know next to nothing about. I can imagine that they're at war over something monumentally stupid, but that's just a guess

However, Abcdxxxx had a point. The title of the article did not correspond with its content. That was cause for being a little skeptical about it. I don't see how that's justification for your assumption that anyone who supports Israel's cause is wrong. Because from what I can gather, supporting either side in this war is stupid.
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Old Sep 16th, 2006, 02:11 PM       
How did the title not correspond withthe content?

The "million" figure refers to the individual explosive devices contained within a cluster munition.
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Old Sep 16th, 2006, 02:21 PM       
Derrida, what's the difference between 1 million cluster bombs, 1,800 cluster bombs? Or a microcluster and a cluster. Does it matter to you, or is the point that Israel used bombs during warfare and you found a misleading article? Haaretz is like Israel's NY Post.

Fuzzbot, your next response should be detailling that "system" of Israel's which you mentioned. Tell us.
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Old Sep 17th, 2006, 07:12 PM       
yeah it's a shame Israel was heavy handed here. But remmeber Hezballah committed war crimes too in fact 99.99% of all their attacks where non provoked assaults on civilians women and children. Come to think of it they only shoot soliders when the soldiers get between them and the kids.

True Israel should have taken the high ground but I think the international community is turning a blind eye to the bigger evil here. Hezballah is already violating the treaty STILL not releasing the soldiers and still recieving weapons.

Should Israel beheld responsible? sure
How about Hezballah, is anyone EVER going to sue them for a dime or try their leaders for war crimes or Nasrallah's constant comments of express and unflinching genocide?
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Old Sep 18th, 2006, 09:53 AM       
I'm pretty sure that the original source is Harretz, for whom it's author, , is a corrspondent.


I found this in EP, a highly reputable journal that covers world press.

Ha'aretz, Israeli Daily, Criticizes Country's Use of Cluster Bombs in Lebanon

Haaretz is a dily newspaper in Israel. I make no claims to knowledge about what sort of paper it is, but if it survives as a daily, one assumes it represents at least some thread of Israeli thought.


By E&P Staff

Published: September 14, 2006 2:00 PM ET

NEW YORK During the recent Israel/Hezbollah war, E&P carried several columns following the news coverage and opinion columns at Ha'aretz, the popular Israeli daily newspaper. While initially very supportive of the Israeli shelling and invasion of Lebanon, the newspaper later offered many probes and commentary on what had gone wrong, and why.

In recent weeks, intense media interest in the conflict during the war has largely evaporated in the U.S., despite the massive destruction in Lebanon and a fierce debate inside Israel over the conduct of the war. Ha'aretz has been at the center of this again, and in recent days has explored its country's use of thousands of indiscriminate cluster bombs in civilian areas of Lebanon -- which go on kiling today.

The newspaper's editorial today was remarkable for its willingness to raise moral issues and take its own government and military to task.

*

During the final days of the war, when it became clear that the Israel Defense Forces had no solution to the ongoing launchings of Katyusha rockets, a decision was made to "flood" the area with cluster bombs, delivered by artillery shells and rockets. This was non-target specific shooting, based on the assumption that the bomblets would cover a large area, possibly destroy Hezbollah rocket launchers and cause as many casualties as possible among its fighters.

A soldier who fired 155mm artillery shells delivering cluster bombs told Haaretz that he was ordered to "flood" the area with these bombs, without having a specific target. A commander of a Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) told Haaretz that his order was to "saturate the area." These statements were published in stories by Meron Rapoport on September 8 and 12. More than a million cluster bomblets were dropped in southern Lebanon. Each M-26 rocket fired by an MLRS contains 644 cluster bomblets, capable of covering an area the size of a football field.

Firing at undefined targets is a problem in and of itself. The dilemma it entails is reflected in statements by soldiers who fired cluster bombs during training and recognized that this type of weapon should be used only in a war against a regular army, for the purpose of hitting arms supply convoys or missile batteries - not against civilian areas. But beyond this dilemma, the committee investigating the war should find out whether anyone considered what would happen to the thousands of cluster bomblets that failed to explode, and were therefore transformed into mines spread throughout southern Lebanon.

The cluster bomb is not a banned weapon, but it is described as an "indiscriminate" weapon, which should not be used against targets in civilian areas because, inter alia, it continues to kill once the war is over. Since the cease-fire went into effect, 12 Lebanese civilians have been killed by duds that exploded unexpectedly. Since the percentage of unexploded cluster bomblets ranges from 5 to 30 percent, according to various assessments, southern Lebanon is now an area littered by thousands of bomblets that have not yet exploded.

