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Old May 19th, 2004, 01:33 PM        What the Hell is it With Us and Muslim Weddings?
U.S. Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Party


By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party early Wednesday in western Iraq , killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.

Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.

Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck containing bodies of those allegedly killed.

About a dozen bodies, one without a head, could be clearly seen. but it appeared that bodies were piled on top of each other and a clear count was not possible.

Iraqis interviewed on the videotape said partygoers had fired into the air in a traditional wedding celebration. American troops have sometimes mistaken celebratory gunfire for hostile fire.

"I cannot comment on this because we have not received any reports from our units that this has happened nor that any were involved in such a tragedy," Lt. Col. Dan Williams, a U.S. military spokesman, wrote in an e-mail in response to a question from The Associated Press.

"We take all these requests seriously and we have forwarded this inquiry to the Joint Operations Center for further review and any other information that may be available," Williams said.

The video footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves. A group of men crouched and wept around one coffin.

Al-Ani said people at the wedding fired weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and left. However, al-Ani said, helicopters attacked the area at about 3 a.m. Two houses were destroyed, he said.

U.S. troops took the bodies and the wounded in a truck to Rutba hospital, he said.

"This was a wedding and the (U.S.) planes came and attacked the people at a house. Is this the democracy and freedom that (President) Bush has brought us?" said a man on the videotape, Dahham Harraj. "There was no reason."

Another man shown on the tape, who refused to give his name, said the victims were at a wedding party "and the U.S. military planes came... and started killing everyone in the house."

In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan 's Uruzgan province. An investigative report released by the U.S. Central Command said the airstrike was justified because American planes had come under fire.
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Old May 19th, 2004, 01:51 PM       
Thats what you get for celebrating things with a round of machine gun fire into the air.
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Old May 19th, 2004, 02:19 PM       
Yeah, whereas in America if you fired the same machinegun to celebrate your wedding they might
A) Notice you.
B) Confiscate the weapon.
C) Charge you with a misdemeanor offense.


MAYBE.
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Old May 19th, 2004, 02:24 PM       
Christ... we really need to pull out of Iraq. badly.
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Old May 19th, 2004, 02:37 PM       
Part of me wants to laugh. I can't help it. It's just so absurd.
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Old May 19th, 2004, 02:38 PM       
I did laugh...it's just so fucking typical of the mess that this entire "war on terror" has become. I really hope that our current administration is brought up before a war crimes tribunal...
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Old May 19th, 2004, 02:42 PM       
dav, I can't think of a single American wedding I've been to or heard of that included the firing of automatic weapons. Occasional brandishing of a shotgun by the bride's father, yes. Just no assault weapons.

We really need to work on communication with the people out there.
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Old May 19th, 2004, 02:48 PM       
The title of the thread should be changed to 'How NOT to Win the Hearts and Minds of Ordinary Iraqis'. This is just awful.
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Old May 19th, 2004, 07:01 PM       
Yeah....too bad it isn't true.

*********************

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120373,00.html

Wednesday, May 19, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq — U.S. military officials disputed suggestions that an American helicopter struck a wedding party in western Iraq on Wednesday and said coalition forces staged an attack against suspected foreign fighters.

Arab television and The Associated Press aired video showing the bodies of small children in a truck full of bodies and people digging graves as they quoted witnesses and Iraqi officials who discussed the attack.

But senior military officials in Washington said U.S. and coalition forces conducted a strike on "anti-coalition vehicles" along the Iraqi-Syrian border.

According to the military, at 3 a.m. local time Wednesday, coalition forces conducted an operation against a suspected foreign fighter safe house in the open desert. The house was 25 kilometers from the Syrian border, 85 kilometers southwest of Husaybah (search), military officials said.

Coalition forces came under hostile fire and called for support from the air. After the strike, coalition forces recovered numerous weapons, foreign passports, a SATCOM radio and two million Iraqi and Syrian dinars, military officials said.

The attack killed about 40 people, officials said.

A Coalition Press Information Center official said that since it was carried out during a raid on a suspected safe house, the air strike would therefore be "within the rules of engagement."

That official reiterated that the objective was a suspected hideout, and had no information about a wedding party.

Iraqi officials and others described a very different scenario.

Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi (search), said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.

Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

The Dubai-based Al-Arabiya television reported that more than 20 people were killed and 10 injured in the attack.

The videotape, obtained and aired by Associated Press Television News, showed about a dozen bodies, one without a head. But it appeared that bodies were piled on top of each other and a clear count was not possible.

Iraqis interviewed on the videotape said partygoers had fired into the air in a traditional wedding celebration. American troops have sometimes mistaken celebratory gunfire for hostile fire.

The video footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves. A group of men crouched and wept around one coffin.

Al-Ani said people at the wedding fired weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and left. However, al-Ani said, helicopters attacked the area at about 3 a.m. Two houses were destroyed, he said.

"This was a wedding and the (U.S.) planes came and attacked the people at a house. Is this the democracy and freedom that (President) Bush has brought us?" said a man on the videotape, Dahham Harraj. "There was no reason."

Another man shown on the tape, who refused to give his name, said the victims were at a wedding party "and the U.S. military planes came... and started killing everyone in the house."

