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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old May 18th, 2005, 12:16 PM        Newsweek Goes Spineles
Reatraction, apology, what's next? Maybe they can just close shop.

They're source backed down. That doesn't alter the fact that reports of staff at Guantanamo standing on, flushing and pissing on the Koran have been reported by major papers since 2003. It was widely reported that that 2004 hunger strike at camp X-ray was in response to this sort of behavior. Possibly all the various sources lied and it never happened, and the reporters got it wrong. Things like that happen sometimes. Your sources tell you Iraq has WMD, you go to war over it, thousands die, and hey, it turns out your sources were wrong. Apparently only the media has to offfer retractions and apologies when that kind of thing happens.

In addition, The White House should recieve the medal of Hypocrisy for going holier thna thou on Newsweek, since they don't deny female interogators stripped don and smeared fake menstrual blood on detainees as an interogation tool to break them on the grounds they would be religously humiliated.

It's as if they're saying "Yes, we use religous humilation as an interogation tool. BUT HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST WE USED A KIND OF RELIGOUS HUMILATION YOU CAN'T PROV WE DID! Sure, we would make them think we smeared menstrual blood on them, BUT WE WOULD NVER EVER DESECRATE THEIR HOLY BOOK!! THAT, SIR, IS WHERE WE DRAW THE LINE!"
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Old May 18th, 2005, 01:34 PM       
Max, it's hard to be as outraged when you're laughing. Please stop it.
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Old May 18th, 2005, 03:22 PM       
I was waiting for a topic to pop up about this. Is anyone buying the whole "sorry, story retracted, turns out our source isn't sure about it anymore" poopah?
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Old May 19th, 2005, 01:14 PM       
From Slate:


Is this our biggest problem in Iraq?On May 16, White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan expressed outrage over Newsweek’s story that a U.S. military report was going to acknowledge that guards at the Guantanamo Bay detention center had tried to put a copy of the Quran down a toilet. "The report had real consequences. People have lost their lives," McClellan said. "Our image abroad has been damaged." The next day, after Newsweek had fully retracted the story, McClellan added that the magazine had a responsibility to "help repair the damage" to our reputation in the Muslim world.

Let's see. A mistake … lives lost … America's image abroad damaged. Does any of that sound vaguely familiar? A few instances do spring to mind. Newsweek didn't have anything to do with them. McClellan's boss did.

Item: The Bush Administration endorsed poorly sourced and documented reports by Iraqi defectors that Saddam Hussein possessed and was continuing to develop weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear ones. On the basis of this mistake, Bush led the country into a war, which may or may not be justified depending on your point of view but which almost certainly would not have happened otherwise. So far, approximately 1,600 American military personnel, at least 2,000 Iraqi police and guardsmen, and upwards of 20,000 civilians have died as a direct result. America's reputation for speaking truthfully and acting in accord with international norms was flushed down the latrine, with very real consequences, including for our effort to contain nuclear proliferation in Iran and North Korea. Unlike the Newsweek story, the administration's WMD screw-up was not a good-faith error or the result of simple sloppiness and haste. As the recent Intelligence Commission report showed, the findings of the CIA, Defense Intelligence Agency, and Energy Department stretched the evidence for Iraqi WMD, which was then misused and oversold by former CIA director George Tenet and Vice President Dick Cheney, among others.

Item: At prisons in Afghanistan, U.S. military personnel employed interrogation techniques that are indistinguishable from torture, including "stress positions," sleep deprivation, intimidation by ferocious dogs, and various forms of humiliation. According to Human Rights Watch, there have been at least six deaths in U.S. custody in Afghanistan, four of which have produced military indictments for murder or manslaughter. In Mother Jones, Slate's Emily Bazelon wrote in detail about two of those cases at the Bagram base, where prisoners were evidently beaten or tortured to death. Beyond the prison walls, the open-ended detentions and abuses in Afghanistan served to undermine America's reputation for fair play, adherence to international standards of legality, and decent treatment of prisoners. These abuses may have contributed as much to the recent anti-American riots in Afghanistan as anything in Newsweek.