Questions regarding the IDF's conduct during the war have many implications, both moral and practical. Israel's ability to rally international support depends in part on the distinction it makes between innocent civilians and the enemy. While Hamas and Hezbollah attack civilians as part of their strategy, Israel declares that it does not do so, and that it makes an effort to avoid harming civilians. The decision to drop cluster bombs on villages, with no specified targets; the decision to use these bombs over a large area, making it impossible to know in advance who will be there; and the well-known fact that a large percentage of these munitions will not explode on impact, and will therefore be transformed into mines in an area to which civilians will return, are all further testimony to the flawed decision-making of those who managed the war.

Now, Israel can do little except accede to UN Secretary General Kofi Annan's request and assist in marking the areas hit by the cluster bombs, so that there will be no further casualties among Lebanese civilians, who have already been hurt by the war. Significant portions of southern Lebanon have now become minefields. Annan's condemnation was not without basis.
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Old Sep 18th, 2006, 01:56 PM       
Haaretz is a Leftist paper with a more then questionable track record in the credebility of what they'll publish. Many of their stories are unsubstantiated sensationalism.

We have a correspondent and an unnamed source and that's about it. Yes, the paper is from Israel, but when was that a license for automatic credebility? If Israel wasn't constantly libeled for fictional war crimes on a daily basis it might be easier to take this "report" at face value. It's become the principle source for several articles, but has anybody gone and done a follow up investigation? What with the inhumane destruction this article hints to (including the suggestion that Israel used chemicals) that shouldn't be so hard. The Lebanese Arabs are not shy for the cameras. Israel knew going in that no matter what they did in Lebanon, they would be accused of war crimes. There are people after all who believe Israel's existance alone is a war crime. Many of those people are Israeli citizens, who work for Haaretz, or hold tenure at Israel's Universities. So where are the investigative reports to substantiate the claims? This sure as hell isn't it.
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Old Sep 18th, 2006, 02:29 PM       
Okay.

But "it's likely just one of many fabricated stories (most of which are recycled from accusations made against the US in Iraq) coming from Lebanon" is wrong. It comes from a popular Israeli paper and was written by an Israeli, not from Lebanon, as even the smallest amount of reserch or reading would have revealed, Mr. 'read my syllabus and until you do I'm right.' Your knee jerks just as much as anyone elses.

Hypothetically, if it turns out the Israelis did indeed use lots of clusterbombs, the way the US does, what would you think of that?

Is it neccesary? Strategic? Moral?

I think none of the above. Cluster bombs, by design kill indiscriminantly and by design can continue to kill after a conflict is over, or a ceasefire has been signed. Like land mines (which the US uses) they have a function beyond their immediate strategic use. They begin as tactical weapons and become terror weapons.

So you find Haaretz has a... questionable track record. As the source of all knowledge on Israel, I yield to you. It is, hwoever, my experience that governments have a 'questionable' track record as well when it comes to being truthful. So. As a hypothetical, would it be okay with you if Israel deployed a large number of cluster bombs in their war with Lebanon?

And just so we're on an even playing field, and before you ask, no, it is not at all okay with me that Hezbollah kidnapped two soldiers and won't give them up, and that they deliberately target civillians. In fact, I can't think of much Hezbollah does that's okay with me, but even in the light of that, I am sometimes able to wonder if what Israel does is okay.



And just to be clear, are there seriously Many Israeli citizens, who work for Haaretz, or hold tenure at Israel's Universities who believe that te existance of Israel is a war crime? That the state commits war crimes, I'd be happy to believe that, I believe it of my own country. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a country that goes to war that doesn't commit war crimes. It's just the winners are usually not punished. But that the existence of israel is in and of itself a war crime and ergo it should not exist? Citizens? And you know them to be employees of Haaretz and Israeli unniversities? Not just a few loose canons, but 'many'? I'm not an Israeli, I never lived there, I hold no doctoral degrees in the history of Israel or the middle east as I know you might be, although the source of your superior knowledge has never been revealed. I'd be very interested in a thread devoted to your sourcing the idea that many israeli citizens feel the existence of israel constitues a war crime. I do not deny the possability in the least. But you have certainly piqued my curiosity.
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Old Sep 18th, 2006, 03:24 PM       
I post this article from the UK Independant knowing full well that A.) it too, is liberal, left leaning and has that 'questionable track record' and B.) They quote the haaretz artcile and have not uncovered who the unamed IDF officer is. However, they also site observations of cluster bombs, victims and operations designed to remove unexploded cluster bomblets.