Lt. Col. Dan Williams, a U.S. military spokesman, said earlier that the military was investigating.

"I cannot comment on this because we have not received any reports from our units that this has happened nor that any were involved in such a tragedy," Williams wrote in an e-mail in response to a question from The Associated Press.

"We take all these requests seriously and we have forwarded this inquiry to the Joint Operations Center for further review and any other information that may be available," Williams said.

In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan's Uruzgan province. An investigative report released by the U.S. Central Command said the airstrike was justified because American planes had come under fire.

Fox News' Bret Baier, Ian McCaleb and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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Old May 19th, 2004, 07:41 PM       
The war is still a bad idea and we should get the fuck out.
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Old May 19th, 2004, 08:10 PM       
a, just up and leaving can't possibly have any blowback. Its not like we did that to another Muslim back in the early 1980s. I can't imagine how that would come back to bite us.
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Old May 19th, 2004, 08:59 PM       
It would bite Americans but help democratic politicians because it would give them political ammo.
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Old May 20th, 2004, 12:15 AM       
I'm watching the video now. Looks like another one of your guy will lose another head
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Old May 20th, 2004, 10:15 AM       
Nadlo:

From the artcile you just posted:

"That official reiterated that the objective was a suspected hideout, and had no information about a wedding party."

Does that say to you that it wasn't a wedding party? You may we recall, the wedding party we blew up in Afghanistan turned out to be a wedding party. If you thought I was implying that we deliberately took out a wedding party in either Iraq or Afghanistan, that would be your problem. I don't think killing lots of people including children at a wedding party is part of our strategy. Who knows, maybe it will turn out all to be a big lie and really all we killed were terrorists, as opposed to that time in Afghanistan where we killed a lot of people at a wedding party. I'm just saying that if it turns out that we did accidentally kill a lot of epopel at a wedding party, that would turn out to be a bad thing for US PR, not to mention how diifcult it is for all the dead wedding guests. That's the thing about invading and occupying a country and then trying to put down an insurgency, it's puts you in this very, very difficult position where you start out trying to do your job and end up killing a lot of wedding guests. Surviving wedding party guests don't take "oops. Sorry." as being enough, and since we haven't said "Oops. Sorry." yet, like we did in Afghanistan, if it turns out this was a wedding party, I'll bet those folks are really upset.

"Blah, Blah, Blah, Max. They found weapins and money nd sattelite gear."

Everyone in Iraq has weapons. Everyone on the border with Syria has money in both currencys. Everyone in the middle east who lives away from population centers has sattelite gear.

"Uhmmm... Blah, blah, blah, Max."
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Old May 20th, 2004, 11:14 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Raygun
It would bite Americans but help democratic politicians because it would give them political ammo.
like saying that a wedding party was a safe house would give the gop political ammo?
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Old May 20th, 2004, 05:46 PM       
The military ststed that it was a safe house. Are you saying that the military is anti democrat....and if they are, why do you think they are?
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Old May 20th, 2004, 06:25 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Raygun
The military ststed that it was a safe house. Are you saying that the military is anti democrat....and if they are, why do you think they are?
Well, by God, if the military says so, then it must be so! Them's our boys, and they'd never lie to us 'bout nothin'.

The military says a lot of shit, and it's surprising how often what they say is not true. Pull your head out, Raygun.
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Old May 20th, 2004, 06:29 PM       
Ok then, where are the crediblity issues?
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Old May 20th, 2004, 06:32 PM       
Check inside your ass, right next to your head. Maybe some of them are in there.
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Old May 20th, 2004, 06:32 PM       
Ya, but sspad, its not like Muslim leaders over there haven't been caught bullshitting either.
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Old May 20th, 2004, 06:37 PM       
Finally, a decisive justification for EVERYTHING!
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Old May 20th, 2004, 06:38 PM       
I don't disagree with that at all, Blanco. Max said something recently that I think captures the single most important aspect of the occupation: We have to have the credibility, we have to truly rise above the abuse and torture, seperate ourselves from that behavior, if we want to 'win hearts and minds.'

If we are to convince these people that our way of doing things is best, then we have to lead by example, and not bullshit, cover up, abuse power, etc. We have to be the Boy Scouts.
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Old May 20th, 2004, 06:49 PM       
I agree. It just is quite possible that it is a story made by opposition forces.

When you have the word of our military intel vs the word of local rabble rousers, its a tough call, but I'm going to give our guys the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong.
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Old May 20th, 2004, 06:53 PM       
Blanco, you will because you're using common sense have don't have an agenda.

They won't because it hurts their cause if they don't exploit the words of our enemies.
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Old May 20th, 2004, 07:10 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspadowsky
I don't disagree with that at all, Blanco. Max said something recently that I think captures the single most important aspect of the occupation: We have to have the credibility, we have to truly rise above the abuse and torture, seperate ourselves from that behavior, if we want to 'win hearts and minds.'

If we are to convince these people that our way of doing things is best, then we have to lead by example, and not bullshit, cover up, abuse power, etc. We have to be the Boy Scouts.
LOL... yes. and Atlantis sounds like a magical place to live
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