Item: American military personnel tortured, sexually humiliated, and apparently caused the death by torture of at least one inmate at Abu Ghraib, managing to make the Iraqi prison even more notorious under our management than it was under Saddam Hussein's. Mistakes at Abu Ghraib included extensive and offensive sexual humiliation, such as forcing male prisoners to masturbate, parading them around naked in front of women guards, and photographing them in degrading postures. Again, unlike Newsweek's error, these were in no way "honest" errors at any level. The abuses were the foreseeable consequence, if not the intentional result, of standards and policies promulgated by the Justice Department and the Pentagon, including a ruling that the Geneva Conventions did not apply to prisoners held there, and the authorization of specific interrogation techniques. The jihadists who murdered the American civilian Nick Berg said they were doing so in retaliation for Abu Ghraib. The abuses caught on camera there have done incalculable harm to America's image around the world and handed an enormous propaganda victory to those hostile to the United States.

Item: Here are some things that Scott McClellan does not dispute happening at the Guantanamo detention center: A female interrogator removed some of her clothes and sat in the lap of a detainee who was a devout Muslim; a female interrogator smeared a detainee's face with what she told him was menstrual blood and said the water would be turned off in his cell, so he would be unable to wash; a female interrogator grabbed a prisoner by his genitals; an interrogator gagged with duct tape a prisoner who wouldn't stop chanting Quranic verses; commanders requested permission to use water torture on detainees to make them think they were suffocating; interrogators intimidated prisoners with vicious dogs. The scandalous mistreatment at Guantanamo, along with the denial of any legal rights to detainees, has done enormous damage to America's reputation for respecting human rights and abiding by the rule of law.

None of this is said to excuse a piece of bad journalism by some good journalists. (Disclosure: Slate is owned by the Washington Post Co., which also owns Newsweek.) But let's be clear: Newsweek hardly bears sole responsibility for rioting deaths in Afghanistan and Pakistan, which were fomented by anti-American agitators and reflect both a pathological religious fanaticism and anger over many other issues. What's more, Bush's flacks are in no position to prosecute this case. When it comes to torturing inmates to death, sexually humiliating prisoners, and otherwise doing our best to outrage the religious sensitivities of devout Muslims, Scott McClellan has nothing to say. But faced with an erroneous charge that an American guard might have insulted a copy of the Quran, he turns livid and demands satisfaction. There's something of a pot-and-kettle problem here.

But the problem with the Bush administration excoriating Newsweek's insensitivity to Islam isn't just hypocrisy. There's a larger issue of bad faith and an underlying lack of appreciation for the necessary role of a free and independent press. With increasing forcefulness, Bush has tried to undermine the legitimacy of the media, or at least that subculture within it that shows any tendency to challenge him. When the Bushies say there ought to be more of a check on the Fourth Estate, they aren't really asking for more care and accuracy on the part of journalists. They're expressing frustration that they still have to put up with criticism at all.
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Old May 20th, 2005, 12:38 PM       
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The International Committee of the Red Cross gathered "credible" reports about U.S. personnel at the Guantanamo Bay naval base disrespecting the Quran and raised the issue with the Pentagon several times, a group spokesman said Thursday.

Simon Schorno said the allegations were made by detainees to Red Cross representatives who visited the detention facility throughout 2002 and 2003.
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Old May 20th, 2005, 12:53 PM       
Yep, and Newsweek wasn't the first to break the story either.

http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/22026/
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Old May 20th, 2005, 09:03 PM       
I agree with Max for the most part, however I'd also add a point about the supposed response this drew in places such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

Iraqis were apparently "outraged" over what supposedly had been done to the Koran (or Quran?), sooooo outraged, that they just had to riot, and protest, and scream, and of course, denounce the reliable Great Satin, America.

Yet there doesn't seem to be as much outrage when a "insurgent" blows him or herself up in a market, killing a family. Nor do there seem to be massive protests when a suicide bomb goes off during the funeral procession of that very same family. And maybe I'm just missing it, but how about denouncing Saudi Arabia and their inability to control their own borfder traffic? Aren't many of these suicide bombers coming from there?

How about some outrage over the brutal execution of aid workers and other innocent people? Where are the Shi'ite clerics on that one....?
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Old Jun 4th, 2005, 01:15 PM       
Actually, I meant this thread to be about the AMAZING hypocrisy of the admninistration trying to shove off Afghan unrest on Newsweek.

For instance:

"WASHINGTON-CNN - U.S. military officials say no guard at the Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects flushed a detainee's Quran down the toilet, but they disclosed that a Muslim holy book was splashed with urine."