Deadly Harvest: The Lebanese Fields Sown With Cluster Bombs
By Patrick Cockburn
The Independent UK

Monday 18 September 2006

Lebanese villagers must risk death in fields "flooded" with more than a million Israeli cluster bombs - or leave crops to rot.

The war in Lebanon has not ended. Every day, some of the million bomblets which were fired by Israeli artillery during the last three days of the conflict kill four people in southern Lebanon and wound many more.

The casualty figures will rise sharply in the next month as villagers begin the harvest, picking olives from trees whose leaves and branches hide bombs that explode at the smallest movement. Lebanon's farmers are caught in a deadly dilemma: to risk the harvest, or to leave the produce on which they depend to rot in the fields.

In a coma in a hospital bed in Nabatiyeh lies Hussein Ali Ahmad, a 70-year-old man from the village of Yohmor. He was pruning an orange tree outside his house last week when he dislodged a bomblet; it exploded, sending pieces of shrapnel into his brain, lungs and kidneys. "I know he can hear me because he squeezes my hand when I talk to him," said his daughter, Suwad, as she sat beside her father's bed in the hospital.

At least 83 people have been killed by cluster munitions since the ceasefire, according to independent monitors.

Some Israeli officers are protesting at the use of cluster bombs, each containing 644 small but lethal bomblets, against civilian targets in Lebanon. A commander in the MLRS (multiple launch rocket systems) unit told the Israeli daily Haaretz that the army had fired 1,800 cluster rockets, spraying 1.2 million bomblets over houses and fields. "In Lebanon, we covered entire villages with cluster bombs," he said. "What we did there was crazy and monstrous." What makes the cluster bombs so dangerous is that 30 per cent of the bomblets do not detonate on impact. They can lie for years - often difficult to see because of their small size, on roofs, in gardens, in trees, beside roads or in rubbish - waiting to explode when disturbed.

In Nabatiyeh, the modern 100-bed government hospital has received 19 victims of cluster bombs since the end of the war. As we arrived, a new patient, Ahmad Sabah, a laboratory technician at the hospital, was being rushed into the emergency room. A burly man of 45, he was unconscious on a stretcher. Earlier in the morning, he had gone up to the flat roof of his house to check the water tank. While there, he must have touched a pile of logs he was keeping for winter fires. Unknown to him, a bomblet had fallen into the woodpile a month earlier. The logs shielded him from the full force of the blast, but when we saw him, doctors were still trying to find out the extent of his injuries.

"For us, the war is still going on, though there was a cease-fire on 14 August," said Dr Hassan Wazni, the director of the hospital. "If the cluster bombs had all exploded at the time they landed, it would not be so bad, but they are still killing and maiming people."

The bomblets may be small, but they explode with devastating force. On the morning of the ceasefire, Hadi Hatab, an 11-year old boy, was brought dying to the hospital. "He must have been holding the bomb close to him," Dr Wazni said. "It took off his hands and legs and the lower part of his body."

We went to Yohmor to find where Hussein Ali Ahmad had received his terrible wounds while pruning his orange tree. The village is at the end of a broken road, six miles south of Nabatiyeh, and is overlooked by the ruins of Beaufort Castle, a crusader fortress on a ridge above the deep valley along which the Litani river runs.

Israeli bombs and shells have turned about a third of the houses in Yohmor into concrete sandwiches, one floor falling on top of another under the impact of explosions. Some families camp in the ruins. Villagers said that they were most worried by the cluster bombs still infesting their gardens, roofs and fruit trees. In the village street, were the white vehicles of the Manchester-based Mines Advisory Group (MAG), whose teams are trying to clear the bomblets.

It is not an easy job. Whenever members of one of the MAG teams finds and removes a bomblet, they put a stick, painted red on top and then yellow, in the ground. There are so many of these sticks that it looks as if some sinister plant had taken root and is flourishing in the village.

