Gay "marriage" has failed in other nations

[Ronnie Raygun]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...3/660zypwj.asp

The End of Marriage in Scandinavia
The "conservative case" for same-sex marriage collapses.
by Stanley Kurtz
02/02/2004, Volume 009, Issue 20


MARRIAGE IS SLOWLY DYING IN SCANDINAVIA. A majority of children in Sweden and Norway are born out of wedlock. Sixty percent of first-born children in Denmark have unmarried parents. Not coincidentally, these countries have had something close to full gay marriage for a decade or more. Same-sex marriage has locked in and reinforced an existing Scandinavian trend toward the separation of marriage and parenthood. The Nordic family pattern--including gay marriage--is spreading across Europe. And by looking closely at it we can answer the key empirical question underlying the gay marriage debate. Will same-sex marriage undermine the institution of marriage? It already has.

More precisely, it has further undermined the institution. The separation of marriage from parenthood was increasing; gay marriage has widened the separation. Out-of-wedlock birthrates were rising; gay marriage has added to the factors pushing those rates higher. Instead of encouraging a society-wide return to marriage, Scandinavian gay marriage has driven home the message that marriage itself is outdated, and that virtually any family form, including out-of-wedlock parenthood, is acceptable.

This is not how the situation has been portrayed by prominent gay marriage advocates journalist Andrew Sullivan and Yale law professor William Eskridge Jr. Sullivan and Eskridge have made much of an unpublished study of Danish same-sex registered partnerships by Darren Spedale, an independent researcher with an undergraduate degree who visited Denmark in 1996 on a Fulbright scholarship. In 1989, Denmark had legalized de facto gay marriage (Norway followed in 1993 and Sweden in 1994). Drawing on Spedale, Sullivan and Eskridge cite
evidence that since then, marriage has strengthened. Spedale reported that in the six years following the establishment of registered partnerships in Denmark (1990-1996), heterosexual marriage rates climbed by 10 percent, while heterosexual divorce rates declined by 12 percent. Writing in the McGeorge Law Review, Eskridge claimed that Spedale's study had exposed the "hysteria and irresponsibility" of those who predicted gay marriage would undermine marriage. Andrew Sullivan's Spedale-inspired piece was subtitled, "The case against same-sex marriage crumbles."

Yet the half-page statistical analysis of heterosexual marriage in Darren Spedale's unpublished paper doesn't begin to get at the truth about the decline of marriage in Scandinavia during the nineties. Scandinavian marriage is now so weak that statistics on marriage and divorce no longer mean what they used to.

Take divorce. It's true that in Denmark, as elsewhere in Scandinavia, divorce numbers looked better in the nineties. But that's because the pool of married people has been shrinking for some time. You can't divorce without first getting married. Moreover, a closer look at Danish divorce in the post-gay marriage decade reveals disturbing trends. Many Danes have stopped holding off divorce until their kids are grown. And Denmark in the nineties saw a 25 percent increase in cohabiting couples with children. With fewer parents marrying, what used to show up in statistical tables as early divorce is now the unrecorded breakup of a cohabiting couple with children.

**continue reading at**
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...3/660zypwj.asp

[glowbelly]

crap.

the us has one of the highest divorce rates in the world already.

and are you saying that it's a GOOD idea for parents to stay together even when their marriage is failing just for the sake of their children?

if you think that there is less of a psychological impact on children who know that their parents hate each other, but stay together for their sake you are really sadly mistaken, ronnie.

[Brandon]

That article was pathetic. The argument rests on an assumption that because marriages are not as stable or frequent in countries that have gay marriage, gay marriage must be the cause. There's a big difference between correlation and causality.

"Marriage is being separated from parenthood." So fucking what? The idea that parents have to be married or that a married couple has to produce children is a cultural construct to begin with. Granted, there are advantages to raising a child in such an environment, but there seems to be an implication here that marriage serves no other function than to produce children. Gee, sounds like you could build a pretty strong case for polygamy out of that rationale. Similarly, should we prohibit infertile couples from getting married? Should we force divorces on marriages that remain childless?

And really, Ronnie, is it the government's job to make sure that everyone is happily married?

[AChimp]

THE GAYS MADE ME GET DIVORCED!

[Stabby]

Orson Scott Card speaks on the subject:

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1.html

I think I used to have respect for him too.

[Emu]

I don't want to read that. I rather enjoyed his books.

[pjalne]

That's the dumbest thing I've read in a while. Like Brandon pointed out, saying heterosexual marriage is failing because of the legalization of gay marriage is like saying the apples in my house rotted because I bought a bunch of bananas and brought them into my home. Gay marriage is not a problem here in Norway. I remember there was some debate back when it was legalized, and afterwards there just hasn't been much talk about it. If you want to find a reason why traditional marriage is crumbling, you have to look elsewhere.

[Dole]

The institution of marriage is failing, full stop......duh.

[davinxtk]

I read about half of the article Ronnie posted, and half of the OSC article.