BUT THAT HAPPENED OUTSIDE A TOILET!! HOW DARE NEWSWEEK CAUSE RIOTING IN AFGHANISTAN WITH TYHEIR IRRESPONSIBLE REPORTING OF A KORAN GETTING URINE ON IT IN A TOILET!! WHEN WILL THIS MEDIA MADNESS END?!

I agree with you Kev, that the level of outrage over abusing a symbol as compared with the level of outrage over the violent endings of lives is, from my personal western perspective, bizarre.
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Old Jun 4th, 2005, 02:44 PM       
From your personal western perspective? I think people in Asia would agree that it is fucked up to kill your own people and riot because America flushed a Koran down a toilet.

Imagine if people of other faiths acted this irrationally? NYC would of been blown to hell when they had that painting of Mary covered in Elephant dung in a museum paid by tax payers. Why are Muslims always given the pass on their behavior? I know the American war machine has been ruining their lives and yadda yadda yadda but like Kev said how about protesting the fucking bombing of Shia mosques in Pakistan and Iraq. It be a safe bet to say that a Koran and other holy objects were destroyed in those incidents. I'm sure that angers Allah more than some infidel abusing a holy book.

Bush's and his administration's response was dumb and overreactive but not as dumb and overreactive as the response of people who rioted and killed people over the abuse of their holy nook.
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Old Jun 4th, 2005, 02:58 PM       
The US has given details of how guards mishandled copies of the Koran at its Guantanamo Bay prison, including a case of one copy being deliberately kicked.
It was part of an inquiry sparked by a magazine report, later retracted, that a Koran was flushed down a toilet.

The US listed five incidents of mishandling at the Cuban facility, including the splashing of urine and water on copies of the Koran.

The report said most of the cases were accidental or unintentional.

It also said that there were a number of cases where detainees had desecrated the Koran by ripping pages, urinating on it and trying to flush it down a toilet.

Water balloons

Brig Gen Jay Hood, commander at Guantanamo, said in his report: "We defined mishandling as touching, holding or the treatment of a Koran in a manner inconsistent with policy or procedure.

He confirmed that five of these alleged mishandling incidents by US guards did take place.

In one instance, a guard was said to have urinated near an air vent.

The wind allegedly blew his urine through the vent, soiling one detainee and his Koran.

According to the report, the guard was reprimanded and sanctioned, and the inmate was given a new uniform and Koran.

Other Korans became wet after night-shift guards had thrown balloons filled with water into a cell block, the report found.

In a third case, an interrogator reportedly apologised to a detainee after stepping on his Koran.

In a fourth incident, a soldier deliberately kicked Islam's holy book.

Finally, a prisoner found a "two-word obscenity" in English written in his copy of the Koran.

Gen Hood concluded that the words might have been written by a guard or by the detainee himself.

He said: "When one considers the many thousands of times detainees have been moved and cells have been searched since detention operations first began here in January 2002, I think one can only conclude that respect for detainee religious beliefs was embedded in the culture of [Guantanamo Bay's task force]."

Pentagon spokesman Lawrence DiRita said there had also been 15 cases of "mishandling and outright desecration by detainees".

The report said these included "using the Koran as a pillow, ripping pages out of the Koran, attempting to flush a Koran down the toilet and urinating on the Koran".

'Lasting damage'

The earlier report in Newsweek magazine of the Koran being flushed down a toilet by guards had sparked protests across the Muslim world.

In Afghanistan, riots resulted in the deaths of at least 15 people.
Thousands rallied in Egypt, Pakistan, Jordan, Lebanon and Malaysia, demanding apologies from the US and punishment for those involved.

The magazine withdrew its story after saying it could no longer corroborate the report.

The inmate who made the original allegation about the Koran being flushed down the toilet had retracted it, said Gen Hood.

The White House rounded on the magazine, saying its report had done "lasting damage" to the US image in the Muslim world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4608949.stm

'Love Quraan, Love Islam, Love Mujahideen' is a sign a child protester is seen holding ina picture on the BBC news website. I'm sorry but I can't feel bad for people who equate the killing of anyone they consider infidels with Islam and their holy book Koran. I don't believe when US spokespeople say we don't purposely abuse the Koran in front of inmates or when they made the inmate think he had an infidel's menstration blood on him but it that is the worse 'torture' they receicve then I could care less. A large portion of the Islamic Middle Eastern world seems to believe in their jihad against the world so why are they surprised that the great Satan would abuse their holy book? They are the ones who declared this a holy war.