"The cluster bombs all landed in the last days of the war," said Nuhar Hejazi, a surprisingly cheerful 65-year-old woman. "There were 35 on the roof of our house and 200 in our garden so we can't visit our olive trees." People in Yohmor depend on their olive trees and the harvest should begin now before the rains, but the trees are still full of bomblets. "My husband and I make 20 cans of oil a year which we need to sell," Mrs Hejazi says. "Now we don't know what to do." The sheer number of the bomblets makes it almost impossible to remove them all.

Frederic Gras, a de-mining expert formerly in the French navy, who is leading the MAG teams in Yohmor, says: "In the area north of the Litani river, you have three or four people being killed every day by cluster bombs. The Israeli army knows that 30 per cent of them do not explode at the time they are fired so they become anti-personnel mines."

Why did the Israeli army do it? The number of cluster bombs fired must have been greater than 1.2 million because, in addition to those fired in rockets, many more were fired in 155mm artillery shells. One Israeli gunner said he had been told to "flood" the area at which they were firing but was given no specific targets. M. Gras, who personally defuses 160 to 180 bomblets a day, says this is the first time he seen cluster bombs used against heavily populated villages.

An editorial in Haaretz said that the mass use of this weapon by the Israeli Defence Forces was a desperate last-minute attempt to stop Hizbollah's rocket fire into northern Israel. Whatever the reason for the bombardment, the villagers in south Lebanon will suffer death and injury from cluster bombs as they pick their olives and oranges for years to come.





So, a few questions.

Do you have a source denying the use of cluster bombs?

Do you have a source denying what Haaretz's alleged officer reported?

Do you feel cluster bombs are a legitimate weapon with a purpose beyond terrorism that could not be accomplished by other weapons?
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Old Sep 18th, 2006, 05:08 PM       
I thought it was already widely reported, especially by cnn and usatoday, that cluster bombs were used by israeli's, even photographs of unexploded cluster bombs were shown. But I do believe it was an act of crime. I'm not saying it because I want it to be but from what I have read, a lot of things the israelis had done clearly didn't make sense to me if they were really motivated in defeating hezbollah. Does it make any sense to you that they would drop leaflets warning the civilians to get out yet at the same time they're blowing up the airports and bridges? Why would they bomb milk and pharmaceutical factories? Seem like an unlikely hiding place for hezbollah. In my gut intuition this was planned. Israeli MI's knew of impending kidnappings and did nothing to stop it. Similiar tactic were used in the gaza recently before israel pulled the plug on the 1.5 million palestinians.
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Old Sep 18th, 2006, 05:16 PM       
In shoe on the other foot news Israel is charging Hezballah with murder. They never declared war, all they did was shoot rockets at unarmed civilians with no soldiers around for miles. They aren't POWs because no war was declared, and they didn't kill any soldiers. I hope they rot for a goooooood long time.

Anyway here us the article.

Israeli authorities on Monday charged three Hezbollah militants captured in Lebanon with murder and other terrorism-related crimes.

Israel says its forces captured the three Lebanese men, who are all in their 20's, during its recent intervention against Hezbollah in Lebanon. However, Israeli officials say the three are not prisoners of war, but terrorists who will be tried as common criminals. Mickey Rosenfeld is a spokesman for Israel's police.

'All three men are being charged for murder, attempted murder and being members of a terrorist organization, Hezbollah, and carrying out terrorist attacks against Israeli forces,' said Rosenfeld.

The three were allegedly involved in the July 12 Hezbollah raid into Israel, during which two Israeli soldiers were abducted. Eight other Israeli soldiers died in subsequent fighting. Mickey Rosenfeld says one reason the three are being charged as common criminals is because they were allegedly involved in an operation that took place inside Israel.

'The crimes that were committed and the attacks that happened did take place on Israeli soil, and this is the background and the basis of the decision that has been made about taking these three individuals, and charging them for what they are being charged for,' said Rosenfeld.

A lawyer for one of the three men said on Monday that the three do not deny belonging to Hezbollah, but they consider themselves prisoners of war. Israel and the United States consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organization, and Israel says it will not treat Hezbollah militants it captures as prisoners of war.

While they face lengthy prison terms, if convicted, the three are likely to be part of a prisoner exchange that is currently being negotiated by a senior U.N. official.