To sum up my feelings on the subject:


I'm terribly sick of this even being an issue. This is the sort of thing that everyone should have noticed was waaaay to controversial to approach, and backed down from.

I'm not sure what's going to cause more hate-mongering and anti-homosexual sentiment; when it passes or when it fials.

[glowbelly]

exactly. people have been getting married for all the wrong reasons for a long, long time. i actually think that a lot of gay people are getting married now just because they can (rosie o'donnel and her bitch, for example) and that's dangerous too.

it doesn't matter if it's a hetero or homo sexual marriage. it's about the foundation and relationships and to be extremely cheesy: love.

[davinxtk]

I'll say loud and clear that I'm glad my parent's marriage failed; if she had stayed with him because of us, we'd all have more emotional and physical scars than we deserve.

I know that I want to find someone I really love and feel dedication to, and marry that person and grow old with them. It's a dream, though, and I do have to look at it realistically. Marriage is, to me, a legal commitment of a long-term relationship. There's no "sanctity" or "institution" around it anymore. Nothing is sacred in this world anymore. It's 2004, it's childish to expect things to pan out the way Bush, and the others bushing this specifically religious-agenda issue want it to.

Grow up and move on, Republica. You've lost.

[mburbank]

In the rest of that article do they do anything whatsoever to establish any kind fo causal link between unmarried parentage and gay marriage?

Because the portion you posted could, without any detrement to the argument they made have posited rising receding Antartic ice pack as the reason for the decline. You can't simply graph to stats side by side and establish causality. No peer review on the planet would call that research let alone significant data.

We don't have gay marriage here. Divorce rates and children born to singke parents has been steadily rising for quite some time. Can I conclude our rising rates of divorce and single parent households are due to a lack of gay marriage?

And unless you asupport making divorce illegal, I'm not sure I see what merrit this argument would have if it were even tenous as opposed to spurious.

[Rez]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Raygun

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/660zypwj.asp

The End of Marriage in Scandinavia
The "conservative case" for same-sex marriage collapses.
by Stanley Kurtz
02/02/2004, Volume 009, Issue 20


MARRIAGE IS SLOWLY DYING IN SCANDINAVIA. A majority of children in Sweden and Norway are born out of wedlock. Sixty percent of first-born children in Denmark have unmarried parents. Not coincidentally, these countries have had something close to full gay marriage for a decade or more. Same-sex marriage has locked in and reinforced an existing Scandinavian trend toward the separation of marriage and parenthood.

so?

if this is assumed as a problem, and it's debatable if it is, then this article already has got a horrible slant to it.

[mburbank]

Honestly, Naldo. You're not that easily swayed, are you? This article has the credability of a nigerian email.

[Ronnie Raygun]

"This article has the credability of a nigerian email." - Max

It was worth posting it just to see you say that......do you mind if I use it?

[Jeanette X]

Originally Posted by mburbank

In the rest of that article do they do anything whatsoever to establish any kind fo causal link between unmarried parentage and gay marriage?

Because the portion you posted could, without any detrement to the argument they made have posited rising receding Antartic ice pack as the reason for the decline. You can't simply graph to stats side by side and establish causality. No peer review on the planet would call that research let alone significant data.

We don't have gay marriage here. Divorce rates and children born to singke parents has been steadily rising for quite some time. Can I conclude our rising rates of divorce and single parent households are due to a lack of gay marriage?

And unless you asupport making divorce illegal, I'm not sure I see what merrit this argument would have if it were even tenous as opposed to spurious.

Max is right. Saying that gay marriage causes divorce and out of wedlock children because both are happening in Norway is like saying that ice cream sales cause drowning because both increase during the summer.

[mburbank]

You can use that any time you like, but I think you should take it to heart as well.

If you honestly posted that knowing it was a shameful piece of crap just to get a rise out of some of us, more power to you. But if you found it even slightly convincing in any way shape or form... well, I hope you haven't sent any Nigerians money lately.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Max, I thawt dose Nigeran boys was ligit!

[mburbank]

Can I just tell you, like five minutes after I wrote that I got an email that starts:

Dearest Beloved One

I am Mrs. Williams Kokou from Ivory Coast. I was married to Mr.Late Mr Wiliams Kokou who was a contractor with the government of Cote D'Ivoire before he died in the year 2003 after few days in the hospital.The doctor said his death was as a result of poison.




Is there anyone out tere stupid enough to fall for one of these?

[AChimp]

Yes. A few thousand actually. Last I heard, they busted the guy in Australia who started the scam.

Served those dumbasses right, though.

[davinxtk]

What is the intent of the e-mail? Someone asking for money or something?
I don't read half of the e-mail I get, even from people I know. I just send it all to the trash can.
I hate anyone who would e-mail me, anyway.

[Big Papa Goat]

I'd just like to mention that I'm glad you included a visual aid to help us all understand your opinion of this issue davin k thx.