Oh yeah and Bush is a dumbass for claiming Newsweek is responisble to worsening the image of the US. Our image was shit before and its still shit now and Newsweek didn't change a thing. All they did was arouse the passions of overly sensitive Muslims. I doubt as long as we are butt buddy allies with Israel and the Palestinian conflict is still going on, our image won't improve very much so if some female wants to strip in front of some inmate to make him feel uncomfortable and wipe fake blood on him I could care less because they won't like us even if we gave each inmate his own mosque, a golden Koran, and American flag toilet paper.


Viva la Mujahideen!
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Old Jun 4th, 2005, 03:35 PM       
Hey guys, the point is on top of all the valid complaints like "they drop bombs on us," "they maintain a military presence in our land," "they bomb wedding parties," etc, the whole "they piss on our bibles" is just icing. Then they can say "they don't just hate us, they hate GOD."

Don't you see how that makes someone more likely to sacrifice their own life? When we bring it to the level of attacking their religious icons, WE up the whole Holy War ante.

It's just not a good idea, and I seriously doubt its effectiveness at obtaining information. I mean, do you think some Catholic POW would spill his guts if his interrogater was shoving a crucifix up a dog's ass? Come on, WTF?
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Old Jun 4th, 2005, 03:46 PM       
I doubt and would bet money that it doesn't gain any information but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

I think the issue of sending inmates to countries that permit real torture is a far bigger deal than the complants of detainees at Guatonomo Bay where they are being subjected to some religious abuse.

I'm pretty sure they already think we hate God.
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Old Jun 4th, 2005, 03:49 PM       
Quote:
In one instance, a guard was said to have urinated near an air vent.

The wind allegedly blew his urine through the vent, soiling one detainee and his Koran.

According to the report, the guard was reprimanded and sanctioned, and the inmate was given a new uniform and Koran.
Was that really the best story they could come up with?
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Old Jun 4th, 2005, 03:54 PM       
Hahaha I thought the same thing.
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Old Jun 6th, 2005, 12:41 PM       
I'll say it again, my point in this post is the administrations hypocrisy in trying to blame Newsweek.

I wasn't trying to say that I find religous fanatacism understandable or tolerable, logical or forgiveable.

More than one thing can go on at once in the world, although the administration would like us to believe it can't.

The United States really can have a record of promoting freedom around the world and also torture people and ignore the Geneva conventions. And it really is true that even if a people are ultra wacko it's still no okay to wee on their holy book. It's especially not okay to act like it's OUTRAGEOUS and IRESPONSIBLE for a magazine to report a holy book got flushed when all it can prove is that a soldier 'accidentally' whizzed into a prisoners cage and that sometimes interogators stripped down to bra and panties and pretended to smear menstrual blood on them. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like my tax dollars being spent on fake menstrual blood and soldiers who accidentally wee wee on their prisoners and whitehouse spokesmen who try to make people think Newsweek is to blame for Muslim Fundamentalists rioting.
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Old Jun 6th, 2005, 08:44 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
Maybe it's just me, but I don't like my tax dollars being spent on fake menstrual blood and soldiers who accidentally wee wee on their prisoners
Oh, the images!



Quote:
and whitehouse spokesmen who try to make people think Newsweek is to blame for Muslim Fundamentalists rioting.
I think muslim fundamentalists are responsible for muslim fundamentalists rioting.

Look at these examples though. The accidental pee pee guy was reported, and moved away from the prisoners. There was accountability. I think it would be great if all the "insurgents" did was pe on inmates and flush the Bible down the toilet. This is all far more tolerable than say chopping off my head. Pee on me all ya like!
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Old Jun 9th, 2005, 05:59 PM       
But the point is not to compare our 'torture' to their horrible treatment of captives. The point is to make the United States the bad guy in the so called 'war' against Islamic fundalmentalism.

I don't like my tax dollars being used for free viagra for level three sex offenders, who served their time but are expected to re-offend, but we do that. Compared to that loophole, peeing on an inmate seems like a good use of tax dollars.
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Old Jun 9th, 2005, 08:35 PM       
Huh?

Anyway, I guess my key point was that even in the horrible "gulag" that is GTMO, there was some degree of accountability and transparency.