Monday's development came just a day after Israel's Cabinet appointed a commission of inquiry to examine the decision-making process behind the 34-day conflict in Lebanon. The Cabinet decision falls short of demands by many Israelis for a state commission of inquiry that would have the authority to recommend the dismissal of senior officials for their conduct of the war.
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Old Sep 18th, 2006, 05:21 PM       
If the use of cluster and phosphorus bombs could somehow be proven, I would be outraged.
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Old Sep 18th, 2006, 05:49 PM       
I'm all for trying them as criminals. If it's a fair and open trial and they're fpund guilty, that's great. It would set an excellent precedent for dealing with terrorism under the rule of law.
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Old Sep 18th, 2006, 06:51 PM       
Consider it proven, then. Be outraged if you want. Please, though, let us know when your outrage becomes so frustrating for you that you start thinking it might be Ok to kill as many people as you can in order to draw attention to your outrage. The bar has been raised recently... I'm not sure if you got that memo. Now that everybody's at least a little outraged, the rest of us only care when somebody snaps, turning into a mass-murderer.

I have no doubt whatsoever Israel used cluster bombs, knowing full well that old dude would shake one loose from his olive tree. They've done it before, and they will do it again. They done it in Lebanon before, so the poor, innocent farmers of South Lebanon that can't harvest their olives and oranges knew this was coming... yet they STILL supported the actions of Hezzbollah.

I support cluster bombs. Torture, too... and not just the playing loud music variety, either. People like to point at the Geneva Conventions as if they represented the idea that we of the Western World are somehow above barbarity now. Well, I wouldn't support cluster bombs being used on France... but the enemy in this war is to blame for starting a war with no foundation in the rules of sane warfare.

Hezzbollah, Al Quaeda and all the other "terrorist organizations" are deliberately shunning any illusion of civility... humanity even... with their chosen brand of hostility. Take control of a country, uniform your soldiers and STOP HIDING BEHIND YOUR WOMEN AND CHILDREN, for God's sake! All this moaning and crying about what Israel and the US are doing never seems to find the proper context of reality. Lebanon has been a hell hole since the sixties because the Lebanese want it that way. Palestinians could have had their state decades ago if that's what they had ever really wanted.

We sit over here... or there in some cases... wringing our hands at how long it's taking for any signs of success, blaming Israel and the US for poor planning when goals aren't met in a timely fashion. Here's the thing: The plan of the enemy in this case is to disrupt ANY success. They want stalemate. They want the daily chaos of a never-ending war. Hezzbollah was not thrown off by Israel's attacks. They were upset at what they called Israel's "over-reaction" to their provocation. Why? They don't want REAL war. They know they don't stand a chance in one of those.

What they want os a persistent stand off. They want sanctions. They want ceaseless diplomatic negotiations. They seek the fog of war in order to keep things just as they are... just as they have been for as long as they can remember. That poor old schmuck in a coma is not in the sad shape he's in because of Israel. He's fucked because that's what those that are running his country want all of the people in that region to be. They want people that are totally screwed but loyal, and you only get that by keeping your people ignorant, poor and angry.

We are fighting brutal, inhuman barbarians. We will not win by fighting like modern, intelligent and sensitive people. They hope we will try, because they know that is the key to their endless war. They are not limiting the tools available to them in this struggle. In fact, they are proving to be remarkably creative in their ability to forge weaponry out of nothing. That creativity should not be admired, however. Look closely at how they are fighting and you will see their methods should only be deplored. For their war crimes, they should be destroyed. Utterly. They have proven themselves to no longer be human.

They are not remnants of the past that have yet to be enlightened by our modern age. They know more about our civilization and all it's sensitivity and humanity than do most of us. They reject it, and they seek to utilize it in their fight as a vulnerability. They don't want a civilized, humane or free society for their people. We do. Personally, I want this war over as quickly as possible. I want to see the people of the Middle East, Africa, Asia and South and Central America joining our modern, free, humane and civilized world. I want that so badly that I like it when I see the assholes standing in the way of that being tortured, phosphorized and cluster bombed. Those barbaric acts reflect perfectly my will to finish this and move on to a better tomorrow.

I know our enemy, and they are the enemy of the modern world. What they are doing is worse by far. Cluster bombs pale in comparison to our roping off 1/3 of the world, calling it quits and trying our best to ignore what's going on in there. A future without a War on Terror is the nightmare. Don't kid yourselves, and treat this just a little seriously, Ok?
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

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Old Sep 18th, 2006, 06:53 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
I'm all for trying them as criminals. If it's a fair and open trial and they're fpund guilty, that's great. It would set an excellent precedent for dealing with terrorism under the rule of law.
Trying who? The Israelis? Come ON, Max!

I'll give you a minute to read through the above novellette before I start screaming at you... Just a minute, though.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

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Old Sep 18th, 2006, 07:05 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
I'm all for trying them as criminals. If it's a fair and open trial and they're fpund guilty, that's great. It would set an excellent precedent for dealing with terrorism under the rule of law.
I guess you're not aware that the Palestinian Authority assets were frozen by a US District Court in Rhode Island when they lost a terrorist suit from American families. That was the precedence.

Shurat Hadin, Israeli Law Center is one group that uses the legal system to fight terror crimes....they just served Khatami the night he addressed CAIR, for crimes against Iranian Jews.
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Old Sep 18th, 2006, 07:30 PM       
All your other questions are irrelevant untill we know what happened. I think it's war...and before you try and turn this into a moral argument, let's work on getting the factual argument laid down first. Haaretz was wrong about Kana, the Beach Blasts, and Jenin amongst other stories....but I guess I'll have to remember that Israel's press is suddenly beyond error. It's a free press, with agendas and ties to various political partys, and I've never ever represented Israel's Press as anything but. While it's more credible then say, Al Jazeera, they do print their share of nuttiness - most of which Americans never latch on to. Notice I'm not ruling out the possibility that there's truth to certain accusations against Israel, but for goodness sakes, how credible are these reports if the Haaretz article is STILL the prime source, and nobody has verified it? Now you want me to prove it didn't happen? Well there are tons of stories coming out as fact that didn't happen (like the double bombing of an ambulance, that is complete fiction) .... so thanks to Hezbolla and a sensationalist corrupt media, you have to prove a crime DID happened...that used to be called responsible journalism. There is no more benefit of the doubt. How many times can you cry wolf and then try to test us with questions of morals? People are STILL claiming Jenin was a massacre. The Arab leadership in the region makes policy decisions on what will make Israel look bad, not what's best for their people. Frankly, you're lucky Lebanon wasn't turned "back to the stone ages" like people were claiming. It's cute how you're trying to engage me in conversation all of a sudden, but I think you're trying to have a different conversation then I am. You've concluded that Israel's defense puts it in a "two wrongs don't make a right" category. In that case, it doesn't really matter if they used clusters or not, now does it?



Quote:
But that the existence of israel is in and of itself a war crime and ergo it should not exist? Citizens? And you know them to be employees of Haaretz and Israeli unniversities? Not just a few loose canons, but 'many'?
Yup, that's all correct. The names are too many to mention. You can add "elected officials sitting in parliament" to that list of Israeli citizens who call for the States destruction and will coroborate any accusation you level against Israel, even the fictionalized ones. When you consider these people continue to hold residency in Israel, it's pretty clear they're just psychotic. Why are they even there then?

As a side story, I have some cousins who are currently living in an illegal outpost near the Arab village of Abu Gosh - which is near Jerusalem. It's conquered territory, taken from Jordan. So they're in this secluded villa and as long as they pay a fine to Israel they're allowed to stay, though technically the State has ruled it illegal for them to be there. Why do I mention all this? Because their father is incredibly active in Peace Now. It's total hypocrisy. Somewhere along the way, Israel became a dumping ground for crazy Americans and Australians with some very twisted self hating politics.
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Old Sep 18th, 2006, 08:11 PM       
Preech, get a grip. I'm in favor of trying the Hezbollah fighters Israel caught, as they are suggesting they will.

Alphaboy (your new nickname), I believe I finally begin to understand some of your position. Not agree, mind you, just understand it.

"I support cluster bombs. Torture, too... and not just the playing loud music variety, either."
-Alphaboy.

Good to know. It makes me feel much better about disliking you. Kev, remember what you were just asking me about what it would be like if you brought a right wing marine to "My house" and he said a lot of horrid shit, would I respect him? Well, here you go, except Alphaboy isn't a marine. So I'll just turn the question back to you. Having said "I support cluster bombs. Torture, too... and not just the playing loud music variety, either." do you still think Alphaboy has anything to bring to the table? I would say I think he still does. But like I said, I have less doubts about thinking there's something wromng with him aside from being an oppinionated prick.

"Take control of a country, uniform your soldiers and STOP HIDING BEHIND YOUR WOMEN AND CHILDREN, for God's sake!" and " Lebanon has been a hell hole since the sixties because the Lebanese want it that way.
-Alphaboy

If the Lebanese women and Children Hesbollah is hiding behind want Lebanon to be a hell hole, then aren't they really standing in front of Hezbollah? And that being the case, why shouldn't Israel blow the entire place to kingdom come with all the people in it? That's what they want, Alphaboy.