I personally think GTMO should be closed, primarily due to the fact that whether these guys are in hell or club med, they shouldn't just be chillin' there for all this time. Prosecute, question, do whatever ya gotta do, but just DO IT. This place has turned into an albatross sort of issue, one which is only hurting our p.r. around the world.

With that being said, these guys get visits from imams, get copies of the Quran, get food contoured to their dietary needs, etc. I think critics of TWAT often use this place for their own political motives, which only perpetuates negative percetion around the globe, and ultimately hurts us all, IMO.
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Old Jun 9th, 2005, 08:59 PM       
Do what though? Can't try them in civilian court like they were american citizens comiting crimes on american soil.

Can't try them in a military tribunal. That might give legitimacy to al Queda. Even if they were an actual military, that is.

Send them back where we caught them?

Send them back to their countries of origin? Thats Pandora's Box right there.

Let them go? Ya, that doesn't seem like an absolutly horrible idea one bit.

So, what do we do with them?
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Old Jun 9th, 2005, 09:30 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
So, what do we do with them?
It's not like we're holding them simply b/c we don't know what to do with them. If that were the case, they could be transfered to a civilian prison like this guy.

If we need them for information, then keep them, do what you gotta do to get it. They don't need to be held specifically in Cuba. The U.S. played politics by setting up this operation in Cuba, b/c it was off our soil, out of the way, out of sight, etc. It backfired, and it's time to shut it down (note: even Bush didn't rule this out in his recent interview with Neil Cavuto).

If we want to see them on trial, hand them over to the World Court. If "giving legitimacy" to Al Qaeda is the price we pay for solving one p.r. nightmare, then so be it. [/url]
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Old Jun 9th, 2005, 09:38 PM       
So, trade one shit storm for a possibly bigger one?

And what if the countries they come from happen to be either

a) a country not part of the IC (like the United States, for example)

b) a country that signed on to the IC under the condition that their own national court takes priority? That country could play the trump card and take the asshole back to throw him a parade.
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Old Jun 17th, 2005, 04:55 PM       
While Newsweek has retracted its deadly tall tale about interrogators shoving the Koran down a toilet to rattle Guantanamo detainees, the magazine’s “flush to judgment” fits what Manhattan Institute scholar Heather MacDonald calls the prevailing “torture narrative.” Possibly harmless Muslims languish without trial in U.S. custody. America’s soul dies a little as each GI’s sucker-punch shatters one more Arab’s jaw. Yadda, yadda, yadda.


“You people are no better than and no different than the Nazi concentration camp guards,” a Red Cross representative said in April at a U.S. detention facility in Iraq, according to a Pentagon source quoted in a May 23 Wall Street Journal editorial. Amnesty International Wednesday called Gitmo “the Gulag of our times.”

Journalists and Bushophobes should stop crying for these Islamo-fascists long enough to read a largely overlooked Pentagon document on Guantanamo detainees. They appear pampered, chatty, and lethal.

“Americans are very kind people,” one English-challenged detainee said in the March 4 paper. “If people say there is mistreatment in Cuba with the detainees, those type speaking are wrong, they treat us like a Muslim not a detainee.”

“I’m in good health and have good facilities of eating, drinking, living, and playing,” remarked another. “The food is good, the bedrooms are clean and the health care is very good.”

In a February 16 Gitmo dispatch, an American Forces Press Service report described the treatment of Camp Delta’s roughly 520 detainees from about 40 nations. Troublemakers wear prison-style orange jumpsuits and mainly are confined to rudimentary accommodations. But those who follow camp rules wear white outfits and exercise seven to nine hours daily, often playing soccer and volleyball. In quieter moments, “chess, checkers and playing cards are the most requested items,” Rhem wrote. As for reading, “A security official explained Agatha Christie books in Arabic are very popular and that camp officials are working to get copies of Harry Potter books in Arabic.”

Detainees eat culturally sensitive meals and follow arrows painted on dorm floors to face Mecca. “Prayer calls are broadcast over loudspeakers five times a day,” Rhem added.

Such conditions may have loosened tongues. The report — drearily titled “JTF-GITMO Information on Detainees” — explains that interrogating these men “has expanded our understanding of al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations and continues to prove valuable.” Among these findings:

Detainees “provide useful information on locations of training compounds and safe houses, terrain features, travel patterns and routes used for smuggling people and equipment, as well as for identifying potential supporters and opponents.” U.S. questioning has “expanded our understanding of the extent of their presence in Europe [and] the United States…”

“Detainees provide information that helps sort out legitimate financial activity from illegitimate terrorist financing operations,” the report says.