"Hezzbollah was not thrown off by Israel's attacks. They were upset at what they called Israel's "over-reaction" to their provocation. Why? They don't want REAL war. They know they don't stand a chance in one of those."
-Alphaboy

So, you're suggestion is? If not total annihilation, and I can't see where your argument tends against it, "REAL" war, the killing of every single armed person, and then I assume occupation. Do you see that working, or am I misreading you? If you were King of israel, what would you do, I shudder to ask.

"We are fighting brutal, inhuman barbarians. We will not win by fighting like modern, intelligent and sensitive people."
-Alphatollah

So, what should we fight like? Brutal inhuman barbarians as well, or something more nuanced. Brutal semi-human proto-barbarians. Principled human like soldiers with a dash of barbarianism. Since they started it, can't we fight exactly the same way they do? How should we fight? I'd make a guess as to what level of inhuman barbarism you're good with, but I'm so busy wringing my hands.

" Look closely at how they are fighting and you will see their methods should only be deplored."
Alphabismal

I do. Totally. I also deplore ours, especially when they sink to the inhuman, barbaric level of theirs. Like weapons specifically designed to kill indiscriminantly. I also dislike weapons that make really big explosions that kill all sorts of people anywhere around the person you're aiming at, but they are less barbaric, and while I deplore them, I don't deplore them as much and see that their use is sometimes unavoidable even if your aim is not speciffically to terrorize your opponent. See, I like to be better than the 'enemy', even if that's what they want. If they wanted me to shower, I'd do it, even though it's what they want. Cause I like showering. It's okay to do something a bad person wants you to do if it's a good thing. Them wanting you to do it doesn't make it bad. Like not using cluster bombs. Although maybe they want me to use clusster bombs. Crazy people are hard to figure. That's why I don't want my sie to go crazy.

"They. They they they they they."
-Alphabits

Okay, I get it, you don't like them. Me neither. But I think your idea of 'them' is all mishy mashy. There's the Them we agree on, real life terrorists with weapons in hand ready to kill anyone anytime and laugh. But then you have this other them, which is people who live near the boogetman them and don't rise up against the boogeyman them, which is everybody in the countries where the Boogeymen are. And probably they don't like us that much, and seriosuly, lets be reasonable, no matter how much some of them blame the boogeymen terrorists, if we blow up your house and family and lace your olive grown with cluster bombs, it's hard not to dislike us at least a little. So, while your "Utterly" destroying them for thir war crimes (The boogeymen, I'm assuming) how many of the lesser them are you willing to plow under? Say, if we could utterly destroy the Bogeymen, would it be all right if in the process 10% of the rest of the population got made into human pot pie? How about 50%? Say we had to kill everyone, and I'm thinking that's possible, because killing the bad guy is a game it's hartd to stop. Cause you're making more bad guys by being all barbaric and whatnot. And then you need to kill the new ones, cause if you don't, it's not utterly. You've got your mad up, your all afroth at the mouth, take the bull by the horns. Are you willing to kill them all? You seem manly enough.

"I want to see the people of the Middle East, Africa, Asia and South and Central America joining our modern, free, humane and civilized world. I want that so badly that I like it when I see the assholes standing in the way of that being tortured, phosphorized and cluster bombed. "
-Alphamale

Uhm... heh heh... anybody ever tell you you're cute when you get crazy? No? Huh. So now it's not just okay to cluster bomb and torture, you "like" it. It's not a neccesary evil, it's a pleasure. You know how movements with the best possible aims end up going all wiggy French Revolution style?

"Those barbaric acts reflect perfectly my will to finish this and move on to a better tomorrow. "
AlphabaCRAZY

That's why.

"I know our enemy, and they are the enemy of the modern world."
-Alphabawaaaaaah?

Gosh. You know them. You're so... so... manly. I just feel safe in your arms. You do the thinking. I can sleep better at night knowing you are out their protecting me from the enemy you know by posting on message boards about getting off on torturing them.

"A future without a War on Terror is the nightmare. Don't kid yourselves, and treat this just a little seriously, Ok?"
-Alphababoon

OK. Ok. I will. Shhhhhh, now. Put down the lamp. You're giving yourself a nosebleed.
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