One detainee “identified a complex detonation system…that had been used in the Chechen conflict, and now is being used on IEDs [Improvised Explosive Devices] in Iraq, helping U.S. forces to combat this lethal weapon.”

Despite this apparent cooperation, enemy combatants remain viciously anti-American and dedicated to mayhem, even after release.

“I will arrange for the kidnapping and execution of US citizens living in Saudi Arabia,” one detainee threatened, if freed. “They will have their heads cut off.”

“There is no need to ask for forgiveness for killing a Jew,” another said. “Israel should not exist and be removed from Palestine.”

One detainee reportedly warned that “upon his release from GTMO, he would use the Internet to search for the names and faces of MPs so that he could kill them.”

Among 167 detainees freed from Guantanamo, the Pentagon has identified “about 12” who have resumed terrorist operations. Last October, two Chinese engineers were kidnapped in Pakistan. “Former detainee Abdullah Mahsud, their reputed leader, ordered the kidnapping,” the report states.

“Another released detainee assassinated an Afghan judge,” the document continues. “Several former GTMO detainees have been killed in combat with U.S. soldiers and Coalition forces.”

So, a number of Osama bin Laden’s buddies find Gitmo relatively comfortable. They provide intelligence that helps U.S. and European soldiers, spies, and cops keep themselves and us alive. Meanwhile, many detainees ache to get out, so they can kill Americans.

That’s the Pentagon’s story, anyway. They have yet to retract it.



If this is true I'd rather be in Gitmo than a normal federal American prison.
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Old Jun 18th, 2005, 12:47 PM       
Well, I guess our only two choices are to kill them or keep them forever without ever charging them.

Man, it sucks when you only have two choices.

I also hate how it rules out any transperency while keeping them. I mean, if we have no choice but to keep them forever when charging them, that totally rules out having third party monitors. Oh, wait, we DO have third party monitors. The Red Cross. And they said the way we treat the prisoners is tantamount to torture.

But it is a shame that we can't have any agency of our own government looking into things. Oh, wait, we do. The FBI said that the way we were interoigating the prisoners was tantamount to torture.

I guess we should probably kill them. Then we wouldn't havew to deal with all this bad publicity shit.

Look, the point is not how anyone else treats their prisoners. The point is we're America and that'supposed to mean something. We're supposed to be the guys who don't do this.
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Ant10708 Ant10708 is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2005, 06:18 PM       
But we've been doing this shit for decades just not so openly and in such a large matter.

I wish we would have more third parties look at their treatment so we wouldn't have to go by the fucking International Red Cross's dumb statements. We are also like Nazis guarding the concentration camps in Iraq according to one of their employees in Iraq watching our guards. I believe that some of the interrogation methods we were using and probaly still are using are close to wha is classified as torture but I don't buy this shit that they are treated badly on a regular basis. Their food, healthcare and safety is better than most federal prisons I'd imagine from reports I have read. Even the the translater who blew the whistle on some of the interrogation methods which invovled lapdances and the fake menstration blood didn't claim that they were tortured in their cells or treated poorly on their day to day living (if they were ones not being questioned)


Most of the people in Gitmo we caught in Afghanistan. We should just hand them over to them and let them sort the 500 out. I bet some would be executed, more imprisoned for their lives or a long time, and some let go.

Why is everyone so upset about these 500 prisoners we caught during a conflict in Afghanistan being held without charge when we have fucking federal prisons loaded beyond capacity with people whose only crime is being a drug abuser. Or what about prisoners we send to countries we know have a history of using real torture not what we seem to call torture nowadays in america. The guys in Gitmo are more or less going to stay there as long as its open. If we ever close it I only imagine we will just send them to worse countries that will probaly really torture them or jail them in worse conditions for the rest of their lives because Middle Eastern legal systems aren't exactly as sympathetic and unbiased to the accused as our legal system.

I have a feeling that most of these 500 guys have to be fairly dangerous. We have released a bunch to their Middle Eastern countries where a few went sour but more didn't and others we released back to England and Austrialia and they are living normally but being monitored by those governments.
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